When did the Old Covenant truly "disappear" and end?

mkgal1 said:

You just did

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Can you add it to the Op?

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

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Jesus abolished the Old Covenant and instituted the New Covenant on the cross. The old covenant ended when the last generation of genuinely circumcised Jews died off. That is, those who were circumcised before Calvary.

claninja said:

The main point was that there are those who are not full preterist that believe in the present reality of the new heavens and new earth. This is similar to the common amil teaching of the "already but not yet".



I find it disturbing that you keep avoiding to address Luke 23's quotation of hosea in regards to 1st century Jerusalem, which corroborates revelation 6's quotation of hosea in fulfillment of the 6th seal.

I find it disturbing that as a self proclaimed Amil, you agree with the teachings of scofield that "genea" refers to stock or race.

I find it disturbing that although you say you use scripture to interpret scripture, the evidence of your posts suggests that is not always true.



Its ending began at the cross

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He is taking away (present tense verb) the first to establish the second



At the cross, in Christ

Mark 14:24 he said to them, “This is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice for many



When Christ came in the flesh

hebrews 9:26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.



Depends on what is meant by "the last days". I hold it to the mean the last days of the old covenant age. For the old obsolete covenant was soon to vanish away in the 1st century

Hebrews 8:13 When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.



1st coming of Jesus leading up to the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come



The resurrection of the just and unjust



Either at creation or after the flood.



the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple



passing away of the old heavens and old earth



At Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit.



the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel, at the destruction of the temple

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Before I reply. Can you add these 2 questions to your post and respond?

When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

mkgal1 said:

I just did, but to be honest about my opinion, I don't believe that having others answer a list of questions results in a "discussion" - it's more of an inquisition. I prefer discussion to, instead, come out of a few questions to prompt discussion. But.....the questions are there. I'm not going to hold posters to answer them like a pop quiz, though.

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Thanks! Appreciate!

Al Touthentop said:

In spite of the fact that Paul wrote it did?

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Laws/commands expire naturally for reasons described in post 13. They only expire in a superficial sense because at core all the laws command the same thing - love. This kind of thing has been happening since the beginning of time and thus does not indicate any CORE differences between OT and NT saints.

Can you establish any meaningful differences between OT and NT saints? I'm not aware of any.

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?
When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

Click to expand...

Hebrews 9:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

These two verses explain that every "Last will and testament" is of no use until the testator dies. A person can change his or her will as many times as they like, but however the will reads at their death is the only one that matters. Anyone who tries to plead their case before the Great Judge using an Old "Will" Testament will be turned over to the bailiff and thrown out of court. Jesus came into this world and re-wrote his will, then He died.

When did the old covenant end?

When Christ was crucified.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Ephesians 2: 14-16
"For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

When did the new covenant begin?

When Christ died.

Hebrews 9:16-22
"For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. "


When did "the last days" begin?

We might put them on the day of Pentecost itself but they most likely span the time of Jesus ministry and the beginnings of the church. Peter tells us that what the Jews in the temple were witnessing on the Day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy which said that it would occur in "the last days."

When will "the last days" finish?

Hard to say because there is no specific end to the era of the last days. That phrase is used to refer to more than one set of 'last days' and it isn't appropriate to assume that every time we encounter that phrase it means the exact same thing. We have some mentions of "the time of the Gentiles" but we can't necessarily construe this to mean the end of the 'last days' Joel prophesied would come. In general, I think it refers to the time of the end of the covenant which was prophesied to come even in Exodus.


When is the "end of the age"?

Apparently, if we trust what Jesus says in response to the apostle's questions about it, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

When is the day of redemption?

The day we are resurrected and redeemed (claimed) by Christ.

Ephesians 4:20
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

When did "this age" arrive?

Another one of those phrases that is often treated as a univocal - but which has different meanings. Jesus used the term in Matthew to describe the present age in which he lived.

Matthew 12:32
Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

In one place Jesus compares what happens in 'this age' to the resurrection. He was speaking of the age in which he currently lived (near demonstrative pronoun) but we can assume that the resurrection still hasn't occurred since in our age sons marry and are given in marriage.

Luke 20:34-36
Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


When does "this age" end?

If we treat this phrase to be indicative of our own current age, then it ends when our generation dies unless we happen to be alive on the Last Day.

When do the new heavens and new earth right?

According to Revelation, after the Judgement.

Revelation 20:11-15 Revelation 21:1-6

When did the kingdom of God begin?

When Christ was made king of the kingdom. Peter preaches that it was Christ's death and resurrection which caused him to be raised up as king. Some say that this couldn't have happened until his ascension but Peter is pretty clear that it was his resurrection which refers to his 'raising' to his power.

Acts 2:29-31
"Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

When does "the age to come" arrive?

One would have to know the context of the scripture to which you are referring. An 'age' in those times referred to an indeterminate, long period of time which could be one generation or several.

When is "the last day" of "the last days"?

The day of the resurrection of all souls.

What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

The resurrection of all souls and the final judgement.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 35:31-33
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

JAL said:

Laws/commands expire naturally for reasons described in post 13. They only expire in a superficial sense because at core all the laws command the same thing - love. This kind of thing has been happening since the beginning of time and thus does not indicate any CORE differences between OT and NT saints.

Can you establish any meaningful differences between OT and NT saints? I'm not aware of any.

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Not really the point. Paul wrote that the old covenant had been abolished in several of his letters. Coming up with some nifty anecdote which argues with the scripture is a useless endeavor in my opinion. Better to accept what is written, as written, then to argue with it and read it in some other esoteric manner. Totally bad practice not accepting the scriptures as written, especially in the places where there really is no controversy.

mkgal1 said:

This topic comes up often - and there seems to be a lot of controversy (and even lack of teaching in the churches I've attended over the span of many decades) over the question.

In another thread - these specific questions were asked:

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?
When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

Hebrews states:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
​

Has the Old Covenant disappeared? If so......when?

Click to expand...

I have a typo in one of my questions: "When do the new heavens and new earth arrive?" Could you amend for the sake of clarity? Thanks!

Al Touthentop said:

Not really the point. Paul wrote that the old covenant had been abolished in several of his letters. Coming up with some nifty anecdote which argues with the scripture is a useless endeavor in my opinion. Better to accept what is written, as written, then to argue with it and read it in some other esoteric manner. Totally bad practice not accepting the scriptures as written, especially in the places where there really is no controversy.

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Ok to paraphrase, the answer to my qustion is, "No, I don't see any meaningful distinctions between OT and NT saints". Thanks for confirming. So while you guys carry on in a debate that has no meaningful import, splitting theological hairs, I'll go find something more important to do. Thanks again and - cheers !

JAL said:

Ok to paraphrase, the answer to my qustion is, "No, I don't see any meaningful distinctions between OT and NT saints". Thanks for confirming. So while you guys carry on in a debate that has no meaningful import, splitting theological hairs, I'll go find something more important to do. Thanks again and - cheers !

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If accepting the scriptures as written is not meaningful or important then of course find something more important.

Al Touthentop said:

If accepting the scriptures as written is not meaningful or important then of course find something more important.

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Funny you said earlier I was missing the point. Actually you're missing the point. You're reading superficially. Once you understand the REAL REASON that law-covenants expire (changes in circumstances) - once you see that it really has nothing to do with the concept of covenant itself - you're less likely to repeat the historically frequent mistake of persisting outmoded ceremonies. Two thousand years after the apostles, the church is still performing water-baptism! And she has no clue that it's a stench and an offense in God's nostrils! She doesn't know the real reason it was instituted, nor why it would expire due to changing circumstances. But hey, like you said, I'm the one missing the point. Fine.

The OC, while made obsolete by a new and better one, was never revoked. It's simply fulfilled, the right way, by the NC.

mkgal1 said:

When did the old covenant end?

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Moses gave the law. The writer Moses indicated a prophet better than himself would come after him. We are not supposed to kill, steal, lie or commit adultery like Moses recommended. Other rules and punishments are obsolete

When did the kingdom of God begin?

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Jesus testified the Kingdom of God is within a person. Some received the Holy Spirit when they heard a believer preaching. Not all can receive it.

mkgal1 said:

When did the old covenant end?
When did the new covenant begin?
When did "the last days" begin?
When will "the last days" finish?
When is the "end of the age"?
When is the day of redemption?
When did "this age" arrive?
When does "this age" end?
When do the new heavens and new earth right?
When did the kingdom of God begin?
When does "the age to come" arrive?
When is "the last day" of "the last days"?
What occurs on "the last day" of "the last days"?

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Old Covenant ended with Jesus
Started with Jesus
Unconfirmed
Unconfirmed
Depends on you
I assume AD is the best way to describe "this age"
maybe when Jesus returns
Don't understand
Maybe your afterlife or Jesus' 2nd coming
how would anyone know that?
how would anyone know that?

JAL said:

Two thousand years after the apostles, the church is still performing water-baptism! And she has no clue that it's a stench and an offense in God's nostrils!

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At what point did what Jesus and the apostles preached become a stench?

Al Touthentop said:

At what point did what Jesus and the apostles preached become a stench?

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LOL. You're referring to the same Jesus who gave Abraham a covenant of circumcision - now expired, right? The same Jesus who instituted a plethora of ceremonies via Moses - clearly expired now, right? The same Jesus who told Namaan to baptize himself in water 7 times - right? Do you still practice that ceremony today? The same Jesus who later directed John to perform water baptism - 2000 years ago !!!!! Is that the Jesus you are referring to? Just want to make sure we're referring to the same person.

JAL said:

LOL. You're referring to the same Jesus who gave Abraham a covenant of circumcision - now expired, right? The same Jesus who instituted a plethora of ceremonies via Moses - clearly expired now, right? The same Jesus who told Namaan to baptize himself in water 7 times - right? Do you still practice that ceremony today? The same Jesus who later directed John to perform water baptism - 2000 years ago !!!!! Is that the Jesus you are referring to? Just want to make sure we're referring to the same person.

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Baptism was never a ceremony. It was a one time event which, the apostles taught, put those who were baptized into Christ.

So when did the gospel expire? I've read my bible many times and have never read that it had an expiration date.