WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

Revealing Times

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Your opinion provides no scripture to support it, thus it is merely speculation.
Wrong brother, Israel was JUDGED in 70 AD, and God saw them as he Prophesied in Ezekiel 37 as Dead Men's Bones for 2000 some odd years. I just know how to weave it together without citing the actual verses, that we are all supposed to know in essence.

Obviously, the 1st century peoples of Jerusalem, whom Jesus charged with all the righteous blood in Matthew 23:35-36, didn't exist when abel was murdered.
Again, Israel was judged in 70 AD. God clearly had 490 years of Judgment He brought against Israel almost 500 years earlier when Jeremiah lived and when Daniel lived. So, there is a Cup of Wrath God builds up. When Israel was promised the Canaan Land, God first told them they had to wait until their sins filled up His cup of wrath, so they went into bondage in Egypt, and after 3 generations the Land vomited them out because of their wickedness. God doesn't see things the way we do per se, He holds the fathers sins against the sons. So yes, God can requite the sins of Israel many, many years ago upon the heads of the Jews 2000 years ago.

If your answer is no, then the logical conclusion as to why the 1st century peoples of Jerusalem were charged with all the righteous bloodshed, is because they crucified Christ, not because of some "all false governance or false religion" speculation which you cannot back up with actual scripture.
Because God sees things different than man. He holds all sin in a cup of Wrath, when that wrath is filled up, God acts. Nineveh repented, Israel didn't.

That is only your deduction based on eschatological and subjective bias, not on objective scripture. If it was objective scripture evidence, you would be able to provide non symbolic langauge that specifically states all false religion and governance is charged with the bloodshed of the righteous. But as it is, as proof your response, you cannot.
Based on facts brother. I am interpreting the passages for you, you can understand it or not, thats on you. I am doing my job as called.

Its rather obvious tbh. Who can't see that God would be angry at men in TWO WAYS ? Worship and Government ? I mean its not that hard to figure out, men just make it overtly complex with bad theories. Men actually think the Universe is 6000 years old also, can you believe that ? I mean the Universe is 13.7 billion years old. That's not hard to see either, but.............
 
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Douggg

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And they all confirm purple and scarlet are the colors of the Levitical priesthood. They are all extra-biblical sources and they all confirm what I stated: purple and scarlet are the colors of the Levitical priesthood.
The images don't support your claim.
 
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Douggg

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I don't get your thinking brother tbh, why would it matter what color anyone wore today ?
You don't get my point?

The Harlot, harlot, is supposed to be arrayed in scarlet and purple. Josheb is claiming Levite priesthood, but the images don't back up his claim. You are claiming the harlot, harlot, is all false region. But you have to make the beast worship as an exception.

And you can't show that all false religions are arrayed in scarlet and purple. I show Islam, the mullahs, a false religion, as not being in scarlet and purple. And you can't explain the ten kings destroying the harlot, harlot, by fire.

Your other claim that Mystery Babylon is all governments of man, yet there were no governments around with the slaying of Abel.

I have addressed all of the criteria.

The harlot/harlot - the vatican. Cardinals and Bishops, scarlet and purple. The vatican has had relations with the kings of the earth. It is something the ten kings can destroy with fire, making it desolate.

Mystery Babylon the Great - the mystical Kingdom of Satan and his angels ruling over the nations. It has to be destroyed before the nations become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ - the Kingdom of God becoming the ruling kingdom over the world. The Lord's prayer includes... "Your kingdom come". First priority for Christians, seek ye first the Kingdom of God.
 
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Josheb

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I mainly use the KJV as my choice of translations, yet I think the following translation makes that particular verse in Hebrews 9 crystal clear that this would have to involve His bodily return to the earth in order to fulfill this.


Hebrews 9:28, CSB: "so also Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And if we consider verse 28 in light of verse 27 in that same chapter, how can this part---but after this the judgment--possibly get fulfilled apart from Christ bodily returning first?


so also Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many----this part was fulfilled during the first bodily coming.

will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him---this part is fulfilled during His 2nd bodily coming to the earth, which is still yet to occur.
It is certainly an indication the two events, his coming again and the subsequent judgment are closely related in purpose and close together in time, which is what the Church has historically believed. We find the same thing in Matthew 24; the end (vs 14) and the coming of the Son (vs 27, 39), the sign of his coming (vs 30).....

....and as I have already noted with another poster here it is not associated with a rapture because in the days of Noah it was the ones taken away who were destroyed and it was the ones who remained who were saved and continued to live in a covenant relationship with God.

Notice also Jesus says they'll go through the trib.

Matthew 24:9-11, 21-22, 29-31
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.... For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.... But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
 
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ewq1938

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....and as I have already noted with another poster here it is not associated with a rapture because in the days of Noah it was the ones taken away who were destroyed and it was the ones who remained who were saved and continued to live in a covenant relationship with God.


Actually those taken away by the Ark were saved and those left outside of the Ark died. Same order with Lot: Lot was taken to a place of safety by angels and those left behind in Sodom died.
 
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Josheb

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.....Overall, the point is, the breastplate of Judgment IS INDEED Purple and Scarlet, just like the Bible describes it.
Yep.

But don't over-reach, RT. The breastplate of judgment in the OT Mosaic Code is juxtaposed in the NT with the breastplate of righteousness in Christ. Jews. Christians. Covenant-breaking Messiah-deniers and New Covenant empowered Messiah believers.In the first century it was those who wore the OT breastplate who persecuated the blood of the NT breastplate wearers.
 
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Josheb

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Actually those taken away by the Ark were saved and those left outside of the Ark died. Same order with Lot: Lot was taken to a place of safety by angels and those left behind in Sodom died.
Those in the ark were not taken away. The ark didn't take anyone away. They remained on the earth and endured the flood as it happened. Lot and his family (minus the wife) stood and watched the destruction. Neither group were removed from the planet. They witnessed God's judgment and continued on. These are not examples of raptures.

Luke 17:26-30
"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed."

1 Peter 3:17-20
"For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

2 Peter 2:4-5
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly..."

When the floods receded Noah and seven others disembarked and continued to live on the earth in a covenant relationship. Those who had been taken away by the flood were destroyed.

Genesis 7:21-24
"All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days."

Noah together with those that were with him were left, not taken.
 
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ewq1938

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Those in the ark were not taken away. The ark didn't take anyone away.

A boat in a flood didn't take anyone away? Surely you aren't thinking that through very well. They were taken to a new place to live just as Lot was taken to a new place to live. The ones left behind are always the ones the died or suffer wrath.
 
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Josheb

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A boat in a flood didn't take anyone away? Surely you aren't thinking that through very well. They were taken to a new place to live just as Lot was taken to a new place to live. The ones left behind are always the ones the died or suffer wrath.
The scriptures state what the scriptures state and what they state is what I posted. "Noah was left." At no point anywhere do the scriptures state, "Noah was taken." That is an interpretive spin, one that directly contradicts what is stated.

The ones left were Noah and the seven others. The ones left behind were Noah and the seven others.

And that is what it will be like in the last days when one is taken and the other is left behind.

But you believe what you want to believe and you do so for whatever reason you want to believe as long as you don't abuse scripture to do it. Scripture states what scripture states and it is incumbent upon all of us to believe it as written. Yes, that might be initially inconvenient sometimes but it leads to truth and no matter how painful the truth is it sets us free.

Genesis 7:23 Hebrew transliteration
"So He destroyed living things which were on the face of the ground from man and livestock and creeping thing to the bird of the air and they were destroyed from the earth and remained only Noah and those with him in the ark."

Luke 17:21
"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man"

The ones who remained in the days of Noah were the righteous ones, not the God-deniers.


Adjust thinking, doctrine, and practice accordingly.
 
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DavidPT

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It is certainly an indication the two events, his coming again and the subsequent judgment are closely related in purpose and close together in time, which is what the Church has historically believed. We find the same thing in Matthew 24; the end (vs 14) and the coming of the Son (vs 27, 39), the sign of his coming (vs 30).....

....and as I have already noted with another poster here it is not associated with a rapture because in the days of Noah it was the ones taken away who were destroyed and it was the ones who remained who were saved and continued to live in a covenant relationship with God.

Notice also Jesus says they'll go through the trib.

Matthew 24:9-11, 21-22, 29-31
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.... For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.... But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give it's light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

As to the timing of these events, it would be after the trib of those days mentioned earlier in the Discourse. The coming in the Discourse, the one recorded in Matthew 24:30, is also meaning after the trib of those days. Matthew 24:29 proves it. This same coming recorded in Matthew 24:30 is obviously meaning the same coming recorded in Matthew 24:37-42, therefore placing the events of Matthew 24:37-42 after the trib of those days.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

If the trib of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD, that would indicate that the coming recorded in verse 30 immediately followed the trib of those days in the first century. So what coming would that have been? There is no logic to verse 30 if the trib of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD, since no such coming of the Son of man ever occurred in any sense, immediately after the events of 70 AD. Therefore the trib of those days have to conclude in the end of this age in order to make sense out of the coming that immediately follows. And if this coming happens in the end of this age, how can this coming not involve a rapture?
 
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Josheb

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As to the timing of these events, it would be after the trib of those day mentioned earlier in the Discourse.
Yep. Big hugs. I completely agree. Many here and many in the body of Christ do not.
If the trib of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD, that would indicate that the coming recorded in verse 30 immediately followed the trib of those days in the first century. So what coming would that have been? There is no logic to verse 30 if the trib of those days are meaning the events of 70 AD, since no such coming of the Son of man ever occurred in any sense, immediately after the events of 70 AD. Therefore the trib of those days have to conclude in the end of this age in order to make sense out of the coming that immediately follows. And if this coming happens in the end of this age, how can this coming not involve a rapture?
I completely disagree. The end of that age did conclude. The end of this age has not.

There are "last days" (plural) and there is the last day (singular). For example.......

Joel 2:28-29
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days"

This is part of Joel's messianic narrative. When might this event occur? Well..... Peter tells us this was fulfilled in the first century at Pentecost,

Acts 2:14-18
"But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy."

Notice that Peter - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - states quite plainly that even was happening "in the last days." Joel 2 has already been fulfilled. This is not me reading into the text something of my own eschatology, this is what the Bible states about the Bible. This is how the Holy Spirit instructed Peter to render Joel. They were lving in the lasts days. Sometimes we read a vague reference to "the last days," but in other places we read a more specific and immediate "these last days."

2 Timothy 3:1-5
"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these."

Hebrews 1:1-2
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

James 5:1-3
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!"


2 Peter 3:3-9
"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

The first century Christian reader of these epistles would not have understood those references to the last days to mean "20 centuries years from now."

These mentions of the last days plural are different from the last day singular.

John 6:39-44
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, 'I am the bread that came down out of heaven.' They were saying, 'Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.'"

The New Testament church was living in the lasts days plural but they were not living when the last day singular occurred. The former has come and gone, the latter has not. The audience identifiers and affiliations, the temporal markers and time stamps, and the implicit urgency of the NT writings all must be denied to make those events far-future.

We may not know exactly how a given prophesy was fulfilled bacause the canon is closed but we do know according to the cannon it has passed. We should not be explaining the Bible based on subsequent history; we should be understanding subsequent history based on a proper exegesis of scripture. Keep the horse in front of the cart.
 
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ewq1938

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The scriptures state what the scriptures state and what they state is what I posted. "Noah was left."

Nope. He was taken to a new place to live just like Lot. The ones left were back in the cities they lived in which were overcome by flood and fire. Christ also spoke of ten virgins and guess who were taken? The wise ones. Who were left behind? The foolish.

There is an old testament example of the one taken and one left:


Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

The word gather here means the same type of thing as the one "taken" means. All that is not taken from the field shall die from the hail, just as all who were not taken from Sodom died from the hail.



Exodus 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
Exodus 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD LEFT his servants and his cattle in the field.



check the meaning for the word "left" here:

5800

05800 `azab {aw-zab'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1594,1595; v

AV - forsake 129, leave 72, leave off 4, faileth 2, fortify 2, help 2,
committeth 1, destitute 1, refuseth 1, surely 1; 215

1) to leave, loose, forsake
1a) (Qal) to leave
1a1) to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone
1a2) to leave, abandon, forsake, neglect, apostatise
1a3) to let loose, set free, let go, free
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be left to
1b2) to be forsaken
1c) (Pual) to be deserted
2) to restore, repair
2a) (Qal) to repair

"to leave, loose, forsake"
"to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone"
"abandon, forsake, neglect"
"to be forsaken"
"to be deserted"


compare that to the meaning of the "one left" from the New Testament:

863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one

3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

left in the field hebrew:

"to leave, loose, forsake"
"to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone"
"abandon, forsake, neglect"
"to be forsaken"
"to be deserted"

left in the field greek:

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"to desert wrongfully"
"abandon, leave destitute"


both words mean the same thing.


Exodus 9:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
Exodus 9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.


"the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast"

This hail is a type of Gods judgement, just as the fire was in Lot's day, and just as the flood God sent to destroy the wicked in Noahs day and just as hail shall fall when Christ returns!



Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



Another witness that at the time of Gods wrath the first thing happening is the one TAKEN from the field is saved, the one LEFT there is destroyed. Gods wrath comes at the 7th trump!
 
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DavidPT

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Yep. Big hugs. I completely agree. Many here and many in the body of Christ do not.

I completely disagree. The end of that age did conclude. The end of this age has not.

There are "last days" (plural) and there is the last day (singular). For example.......

Joel 2:28-29
"It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days"

This is part of Joel's messianic narrative. When might this event occur? Well..... Peter tells us this was fulfilled in the first century at Pentecost,

Acts 2:14-18
"But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: 'Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy."

Notice that Peter - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - states quite plainly that even was happening "in the last days." Joel 2 has already been fulfilled. This is not me reading into the text something of my own eschatology, this is what the Bible states about the Bible. This is how the Holy Spirit instructed Peter to render Joel. They were lving in the lasts days. Sometimes we read a vague reference to "the last days," but in other places we read a more specific and immediate "these last days."

2 Timothy 3:1-5
"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these."

Hebrews 1:1-2
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."

James 5:1-3
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!"


2 Peter 3:3-9
"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"

The first century Christian reader of these epistles would not have understood those references to the last days to mean "20 centuries years from now."

These mentions of the last days plural are different from the last day singular.

John 6:39-44
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, 'I am the bread that came down out of heaven.' They were saying, 'Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.'"

The New Testament church was living in the lasts days plural but they were not living when the last day singular occurred. The former has come and gone, the latter has not. The audience identifiers and affiliations, the temporal markers and time stamps, and the implicit urgency of the NT writings all must be denied to make those events far-future.

We may not know exactly how a given prophesy was fulfilled bacause the canon is closed but we do know according to the cannon it has passed. We should not be explaining the Bible based on subsequent history; we should be understanding subsequent history based on a proper exegesis of scripture. Keep the horse in front of the cart.

Unfortunately it is not entirely clear to me by what you submitted here, as to what your position is concerning Matthew 24:29-31. Let's get on the same page about that first if you don't mind.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What period of time do you feel the trib of those days fit? The coming in verse 30, where do you see that fitting, because wherever you see it fitting, it has to fit the same time period the trib of those days fit.

There are some partial preterists who see the trib of those days referring to the events connected with 70 AD, while at the same time seeing the coming in verse 30 meaning the 2nd coming. That position couldn't possibly be correct since it would be making nonsense out of 'immediately after' in verse 29. 2000 plus years is not immediately after no matter how you look at it.

There is only one valid way to interpret Matthew 24:29-30 and that I already mentioned it when I said this above---wherever you see it fitting, it has to fit the same time period the trib of those days fit.

So which makes better sense then?

The trib of those days ending in the first century, immediately followed by the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Or?-----

The trib of those days ending in the end of this present earth age, immediately followed by the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I don't how anyone could possibly think it's the former. No such coming ever happened in the first century in any sense following the trib of those days, that assuming the trib of those days ended in the first century.

And since there is actually a 2nd coming in the future still, the latter is the only interpretation that even makes sense of Matthew 24:29-30.
 
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claninja

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Wrong brother, Israel was JUDGED in 70 AD, and Good saw them as he Prophesied in Ezekiel 37 as Dead Men's Bones for 2000 some odd years. I just know how to weave it together without citing the actual verses, that we are all supposed to know in essence.

There it is again, no scriptural support for your beliefs, just speculation.

Again, Israel was judged in 70 AD. God clearly had 490 years of Judgment He brought against Israel almost 500 years earlier when Jeremiah lived and when Daniel lived. So, there is a Cup of Wrath God builds up. When Israel was promised the Canaan Land, God first told them they had to wait until their sins filled up His cup of wrath, so they went into bondage in Egypt, and after 3 generations the Land vomited them out because of their wickedness. God doesn't see things the way we do per se, He holds the fathers sins against the sons. So yes, God can requite the sins of Israel many years ago upon the heads of the Jews 2000 years ago.

1st century Israel was judged was charged with all the righteous bloodshed from the foundation of the world, correct?

Luke 11:50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation

Matthew 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Because God sees things different than man. He holds all sin in a cup of Wrath, when that wrath is filled up, God acts. Nineveh repented, Israel didn't.

This doesn't explain why 1st century Israel is held responsible for all the righteous blood shed since abel.

Based on facts brother. I am interpreting the passages for you, you can understand it or not, that on you. I am doing my job as called.

You haven't provided any facts. You've only provided speculation based on eschatalogical bias.

Again, we disagree on the interpretation of the symbolic nature or revelation. So can you point to any scripture that states a nation, tribe, or people, other than 1st century Jerusalem is charged with all the righteous bloodshed?


Its rather obvious tbh. Who can't see that God would be angry at men in TWO WAYS ? Worship and Government ? I mean its not that hard to figure out, men just make it overtly complex with bad theories. Men actually think the Universe is 6000 years old also, can you believe that ? I mean the Universe is 13.7 billion years old. That's not hard to see either, but.............

Why should we rely on your speculations when we can just read scripture. Scripture is very clear as to what nation/people was charged with all the righteous blood shed.

Luke 11:50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation

Matthew 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.
 
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Josheb

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Josh quoting Genesis 7:23 and the transliteration of the Hebrew said:
The scriptures state what the scriptures state and what they state is what I posted. "Noah was left." Noah remained.
I quote scripture and you say "Nope." And then you commit and exegetical fallacy by asserting the word root instead of accepting the conjugation (give D. A. Carson's "Exegetical Fallacies" a read so you don't make this mistake again in the future).

Okay.

You think your opinion is more authoritative that scripture. Got it.

Conversation over.
 
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Josheb

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Unfortunately it is not entirely clear to me by what you submitted here, as to what your position is concerning Matthew 24:29-31. Let's get on the same page about that first if you don't mind.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What period of time do you feel the trib of those days fit?
Within the generation of Jesus' audience as they sat there that evening on the Mt. of Olives looking across the saddle at the temple that lay ahead of them. Jesus had told the Pharisees and scribes eariler that day that the judgment for having killed the prophets was coming upon them in that generation and as he exited the temple the disciples lauded its majesty and he told them it was gonna be destroyed. Later that evening they asked him a three-pronged question about when "these things," the sign of his coming, and the end of the age would come. The Hebrew word used for "end" is better translated "payment, completion, or consummation.

That is the question Jesus is answering. Any notion that he is explaining anything else is incorrect.

Jesus proceeds to give several "time stamps" or temporal qualifiers/markers but the most encompassing is the repeat of "this generation," which is conjugated in the near demonstrative. That conjugation cannot be made to say "that generation." The language simply does not permit any such interpretation. Jesus said no one knows the day ot time but he also said it would occur in "this generation" logically leading to the conclusion no one knows the day or time in this generation. Throughout the exposition he repeatedly states, "You will see...." and "You will hear..." NOT "They will see..." or "They will hear..." again indicating it is his immediate audience to whom he is speaking, his immediate audience that will see and hear the events he is describing.

The immediately preceding preface to the verse you've selected states, "Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them." Jesus did not say, I have told you these things so if others say to them, say to those 20 centuries from now...." That's not what he said. He said you as he looked those men in the face and answered and addressed their specific inquiry.


That is what the text states. That's not my interpretation; that's the plain reading of the text as written.


So, yes, let's get on the same page about that first if you don't mind.
 
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ewq1938

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I quote scripture and you say "Nope." And then you commit and exegetical fallacy by asserting the word root instead of accepting the conjugation

There was no root fallacy in my post. You made the error of using the English meaning of left when the Greek word has the meaning of being rejected. Taken has the general Greek meaning of being Accepted. Noah was not rejected. He was accepted and found worthy of being saved by the Ark. He is the one TAKEN/accepted and those LEFT outside of the safety of the Ark were left/rejected.

The one taken out of the area is always the one that lives. The one who remains in the area is the one who suffers or dies. The clearest examples Christ gave would be the wise virgins being TAKEN, and the foolish LEFT behind. Same with the example of Lot, where he is TAKEN away from the area by angels and those LEFT behind died. Taken is always first before the LEFT one is punished.

There is an old testament example of the one taken and one left:


Exodus 9:19 Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.

The word gather here means the same type of thing as the one "taken" means. All that is not taken from the field shall die from the hail, just as all who were not taken from Sodom died from the hail.



Exodus 9:20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
Exodus 9:21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD LEFT his servants and his cattle in the field.



check the meaning for the word "left" here:

5800

05800 `azab {aw-zab'}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1594,1595; v

AV - forsake 129, leave 72, leave off 4, faileth 2, fortify 2, help 2,
committeth 1, destitute 1, refuseth 1, surely 1; 215

1) to leave, loose, forsake
1a) (Qal) to leave
1a1) to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone
1a2) to leave, abandon, forsake, neglect, apostatise
1a3) to let loose, set free, let go, free
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be left to
1b2) to be forsaken
1c) (Pual) to be deserted
2) to restore, repair
2a) (Qal) to repair

"to leave, loose, forsake"
"to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone"
"abandon, forsake, neglect"
"to be forsaken"
"to be deserted"


compare that to the meaning of the "one left" from the New Testament:

863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one

3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

left in the field hebrew:

"to leave, loose, forsake"
"to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone"
"abandon, forsake, neglect"
"to be forsaken"
"to be deserted"

left in the field greek:

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"to desert wrongfully"
"abandon, leave destitute"


both words mean the same thing.


Exodus 9:22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:23 And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
Exodus 9:25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.


"the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast"

This hail is a type of Gods judgement, just as the fire was in Lot's day, and just as the flood God sent to destroy the wicked in Noahs day and just as hail shall fall when Christ returns!



Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



Another witness that at the time of Gods wrath the first thing happening is the one TAKEN from the field is saved, the one LEFT there is destroyed. Gods wrath comes at the 7th trump!

You think your opinion is more authoritative that scripture. Got it.

No, scripture is more authoritative than your opinion which is decidedly wrong.
 
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Josheb

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There was no root fallacy in my post. You made the error of using the English meaning of left when the Greek word has the meaning of being rejected.
Fail. The word "left" I used was from Genesis, not Matthew; Hebrew, not Greek. The Greek cannot be in conflict with the Hebrew. Separating the "hiēmi" from its prefix "apó" is in fact an exegetical fallacy. G863 should have been consulted, not G575. With the former it will be learned that G863 conjugation means to forgive, send away, leave alone, release, etc. The prefix "apó" means "away from" root means "send" and the context of the entire passage is judgment so we ask "from what are they released?" The answer? Judgment! You got the first part correct but failed to consider context.

In the days of Noah it was those taken away by the flood who were destroyed in judgment. Noah and the other seven were left (Genesis 7:23, not Matthew 24:40). They were left on the earth and they were left out of the judgment. They weren't "taken" anywhere.

Let's face it: the "rapture" is about Christians being removed from the planet. Neither Noah nor Lot was removed from the planet.



Why did such a bad screw up occur? Because the allegiance to an eschatology is greater than the allegiance to scripture even though the allegiance to scripture does exist and is sincere. An eisegetic attempt to prove an already-existing position with confirmation bias rather than letting the text correctly rendered define the position resulted in a series of errors that could have and should have been caught when committed were it not for the heartfelt need to defend a pre-existing eschatology. That's not my judgment; that is what you've demonstrated for all the readers to see, read, and objectively appraise.
 
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ewq1938

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Fail. The word "left" I used was from Genesis, not Matthew; Hebrew, not Greek. The Greek cannot be in conflict with the Hebrew. Separating the "hiēmi" from its prefix "apó" is in fact an exegetical fallacy. G863 should have been consulted, not G575.

Only G863 was "consulted". Go back and read the post before replying with incorrect accusatory information.
 
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@ Josheb You are extrapolating too much from Noah, the ark, and the world all life destroyed by the flood, who were not in the ark. God gave the rainbow that He would not destroy all life on earth again.

OIP.iMUh_Y7si_EKiKzc0gtUTQHaEK
 
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