The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

Kermos · Dec 19, 2019

renniks said:
If we have no free will we cannot try to do any such thing. If we have no free will, and what you say is true, God is causing us to believe as we do. Your own theology contradicts itself.

A person's default nature is to fight against or deny God for the Apostle Paul wrote "you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:1-2).

As trespassers against God, Free-willians will give an account "without excuse" (Matthew 12:36-37, Romans 1:20) for their man-made tradition of choice toward God which is denial of the Word of God Who decisively states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

You will be judged by your words, for so says Lord Jesus "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

You wrote "He said that to his disciples, not us" in your post #173 in your defiance of Lord Jesus saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, it is clearly evident that your words defy the words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), so those words of yours are words of condemnation.

God brings the dead to life (John 11:1-45), and God imparts belief/faith (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29).

Renniks, your contradiction argument fails scripturally, and your argument is proven false.

Please see these posts that illuminate the Sovereignty of God in man's salvation - according to the Bible:

The accurate grammatical structure of Revelation 13:8 analyzed post, and do not forget the parallel in Revelation 17:8!

the meaning of "receive" post with application in Acts 2:38-39 and the subsequent we believers receive the Holy Spirit post

the error of Armenians/Free-willians exposed post

the "whoever believes" in John 3:16 is constrained by "believe" definition in John 6:29 and the "world" in John 17:9 has implications for "world" in John 3:16 post

"choose whom you will serve" in Joshua 24:15 does not indicate ability to serve God post

repentance is of/by/from God in man with accurate BIBLICAL CITATIONS post

"free will" does not occur in the New Testament except in Philemon 1:14 as an illusory metaphor post

The "you" occurrances in John 15:16 is the same as "you" occurrances in John 15:13-15 and John 15:16 and John 14:16-17 which are for all us believers in all time post. This is Love!

zoidar · Dec 19, 2019

Josheb said:
Red herring.

This is a dsicussion board. The very overtly-stated purpose here is to discuss, not debate. So when you try to reframe the exchange as a "debate" instead of a discussion and then lay atop that your derisive prognostications that is not valid or veracious. It is fallacious. And I don't have to debate it to point it out and expect you to do the right scriptural and rational thing: repent.

The facts in evidence are God is not dependent on the creature He is saving when He saves that sinful creature from that creature's own sin. The facts in evidence show God has many wants, not just the singular want to save all. The facts in evidence show God can and does satisfy His wants as He so purposes.

There's no need to "debate" those facts and you are invited to discuss them.

The evidence says otherwise.

Philosophically there's no problem with the case I have presented but you're not engaging it. Experientially, what I have posted can be observed and experienced every day in common ordinary human life. Scripture tells us our own anecdotal experience is unreliable. So does century of human theology, philosophy, psychology, etc. The heart is deceitful above all else. That means we cannot even rely upon our own anecdotal experience of our own salvation when and wherever those perceptions contradict scripture.

So there's always going to be a flaw in the "philosophical and experience" question about whether or not God always gets His way, especially as that pertains to salvation.

And you are invited not to impose the fallacious and derisive prognostications about "debate" onto the discussion.

Again, I'm going to appeal to the facts in evidence. They speak for themselves. Any objective comparison of the posts easily a and readily shows I have talked about the topic philosophically and experientially and that sem evidence easily and readily shows you're not doing the same. This is a Christian discussion board in a Christian discussion forum and there is an explicit label stating the board is for Christians only. Christians use scripture. Furthermore the fact that the op inquires about salvation means it is in self-evident fact discussing scripture.

Yet you claim you see no reason to discuss scripture as you try to philosophically and exprientially discuss what is inextricably a scriptural condition.

And I don't have to "debate" anything to point that out to you and all the readers.

One will; two different purposes with overlapping motives.

And you are invited to discuss that, not debate it.

No! That questions evidences a remarkable lack of knowledge about God, scripture, philosophy, and human experience.

The just recompense for our individual and collective disobedience is destruction. It is an act of grace that any of us draw one more single breath and God has patiently let you and I live the rest of our lives. You experience the common grace extended to all humanity every day of your life and you've just gone on record stating you don't know or understand that reality. That God saves any sinful creature at all eternally is another act of grace. God is both just and gracious. God is just as He wants and God is gracious as He wants and He does so based on His purposes that are not in any way dependent upon the sinful creature.

And you are invited to discuss this without imposing derisive prognostications on the discussion.

Let's first get rid of the red herring of "my perspective." It is a position I have evidenced both scripturally and rationally and done so much more effectively and veraciously then what I've received, which is rife with logical fallacy and an absence of scripture and reliance upon philosophy and experiential report.

Then let's get rid of the idea justice is not giving mercy. That is a false dichotomy you have yet to evidence, let alone prove. Sin is death so the dead dying isn't particularly moral in any way, even if the dead falsely imagine it otherwise. That is a false dichotomy, and false dichotomies are always and everywhere fallacious and in no way evidence a philosophical and experiential questioning of the matter at hand. Fallacies avoid philosophical and experiential (and scriptural) discussion.

Good. And I will note for your observance that when I have read something that bears integrity with God's word as written plainly read I have affirmed it. I have, will, and as a general practice affirm that which bears integrity with scripture, inquire about that which is either unclear or I do not adequately understand, and refute that which is obviously contrary to God's word rightly-rendered.

I have done that here in this discussion.

It is one of the foundations for how discussions in Christian forums should be conducted.

I read you stating disagreement but I don't read 1) a cogent case for any alternative being presented and 2) any evidence of discussion of either what I have posted or the so far non-existent alternative case.

So the evidence shows we don't have anything; neither agreement nor disagreement because no parity has been provided, and the self-asserted intent has not been practiced.

We're not discussing why man is damned. We're discussing whether or not God is able to do what He wants in salvation. Not damnation. Do not conflate the two.

Yes, and in doing so hypocrisy was practiced (again). Everyone here already knows you'll probably appeal to scripture when it suits you and do so in eisegetic manner.

I hope for more from you.

The case I have presented shows God is able to get His will done because there are many diverse aspects to His will and He acts based upon His purposes and is not dependent upon the sinful creature in anyway to do what He wants to do, even in His desire to save.

And you are invited to discuss this position without imposing the derisive prognostications previously posted or in any other way misrepresenting the exchange.

I don't think I can discuss this with you. I see you put some time into the response to me, and that is of course great, yet I feel we are on two very different levels on thinking. So I will leave the discussion.

God bless you and may the love of Christ fill your heart and soul! Amen!
/Peter

Josheb · Dec 19, 2019

zoidar said:
I don't think I can discuss this with you. I see you put some time into the response to me, and that is of course great, yet I feel we are on two very different levels on thinking.

And you are apparently not willing to change your thinking no matter how much evidence indicating such warrant is provided.

zoidar said:
So I will leave the discussion.

That is, of course your prerogative but that occurs in the absence of a cogent response and in the presence of repeated fallacious responses. That and that alone - not anything personal about you - is the reason I encourage and exhort you to stick around and change the way you think about this matter.

zoidar said:
God bless you and may the love of Christ fill your heart and soul! Amen!
/Peter

Yes, you to.

Pay attention to my handle, Peter. If and when you broach the topic of whether God has the ability to get His will done when He saves someone and I happen to read that op, I'll be presenting the same case and if you're not prepared you're going to end up exactly where you are now.

The inquiry of this op was answered and addressed. There are many aspect to God's will for sinners, one of which is justice and another is salvation, and God is able to get His will done in both cases. I provided plainly read scripture to support that position and all of it was ignored.

God bless you.

zoidar · Dec 20, 2019

Josheb said:
No, God's word plainly states that and everyday ordinary observation testifies to that effect.

God wants every saved:

Isaiah 45:21-25
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

1 Timothy 2:1-6
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

I agree.

God does not choose everyone:

Matthew 22:1-14
"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, 'Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.' But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen."

v.3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. The invited (the jews?) were UNWILLING, does it say anything about them not being chosen?

v.9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Meningly salvation is offered everyone (the gentiles?)

v.11-14 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The text doesn't say why the man wasn't wearing weeding clothes. It may be that he had faith without fruits, that he hadn't been a good servant of Christ. Why wasn't he chosen then? He wasn't willing to give his all to Christ.

Matthew 19
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Luke 13:22-27
"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from me, all you evildoers.'"

Here you have the same answer as I gave to Matthew 22:1-14. 'Strive to enter through the narrow door. How? We have to give our whole life to Christ, live for him. People don't want to live for Christ, that is the reason they are not able to enter. It's a sad truth, some people have dead faith, that they trust will save them, but they do not have fruits.

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

God is not dependent upon humans:

Acts 17:22-31
"So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'To and Unknown God.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Not sure what your point is here. God certainly doesn't need anything from us.

God is able to do as He pleases:

Psalm 115:1-3
"Not to us, O LORD, not to us, But to Your name give glory Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth. Why should the nations say, 'Where, now, is their God?' But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."

Psalm 135:5-6
"For I know that the LORD is great And that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."

God has the right to do as He pleases, He has the right to do what he wants, and all He does is always good, righteous, just, and true.

King Saul was chosen to win and conquer the Philistines, yet it didn't come true. It was David, who much later conquered the Philistines.

1 Samuel 9
15 Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, 16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me.”

Why wasn't Saul the one to deliever the people from the Philistines? Because of God not choosing him, or because of his own (man's) disobedience?

Josheb · Dec 20, 2019

zoidar said:
We have to give our whole life to Christ, live for him. People don't want to live for Christ, that is the reason they are not able to enter.?

This is the critical point; it's the dividing line theologically.

Synergists will argue the "we" can be anybody, including the God-denying or hostile-to-God non-believer when we all logically understand the axiomatic nature of a single simple truth:

Unbelievers are not believers.

The plain, simple, and undeniable fact of scripture is that all the examples provided of people believing in Jesus are people who already believe in God. Another plain and simple fact is that nearly all of the examples in the epistolary are examples of Christians, not non-believers.

But because of poor exegetical practice these two populations get conflated with non-believers and bad doctrine ensues.

God saves those He wants to save based on His purposes and He does so without being dependent in any way upon the sinner. He also leaves condemned those who condemned themselves through disobedience and He is able to get His will done in that regard. The two desires are not in conflict with one another and no one in dissent here has proven otherwise. Such a position (so far) is thoughtlessly and baselessly assumed, not evidenced.

BBAS 64 · Dec 20, 2019

zoidar said:
I agree.

v.3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. The invited (the jews?) were UNWILLING, does it say anything about them not being chosen?

v.9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ Meningly salvation is offered everyone (the gentiles?)

v.11-14 “But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The text doesn't say why the man wasn't wearing weeding clothes. It may be that he had faith without fruits, that he hadn't been a good servant of Christ. Why wasn't he chosen then? He wasn't willing to give his all to Christ.

Matthew 19
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

Here you have the same answer as I gave to Matthew 22:1-14. 'Strive to enter through the narrow door. How? We have to give our whole life to Christ, live for him. People don't want to live for Christ, that is the reason they are not able to enter. It's a sad truth, some people have dead faith, that they trust will save them, but they do not have fruits.

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Not sure what your point is here. God certainly doesn't need anything from us.

God has the right to do as He pleases, He has the right to do what he wants, and all He does is always good, righteous, just, and true.

King Saul was chosen to win and conquer the Philistines, yet it didn't come true. It was David, who much later conquered the Philistines.

1 Samuel 9
15 Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, 16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me.”

Why wasn't Saul the one to deliever the people from the Philistines? Because of God not choosing him, or because of his own (man's) disobedience?

Good Day, Peter

Just a critical point of historical reality about the Royal wedding used in this passage.

The wedding clothes are provide by the King for the express purpose of bringing honor to the royal family, the king know who he gives he clothing to and if you try to sneak in well that is not going to serve you well. As it is an insult and the King and His family so rightly "He will have your head".

In Him,

Bill

zoidar · Dec 20, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Peter

Just a critical point of historical reality about the Royal wedding used in this passage.

The wedding clothes are provide by the King for the express purpose of bringing honor to the royal family, the king know who he gives he clothing to and if you try to sneak in well that is not going to serve you well. As it is an insult and the King and His family so rightly "He will have your head".

In Him,

Bill

Thanks Bill!

May it be that the man without wedding clothes was a man that had rejected Christ? But how did he then get in in the first place? Couldn't the wedding clothes be like the white robes of those who are saved in revelation? The man wasn't saved, that is sure, but the story doesn't say why.

renniks · Dec 23, 2019

Kermos said:
Your claimed choice toward God is a work, and that is contrary to scripture (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29).

Faith isn't a work. Read Galatians.

Kermos · Dec 23, 2019

renniks said:
Faith isn't a work. Read Galatians.

Faith is a work, so says Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), when He said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Who He has sent" (John 6:29).

Man does not dictate his own faith toward God unto salvation for such a thing is impossible with men (Matthew 19:26).

God dictates the faith that saves for saving faith/belief is the work of God (John 6:29, Matthew 19:26).

P.S. Here is the clearly showing the error and deceit of believing one can choose toward God post which you cut out information that proves you wrong, renniks.

renniks · Dec 26, 2019

Kermos said:
Faith is a work, so says Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), when He said:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him Who He has sent" (John 6:29).

Man does not dictate his own faith toward God unto salvation for such a thing is impossible with men (Matthew 19:26).

God dictates the faith that saves for saving faith/belief is the work of God (John 6:29, Matthew 19:26).

P.S. Here is the clearly showing the error and deceit of believing one can choose toward God post which you cut out information that proves you wrong, renniks.

Gal 2…15We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

renniks · Dec 26, 2019

Kermos said:
As trespassers against God, Free-willians will give an account "without excuse"

How are we trespassers against God, when we believe in all the historical facts of Christianity and in fact, what we deny is that Pagan notion of fate brought into the church by Augustine?

renniks · Dec 26, 2019

Kermos said:
Your claimed choice toward God is prideful and arrogant.

Your claimed choice toward God is your attempt at stealing from God's glory.

Your claimed choice toward God denies the very Word of God.

This is all hogwash. Why was John the Baptist going around telling people to repent if they were incapable of repentance? Jesus is 9The TRUE Light who gives light to every man according to John 1:9. Not to some chosen few who apparently have the right hair color or personality.

Kermos · Dec 26, 2019

renniks said:
Gal 2…15We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law, because by works of the Law no one will be justified.

Hello renniks,

All three instances of "works" refers to "works of the Law" specifically.

Thus "man is not justified by works of the Law" is the point.

Now, faith/belief in man is a work of God because Lord Jesus declared "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

The phrase "works of the Law" does not equal "work of God".

Kermos · Dec 26, 2019

renniks said:
How are we trespassers against God, when we believe in all the historical facts of Christianity and in fact, what we deny is that Pagan notion of fate brought into the church by Augustine?

Augustine is not Paul.

Since you brought up Galations, let's look at the words of Paul, for Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10), so the Apostle calls faith/belief "the gift of God" not works of man then "we are His workmanship" includes that the work of God is faith/belief (John 6:29).

The Apostle Paul also wrote "you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:1-2), so a person's default nature is to fight against or deny God.

The Apostle Paul also wrote "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14), so a person cannot person that has not the work of God, that is belief/faith (John 6:29), "the things of the Spirit of God" is foolishness to the carnal man thus unsaved man cannot choose toward God.

The Apostle Paul also wrote "those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:8), so the unsaved man - in the flesh - cannot please God by choosing toward God.

Now, the words of Jesus Who is the Word of God Himself, for He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so Lord Jesus says a person cannot choose Jesus.

This Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so belief/faith in us believers is indisputably the work of God!

This is why Free-willians are trespassers against God. Free-willians will give an account "without excuse" (Matthew 12:36-37, Romans 1:20) for their man-made tradition of choice toward God which is denial of the Word of God Who decisively states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Jesus said you will be judged by your words, for He says "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

Your claimed choice of Jesus is the pivot point for salvation according to Free-willian theology. Your decision. Your free will. None of these are supported by scripture.

You wrote "He said that to his disciples, not us" in your post #173 in your defiance of Lord Jesus saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so you wrote rebellion against God..

God brings the dead to life (John 11:1-45), and God imparts belief/faith (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29).

May the Lord open your eyes to His powerful, merciful, loving Truth!

Kermos · Dec 26, 2019

renniks said:
This is all hogwash. Why was John the Baptist going around telling people to repent if they were incapable of repentance? Jesus is 9The TRUE Light who gives light to every man according to John 1:9. Not to some chosen few who apparently have the right hair color or personality.

God is capable of bringing repentance in His chosen people.

Here are some verses that explain that repentance is from God.

Here is the proper exegesis of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
10 For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

BIBLE CITATION: For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation (2 Corinthians 7:10).

The Apostle Paul did not write "sorrow that is according to your free will" - no he did NOT - the Apostle Paul ascribed to God that which is rightly God's - Godly sorrow leading to repentance to salvation!

Behold, more of Paul's writing:

BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Notice that rebuke of people that despise repentance being from God!

BIBLE CITATION: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18)

See that God grants repentance.

BIBLE CITATION: I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10)

BIBLE CITATION: with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:25)

God grants repentance; therefore, repentance is not a work conjured up by man nor by man's "free choice".

renniks · Dec 26, 2019

Kermos said:
Now, faith/belief in man is a work of God because Lord Jesus declared "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Faith is an act of the will. It is not performing a work. But laying aside all the calvinist hocus pocus focus and arguements about the meaning of the word, " work" what is Jesus telling them to do?
" For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

He's telling them they have to do something, but not what they would expect. They have to make a choice to believe that what he is saying is the truth. It isn't going to just happen to them. God isn't going to irresistibly implant faith in them. They have to choose to learn from the father, and believe in the son. Very evangelistic and very arminian message.

renniks · Dec 26, 2019

Kermos said:
Since you brought up Galations, let's look at the words of Paul, for Paul wrote "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10), so the Apostle calls faith/belief "the gift of God" not works of man then "we are His workmanship" includes that the work of God is faith/belief (John 6:29).

The fact of salvation by faith isn’t even Paul’s point; it is Paul’s assumption.

Paul’s point is that the fact that salvation is through faith instead of works is something worth celebrating. It is the fact that salvation is through faith instead of works that is a gift from God, and the cause of any boasting being void.
It is talking about utter reliance and trust on Christ. This is why it is impossible to boast about faith, because the very nature of faith is relenting our own power and abilities. It is saying, “I give up. Christ, You do it.”

renniks · Dec 26, 2019

Kermos said:
BIBLE CITATION: Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

This has nothing to do with faith being irresistible. C'mon, get real. Take off your Calvinist lenses.
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath when His righteous judgement will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

Free Will plain as day. I have no patience for your cherry picking.

Kermos · Dec 26, 2019

renniks said:
Faith is an act of the will. It is not performing a work. But laying aside all the calvinist hocus pocus focus and arguements about the meaning of the word, " work" what is Jesus telling them to do?
" For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

He's telling them they have to do something, but not what they would expect. They have to make a choice to believe that what he is saying is the truth. It isn't going to just happen to them. God isn't going to irresistibly implant faith in them. They have to choose to learn from the father, and believe in the son. Very evangelistic and very arminian message.

In case you did not notice, in your citation of John 6:40, the word "believes" is in the sentence.

That "believes" in John 6:40 is a work of God because Lord Jesus declared "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) - notice that Lord Jesus defines "believe" here.

The word "choice" is not in John 6:40, nor does Jesus imply the word "choice".

This means you are adding to scripture because you say "choice to believe".

Here is where a choice occurs, Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

You cannot choose Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), because he said such in John 15 16, and there is absolutely no place in scripture that says man has the ability to choose toward God.

Because free will choice toward God is not in Scripture, Free-willians must imagine free will choice into scripture.

You wrote "Faith is an act of the will".

I know write faith is an act of the will!

The Apostle John wrote "as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God"
(John 1:12-13).

There it is not by "the will of man".

God must bring people to repentance (Acts 11:18).

A person must be born of God (John 1:12-13, John 3:3, John 3:5).

God must impart faith/belief (John 6:29).

God must choose man (John 15:16).

We believers evangelize by telling people who God is, by telling people who they are, and by telling people their condition in front of God, and by telling people of Jesus and His work. This is the gospel of Christ! Very Christian!

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

Kermos · Dec 26, 2019

renniks said:
The fact of salvation by faith isn’t even Paul’s point; it is Paul’s assumption.

Paul’s point is that the fact that salvation is through faith instead of works is something worth celebrating. It is the fact that salvation is through faith instead of works that is a gift from God, and the cause of any boasting being void.
It is talking about utter reliance and trust on Christ. This is why it is impossible to boast about faith, because the very nature of faith is relenting our own power and abilities. It is saying, “I give up. Christ, You do it.”

Says you not the Apostle Paul.

His words are clear. You don't like his words, so you try to make his words say something to fit your Free-willian theology.

You try to promote salvation while demoting faith's grammatical postion, but your assertion fails grammatically.

Grace is not of yourselves.

Salvation is not of yourselves.

Faith/belief is not of yourselves.

Grace is the gift of God.

Salvation is the gift of God.

Faith/belief is the gift of God.

Here is the passage that the Apostle Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

And the Apostle Paul is in concord with Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), when the Word of God said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

It is saying "WOW, GOD, THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME FROM THE WORLD! YOU ARE RIGHTEOUS IN ALL YOUR WAYS! I'M SORRY FOR ALL MY SINES! THANK YOU FOR ALL THAT YOU HAVE DONE FOR ME, THANK YOU, PRAISE YOU!"

BOTH JESUS AND PAUL CLEARLY STATE THAT FAITH/BELIEF IS IMPARTED TO MAN BY GOD.

The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Christian

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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