The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

The Word of God, quoted in the following links to posts in this thread, reveals freewill is treacherously rebellious and a damnable lie.

Free-willians false claim that God is responsible sin in sinners (what some call cognitive dissonance) post in this thread

Free-willians are outside of saving grace for they cannot please God (Romans 8:8) as well as they cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14) unless God opens their eyes post

the error of Armenians/Free-willians exposed post

The accurate grammatical structure of Revelation 13:8 analyzed post, and do not forget the parallel in Revelation 17:8!

the meaning of "receive" post with application in Acts 2:38-39 and the subsequent we believers receive the Holy Spirit post

the "whoever believes" in John 3:16 is constrained by "believe" definition in John 6:29 and the "world" in John 17:9 has implications for "world" in John 3:16 post

"choose whom you will serve" in Joshua 24:15 does not indicate ability to serve God post

repentance is of/by/from God in man with accurate BIBLICAL CITATIONS post

"free will" does not occur in the New Testament except in Philemon 1:14 as an illusory metaphor post

The "you" occurrances in John 15:16 is the same as "you" occurrances in John 15:13-15 and John 15:16 and John 14:16-17 which are for all us believers in all time post. This is Love!

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

renniks said:
So they were unwilling because God causes them to be unwilling, then God lamants thier unwillingness? Wow. Just insane, the length you will go to for your pagan theology.

The unbelievers are dead in trespasses and sins walking according to the course of this world (Ephesians 2:1-2), and thus is the person's default condition, so, apart from a mercifully loving act of God in a person, the just God will render the wrath of God to the unbelievers.

And see Free-willians false claim that God is responsible sin in sinners (what some call cognitive dissonance) post in this thread.

In this thread, God had me tell the true and accurate words that God knows the names of all people to be saved from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), yet you keep trying to add to and subtract from scripture to achieve a choice toward God by the creature that is not in scripture resulting in a capital offense - the eternal death penalty (Revelation 22:18-19).

Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). No exceptions. King Jesus reigns! I thank Jesus, my Lord and my God, for lovingly choosing me.

May Lord Jesus open your eyes to Who He is.

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

renniks said:
If there's no choice, a command is meaningless.

Your statement is not Biblical. Your statement is false.

The Apostle Paul wrote "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not
have known about coveting if the Law had not said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COVET.'" (Romans 7:7).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

God saves by God's grace for God's glory! Praise the Lord Jesus!

renniks · Dec 27, 2019

Kermos said:
According to Free-willian/Armenian theology, specifically that God created everybody - all humans in all time; therefore, extrapolating from your intellectual post, all those who do not choose Jesus were created by God, so they are subject to the wrath of God because they did not choose Jesus. Your theology and your intellectualizing post argue against each other - that is you against you. Some call that cognitive dissonance, but the next paragraph gives a scriptural meaning to it.

Still doesn't make any sense. Yes, God created everyone. Yes, some choose hell. This is all scriptural, so what is your point? By, the way, it's Arminian, not Srmenian. Many armenians are probably arminians, though.

renniks · Dec 27, 2019

Kermos said:
You attempt to break the Light since you claim to choose Jesus at some level which means your "choice" directly opposes the words of the Lord Jesus, the Light (John 1:14), "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), for the Light says "everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:20), and it is evil to oppose the Word of God, the Light, who says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Jesus told his disciples he chose them. Calvinists read the word "chose" totally different than other Christians. Instead of just seeing it as God choosing those who are willing, they add on a whole bunch of baggage, like God chose people for salvation and chose others for damnation with no conditions. You are adding to scripture what is not there. Again, Jesus chose Judas. Judas could not have been chosen for salvation, because he betrayed Jesus. So, the chosen are not irresistibly chosen for salvation. They can choose to remain in the vine or fall away. Again, we are among the fruit the disciples produced.

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Why is Jesus praying for us? Because we can and do mess up and stumble and go our own way, because we have that option. We are not irresistibly compelled to obedience.

renniks · Dec 27, 2019

Kermos said:
Your statement is not Biblical. Your statement is false.

“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; you are its object of desire, but you must master it.”

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

renniks said:
“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; you are its object of desire, but you must master it.”

No "choice" nor conjugates of "choice" therein.

No "free will" explicitly nor implicitly therein.

There are conditionals therein. A conditional is normally an IF/THEN construct.

IF you_do_this THEN that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

The same goes for a command, that is, a command does not convey ability to carry out the command.

Neither a conditional nor a command convey choice unless specifically stated.

Free-willians add choice to conditionals and commands regularly as I've encountered, so Free-willians are adding to Scripture which is equivalent to unbelief in the Word of God and carries the severe consequences (Revelation 22:18-19).

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

renniks said:
Jesus told his disciples he chose them. Calvinists read the word "chose" totally different than other Christians. Instead of just seeing it as God choosing those who are willing, they add on a whole bunch of baggage, like God chose people for salvation and chose others for damnation with no conditions. You are adding to scripture what is not there. Again, Jesus chose Judas. Judas could not have been chosen for salvation, because he betrayed Jesus. So, the chosen are not irresistibly chosen for salvation. They can choose to remain in the vine or fall away. Again, we are among the fruit the disciples produced.

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Why is Jesus praying for us? Because we can and do mess up and stumble and go our own way, because we have that option. We are not irresistibly compelled to obedience.

Since I've told you that I'm not a Calvinist that first paragraph is superfluos, so I am moving on to the second paragraph of your post.

You ask "Why is Jesus praying for us", but you are making a false assumption which is manifested in the balance of that paragraph (your last paragrap).

See that earlier in the Christ's prayer, Lord Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9). CLEARLY, JESUS IS NOT ASKING FOR EVERYBODY.

The Lord immediately adds "but of those whom You have given Me" (John 17:9). CLEARLY JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY ASKING FOR THE WE PEOPLE WHOM THE FATHER HAS GIVEN TO JESUS.

According to Free-willian theology, several flaws manifest based on unscriptural assumptions/additions and/or subtractions:

A) the Free-willian person imagines making a choice toward Jesus thus they imagine "giving" themselves to Jesus WHICH IS CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD IN JOHN 17:9.

B) the Free-willian person imagines their option to select Jesus without the foreknowledge of God; in other words, the Free-willian does not believe that they are predestined by God to be God's; in other words, God does not know who will choose God and who will not choose God.

B - continued) There is a fatal flaw with this Free-willian point.

B - continued) Scripture states that all "whose names" (Revelation 13:8) "been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) shall come into the new Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2, Revelation 21:27); THEREFORE, GOD KNOWS THE NAMES OF EVERY PERSON THAT GOD WILL SAVE AND HAS SAVED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!

C) Throughout the passage of John 17:20-26 that you posted, you imagine the phrase "choose to believe", YET THE WORD "CHOOSE" AND IT'S CONJUGATES ARE ABSENT.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" does not occur in Scripture ANYWERE IN THE BIBLE.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" by a mere man is brazenly contradictory to the LORD JESUS'S WORDS OF "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME" IN JOHN 15:16.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" by a mere man is brazenly contradictory to the Lord Jesus's words of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in John 6:29 IN WHICH LORD JESUS DEFINES BELIEF/FAITH IN GOD AS THE WORK OF GOD.

D) Time to focus on "THROUGH THEIR MESSAGE" within the phrase "who will believe in me through their message" within the sentence "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message" (John 17:20).

D - continued) The supper covered in John chapters 13 - 17 is part of JOHN'S MESSAGE.

D - continued) The words of Jesus in John 17:20 and John 15:16 occur at the supper.

D - continued) THEREFORE, THE WORDS OF JESUS "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) APPLY TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS PART OF "THROUGH THEIR MESSAGE" (JOHN 17:20) - SPECIFICALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN'S MESSAGE.

D - continued) FURTHERMORE, JESUS SAYS "YOU ARE MY FRIENDS" AND TALKS AT LENGTH ABOUT BEING FRIENDS WITH HIS FOLLOWERS IN JOHN 15:13-15, SO THIS APPLIES TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS PART OF "THROUGH THEIR MESSAGE" (JOHN 17:20) - SPECIFICALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN'S MESSAGE.

D - continued) The friend of Jesus passage (John 15:13-15) immediately precedes the words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); THEREFORE, DENIAL OF EITHER JOHN 15:16-19 OR JOHN 15:13-15 AUTOMATICALLY DENIES THE OTHER PASSAGE BECAUSE IN BOTH JESUS TALKS TO "YOU".

As the evidence clearly indicates, Jesus Christ is not praying for Free-willians.

renniks · Dec 27, 2019

Kermos said:
A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Then why tell him he could do different? You make God a liar.

renniks · Dec 27, 2019

Kermos said:
As the evidence clearly indicates, Jesus Christ is not praying for Free-willians.

He prayed for all who will believe. Are you seriously saying only determinists can be saved?

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

renniks said:
Then why tell him he could do different? You make God a liar.

Here is the passage again:

"Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Genesis 4:6-7)

God did not say that Cain "could" do anything.

You use the word "could" to convey "ability to choose", yet it is not there.

The conditional logic statement does not indicate ability for Cain, rather the conditional logic statement indicates an action.

We know that Cain's action was to "not do well" because it is written "Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him" (Genesis 4:8).

Action. Not choice. Action.

I state that the Word of God is True. God is True!

Kermos · Dec 27, 2019

renniks said:
He prayed for all who will believe. Are you seriously saying only determinists can be saved?

Only "all who will beleive" and all who are believing and all who have believed can be saved because God must impart faith/belief in believers (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).

Belief/faith in Jesus Whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) for so says the Word of God named Jesus Christ!

Only we people that God raises according to God's rules are saved such as God does the choosing for Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

God can open the eyes of Free-willians to understand salvation in man is entirely a work of God by God's grace for God's glory - that it is not a work by man - that it is not a choice by a man because a choice is a work by man. A Free-willian that beholds such Truth would cease being a Free-willian.

renniks · Dec 28, 2019

Kermos said:
Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." (Genesis 4:6-7)

God did not say that Cain "could" do anything.

Lol, Why would you tell someone to do well, if they can't do well? It makes the whole conversation pointless. He tells Cain what he must do, that certainly implies that Cain is capable of doing it.

renniks · Dec 28, 2019

Kermos said:
God can open the eyes of Free-willians to understand salvation in man is entirely a work of God by God's grace for God's glory - that it is not a work by man - that it is not a choice by a man because a choice is a work by man. A Free-willian that beholds such Truth would cease being a Free-willian.

Just answer the question. Are Christians who believe in free will, which would be the vast majority of Christians, saved or aren't they?

Kermos · Dec 28, 2019

renniks said:
Lol, Why would you tell someone to do well, if they can't do well? It makes the whole conversation pointless. He tells Cain what he must do, that certainly implies that Cain is capable of doing it.

"Implies" is you adding to scripture again (Revelation 22:18-19).

The logic construct does not convey ability, so you are in error.

The Apostle Paul wrote "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Roman 15:4).

Thus, we find Paul attributing the account of Cain and Abel for instruction, and that instruction is that actions (fruit) shows the nature of the person thus Paul is in accord with Lord Jesus when the Christ says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)!

Kermos · Dec 28, 2019

renniks said:
Just answer the question. Are Christians who believe in free will, which would be the vast majority of Christians, saved or aren't they?

This clearly addresses your question.

Here is the passage that you brought cited very recently, in order to refresh precisely where this discussion is at the moment.

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, [are] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them" (John 17:20-26).

See that earlier in the Christ's prayer, Lord Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9). CLEARLY, JESUS IS NOT ASKING FOR EVERYBODY.

The Lord immediately adds "but of those whom You have given Me" (John 17:9). CLEARLY JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY ASKING FOR THE WE PEOPLE WHOM THE FATHER HAS GIVEN TO JESUS.

According to Free-willian theology, several flaws manifest based on unscriptural assumptions/additions and/or subtractions:

A) the Free-willian person imagines making a choice toward Jesus thus they imagine "giving" themselves to Jesus WHICH IS CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD IN JOHN 17:9.

B) the Free-willian person imagines their option to select Jesus without the foreknowledge of God; in other words, the Free-willian does not believe that they are predestined by God to be God's; in other words, God does not know who will choose God and who will not choose God.

B - continued) There is a fatal flaw with this Free-willian point.

B - continued) Scripture states that all "whose names" (Revelation 13:8) "been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) shall come into the new Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2, Revelation 21:27); THEREFORE, GOD KNOWS THE NAMES OF EVERY PERSON THAT GOD WILL SAVE AND HAS SAVED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!

C) Throughout the passage of John 17:20-26 that you posted, you imagine the phrase "choose to believe", YET THE WORD "CHOOSE" AND IT'S CONJUGATES ARE ABSENT.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" does not occur in Scripture ANYWERE IN THE BIBLE.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" by a mere man is brazenly contradictory to the LORD JESUS'S WORDS OF "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME" IN JOHN 15:16.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" by a mere man is brazenly contradictory to the Lord Jesus's words of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in John 6:29 IN WHICH LORD JESUS DEFINES BELIEF/FAITH IN GOD AS THE WORK OF GOD.

D) Time to focus on "THROUGH THEIR WORD" within the phrase "those also who believe in Me through their word" within the sentence "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

D - continued) The supper covered in John chapters 13 - 17 is part of JOHN'S WORD.

D - continued) The words of Jesus in John 17:20 and John 15:16 occur at the supper.

D - continued) The supper covered in John chapters 13 - 17 is part of JESUS' WORD - THE WORD OF GOD!

D - continued) THEREFORE, THE WORDS OF JESUS "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) APPLY TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS PART OF "THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20) - SPECIFICALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN'S WORD.

D - continued) FURTHERMORE, JESUS SAYS "YOU ARE MY FRIENDS" AND TALKS AT LENGTH ABOUT BEING FRIENDS WITH HIS FOLLOWERS IN JOHN 15:13-15, SO THIS APPLIES TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS PART OF "THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20) - SPECIFICALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN'S WORD.

D - continued) The friend of Jesus passage (John 15:13-15) immediately precedes the words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); THEREFORE, DENIAL OF EITHER JOHN 15:16-19 OR JOHN 15:13-15 AUTOMATICALLY DENIES THE OTHER PASSAGE BECAUSE IN BOTH JESUS TALKS TO "YOU".

D - continued) Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and WITH THIS LORD JESUS INTRICATELY TIES SALVATION WITH HIS CHOOSING BETWEEN JOHN 15:19 AND JOHN 15:16.

As the evidence clearly indicates, Jesus Christ is not praying for Free-willians.

We Christians do not practice lawlessness by adding to, subtracting from, nor denying the Word of God (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27).

We Christians abide in the Word of God (Matthew 7:24-25), and we are secure in the Hand of Christ Jesus (John 10:28).

Only we people that God raises according to God's rules are saved such as God does the choosing for Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

God can open the eyes of Free-willians to understand salvation in man is entirely a work of God by God's grace for God's glory - that it is not a work by man - that it is not a choice by a man because a choice is a work by man. A Free-willian that beholds such Truth would cease being a Free-willian.

renniks · Dec 28, 2019

Kermos said:
The Apostle Paul wrote "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Roman 15:4).

Yes, and it is also real history. God really did tell Cain what he must do. Let's say I tell my child, as a baby, that he must clean his room, although he's incapable of doing so. What kind of father would I be? God is a good father, not a sadistic one. He doesn't tell us we must do something he will not enable us to do.

renniks · Dec 28, 2019

Kermos said:
God can open the eyes of Free-willians to understand salvation in man is entirely a work of God by God's grace for God's glory - that it is not a work by man - that it is not a choice by a man because a choice is a work by man. A Free-willian that beholds such Truth would cease being a Free-willian.

Just answer the stinkin' question. I don't need a repeat of your twisted logic.

renniks · Dec 28, 2019

Kermos said:
This clearly addresses your question.

Here is the passage that you brought cited very recently, in order to refresh precisely where this discussion is at the moment.

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, [are] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them" (John 17:20-26).

See that earlier in the Christ's prayer, Lord Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world" (John 17:9). CLEARLY, JESUS IS NOT ASKING FOR EVERYBODY.

The Lord immediately adds "but of those whom You have given Me" (John 17:9). CLEARLY JESUS IS SPECIFICALLY ASKING FOR THE WE PEOPLE WHOM THE FATHER HAS GIVEN TO JESUS.

According to Free-willian theology, several flaws manifest based on unscriptural assumptions/additions and/or subtractions:

A) the Free-willian person imagines making a choice toward Jesus thus they imagine "giving" themselves to Jesus WHICH IS CONTRARY TO THE WORD OF GOD IN JOHN 17:9.

B) the Free-willian person imagines their option to select Jesus without the foreknowledge of God; in other words, the Free-willian does not believe that they are predestined by God to be God's; in other words, God does not know who will choose God and who will not choose God.

B - continued) There is a fatal flaw with this Free-willian point.

B - continued) Scripture states that all "whose names" (Revelation 13:8) "been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 17:8) shall come into the new Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2, Revelation 21:27); THEREFORE, GOD KNOWS THE NAMES OF EVERY PERSON THAT GOD WILL SAVE AND HAS SAVED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!

C) Throughout the passage of John 17:20-26 that you posted, you imagine the phrase "choose to believe", YET THE WORD "CHOOSE" AND IT'S CONJUGATES ARE ABSENT.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" does not occur in Scripture ANYWERE IN THE BIBLE.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" by a mere man is brazenly contradictory to the LORD JESUS'S WORDS OF "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME" IN JOHN 15:16.

C - continued) The phrase "choose to believe" by a mere man is brazenly contradictory to the Lord Jesus's words of "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in John 6:29 IN WHICH LORD JESUS DEFINES BELIEF/FAITH IN GOD AS THE WORK OF GOD.

D) Time to focus on "THROUGH THEIR WORD" within the phrase "those also who believe in Me through their word" within the sentence "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

D - continued) The supper covered in John chapters 13 - 17 is part of JOHN'S WORD.

D - continued) The words of Jesus in John 17:20 and John 15:16 occur at the supper.

D - continued) The supper covered in John chapters 13 - 17 is part of JESUS' WORD - THE WORD OF GOD!

D - continued) THEREFORE, THE WORDS OF JESUS "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) APPLY TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS PART OF "THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20) - SPECIFICALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN'S WORD.

D - continued) FURTHERMORE, JESUS SAYS "YOU ARE MY FRIENDS" AND TALKS AT LENGTH ABOUT BEING FRIENDS WITH HIS FOLLOWERS IN JOHN 15:13-15, SO THIS APPLIES TO ALL WHO BELIEVE ON CHRIST BECAUSE IT IS PART OF "THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20) - SPECIFICALLY THE APOSTLE JOHN'S WORD.

D - continued) The friend of Jesus passage (John 15:13-15) immediately precedes the words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); THEREFORE, DENIAL OF EITHER JOHN 15:16-19 OR JOHN 15:13-15 AUTOMATICALLY DENIES THE OTHER PASSAGE BECAUSE IN BOTH JESUS TALKS TO "YOU".

D - continued) Lord Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), and WITH THIS LORD JESUS INTRICATELY TIES SALVATION WITH HIS CHOOSING BETWEEN JOHN 15:19 AND JOHN 15:16.

As the evidence clearly indicates, Jesus Christ is not praying for Free-willians.

We Christians do not practice lawlessness by adding to, subtracting from, nor denying the Word of God (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 7:26-27).

We Christians abide in the Word of God (Matthew 7:24-25), and we are secure in the Hand of Christ Jesus (John 10:28).

Only we people that God raises according to God's rules are saved such as God does the choosing for Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

God can open the eyes of Free-willians to understand salvation in man is entirely a work of God by God's grace for God's glory - that it is not a work by man - that it is not a choice by a man because a choice is a work by man. A Free-willian that beholds such Truth would cease being a Free-willian.

BTW, the fact that you are arguing with me about all this proves you believe in free will. It's ok, every one does. You probably look both ways when you cross the street too.

Kermos · Dec 28, 2019

renniks said:
Yes, and it is also real history. God really did tell Cain what he must do. Let's say I tell my child, as a baby, that he must clean his room, although he's incapable of doing so. What kind of father would I be? God is a good father, not a sadistic one. He doesn't tell us we must do something he will not enable us to do.

In effect, you persist with "implies" which is you persist in adding to scripture (Revelation 22:18-19).

The logic construct does not convey ability, so you are in error.

The Apostle Paul wrote "For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Roman 15:4).

Thus, we find Paul attributing the account of Cain and Abel for instruction, and the instruction includes actions and their results. Account means real history.

Actions are fruits.

Fruit is the outward mainifestation of the inward dispostion.

Fruit shows the nature of the person whether holy or carnal - Light or darkness.

Cain's fruit was darkness, thus we find that Cain killed Abel (Genesis 4:6-8).

Fruit is addressed by Lord Jesus Who said "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn [bushes] nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-20).

Good fruit is restricted by Lord Jesus when the Christ says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)!

By the way, your example of your child proves the point that a command does not convey ability.

By the way, God is mercifully loving to save any of the rebellious persons!

The first nature of all men is enmity against God; moreover, that first nature, the default nature, the enemy against God nature is sometimes referred to as the sin nature.

That is just like the first man, Adam, from the earth, earthy (1 Corinthians 15:47).

Through Adam sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men (Romans 5:12).

Respecting the first nature all people have no choice in the matter, all people enter life with the sin nature.

People in the first nature are incapable of pleasing God (Romans 8:8).

People of the sin nature cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

God's regeneration of men in the renewing by the Holy Spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)

By the act of God, the old things passed away while the new creature has come (2 Corinthians 5:17).

The "old things" is the first nature also called the sin nature, the earthy - not in Christ.

The "new creature" is made holy by the Holy God named Jesus Christ!

The "new creature" is in Christ, and only the "new creature", we born again by God, are in Christ.

In Christ all will be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)!

The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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