Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

sovereigngrace said:

I understand how the early church wholesale thought Nero was the Antichrist.

I understand how the Reformers wholesale thought the Pope was the Antichrist.

Each generation understandably focuses in on what was opposing them and righteousness. They are all largely right. It is an ongoing system.

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thomas_t said:

I know every Bible believing child knows that a sea was parted by God. Literally parted.
When you say "if it's a sea - take it literally! Of course! If it's a mountain, in contrast - take it as a metaphor!" Who is to understand God anymore.

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jgr said:

David said that hills melted.

Where does he say that God told him that?

What child of what age told you that it wasn't a metaphor?

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jgr said:

We've seen previously that only the faithful and obedient to Christ are elect and beloved, and they are elect and beloved for the sake of the forefathers because they have continued in the faith and obedience of the forefathers.

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jgr said:

as there is no Scripture to be found wherein God decides to exchange nonracialism for racialism.

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jgr said:

Literal splitting of the Mount of Olives has never literally occurred, nor will it, nor does it need to, because its truths are communicated as a metaphoric spiritual event.

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thomas_t said:

that's a straightforward claim. Let me think a while… ah we have Esra 9:1-3 (ESV)
After these things had been done, the officials approached me and said, “The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands with their abominations, from the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2 For they have taken some of their daughters to be wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race[1] has mixed itself with the peoples of the lands. And in this faithlessness the hand of the officials and chief men has been foremost.” 3 As soon as I heard this, I tore my garment and my cloak and pulled hair from my head and beard and sat appalled.

This is a clear indication that church (1) and Israel (2) are two seperate entities

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thomas_t said:

… "tore my garment"
When you go to your church elders to tell them you married an African wife, will they tear their garment?
This is a clear indication that church (1) and Israel (2) are two seperate entities
Thomas

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thomas_t said:

that's a straightforward claim. Let me think a while… ah we have Esra 9:1-3 (ESV)
After these things had been done, the officials approached me and said, “The people of Israel and the priests and the Levites have not separated themselves from the peoples of the lands with their abominations, from the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2 For they have taken some of their daughters to be wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race[1] has mixed itself with the peoples of the lands. And in this faithlessness the hand of the officials and chief men has been foremost.” 3 As soon as I heard this, I tore my garment and my cloak and pulled hair from my head and beard and sat appalled.

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thomas_t said:

Jesus saves by grace and not to please anyone else.

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jgr said:

Hi thomas_t,

Jesus saves by grace through faith:

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And obedience:

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Nothing to do with race or tribe or ethnicity or genetics or DNA.

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jgr said:

Hi thomas_t,

Jesus saves by grace through faith:

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

And obedience:

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


Nothing to do with race or tribe or ethnicity or genetics or DNA.

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sovereigngrace said:

I think it is important to highlight: obedience is the fruit of saving faith. It is not faith plus obedience.

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thomas_t said:

There is not one faithful elected for the sake of someone else.

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sovereigngrace said:

Thanks for your response. The nearness related to the fact it was a current unfolding revelation culminating in the NHNE. I take it you except that that era is not here yet?

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sovereigngrace said:

I know many today who do. Many of these older writers also believed the pope was the antichrist, but many modern scholars rightly do not accept that. That is not to say that he is not a antichrist.

I tend to make more use of Greek lexicons and expository dictionaries.

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sovereigngrace said:

I see you failed to quote the best known Amillennialists commentator Matthew Henry. He too sees Matthew 24 referring to AD70 and Christ's coming. I had to cut out your quote in full, and also Matthew Henry, to get it to fit. I was not trying to negate the fact that he saw partial fulfilment in AD70. I wanted to show you the dualistic approach that many Amils see in Matt 24.

"Matthew 24:32-51
We have here the practical application of the foregoing prediction; in general, we must expect and prepare for the events here foretold.

I. We must expect them; “Now learn a parable of the fig-tree, Mat 24:32, Mat 24:33. Now learn what use to make of the things you have heard; so observe and understand the signs of the times, and compare them with the predictions of the word, as from thence to foresee what is at the door, that you may provide accordingly.” The parable of the fig-tree is no more than this, that its budding and blossoming are a presage of summer; for as the stork in the heaven, so the trees of the field, know their appointed time. The beginning of the working of second causes assures us of the progress and perfection of it. Thus when God begins to fulfil prophecies, he will make an end. There is a certain series in the works of providence, as there is in the works of nature. The signs of the times are compared with the prognostics of the face of the sky (Mat 16:3), so here with those of the face of the earth; when that is renewed, we foresee that summer is coming, not immediately, but at some distance; after the branch grows tender, we expect the March winds, and the April showers, before the summer comes; however, we are sure it is coming; “so likewise ye, when the gospel day shall dawn, count upon it, that through this variety of events which I have told you of, the perfect day will come. The things revealed must shortly come to pass (Rev 1:1); they must come in their own order, in the order appointed for them. Know that it is near.” He does not here say what, but it is that which the hearts of his disciples are upon, and which they are inquisitive after, and long for; the kingdom of God is near, so it is expressed in the parallel place, Luk 21:31. Note, When the trees of righteousness begin to bud and blossom, when God's people promise faithfulness, it is a happy presage of good times. In them God begins his work, first prepares their heart, and then he will go on with it; for, as for God, his work is perfect; and he will revive it in the midst of their years.

Now touching the events foretold here, which we are to expect,

1. Christ here assures us of the certainty of them (Mat 24:35); Heaven and earth shall pass away;they continue this day indeed, according to God's ordinance, but they shall not continue for ever (Psa 102:25, Psa 102:26; 2Pe 3:10); but my words shall not pass away. Note, The word of Christ is more sure and lasting than heaven and earth. Hath he spoken? And shall he not do it? We may build with more assurance upon the word of Christ than we can upon the pillars of heaven, or the strong foundations of the earth; for, when they shall be made to tremble and totter, and shall be no more, the word of Christ shall remain, and be in full force, power, and virtue. See 1Pe 1:24, 1Pe 1:25. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass,than the word of Christ; so it is expressed, Luk 16:17. Compare Isa 54:10. The accomplishment of these prophecies might seem to be delayed, and intervening events might seem to disagree with them, but do not think that therefore the word of Christ is fallen to the ground, for that shall never pass away: though it be not fulfilled, either in the time or in the way that we have prescribed; yet, in God's time, which is the best time, and in God's way, which is the best way, it shall certainly be fulfilled. Every word of Christ is very pure, and therefore very sure.

2. He here instructs us as to the time of them, Mat 24:34, Mat 24:36. As to this, it is well observed by the learned Grotius, that there is a manifest distinction made between the tauta (Mat 24:34), and the ekeinē (Mat 24:36), these things,and that day and hour; which will help to clear this prophecy.

(1.) As to these things, the wars, seductions, and persecutions, here foretold, and especially the ruin of the Jewish nation; “This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled (Mat 24:34); there are those now alive, that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end.” Because it might seem strange, he backs it with a solemn asseveration; “Verily, I say unto you. You may take my word for it, these things are at the door.” Christ often speaks of the nearness of that desolation, the more to affect people, and quicken them to prepare for it. Note, There may be greater trials and troubles yet before us, in our own day, than we are aware of. They that are old, know not what sons of Anak may be reserved for their last encounters.

(2.) But as to that day and hour which will put a period to time, that knoweth no man, Mat 24:36. Therefore take heed of confounding these two, as they did, who, from the words of Christ and the apostles; letters, inferred that the day of Christ was at hand, 2Th 2:2. No, it was not; this generation, and many another, shall pass, before that day and hour come. Note, [1.] There is a certain day and hour fixed for the judgment to come; it is called the day of the Lord, because so unalterably fixed. None of God's judgments are adjourned sine die - without the appointment of a certain day. [2.] That day and hour are a great secret.

(2.) To the eternal judgment; so the judgment of the great day is called, Heb 6:2. Though notice has been given of it from Enoch, yet, when it comes, it will be unlooked for by the most of men; the latter days, which are nearest to that day, will produce scoffers, that say, Where is the promise of his coming? 2Pe 3:3, 2Pe 3:4; Luk 18:8. Thus it will be when the world that now is shall be destroyed by fire; for thus it was when the old world, being overflowed by water, perished, 2Pe 3:6, 2Pe 3:7. Now Christ here shows what were the temper and posture of the old world when the deluge came.

The application of this, concerning the old world, we have in these words; So shall the coming of the Son of man be; that is, (1.) In such a posture shall he find people, eating and drinking, and not expecting him. Note, Security and sensuality are likely to be the epidemical diseases of the latter days. All slumber and sleep, and at midnight the bridegroom comes. All are off their watch, and at their ease. (2.) With such a power, and for such a purpose, will he come upon them. As the flood took away the sinners of the old world, irresistibly and irrecoverably; so shall secure sinners, that mocked at Christ and his coming, be taken away by the wrath of the Lamb, when the great day of his wrath comes, which will be like the coming of the deluge, a destruction which there is no fleeing from.

(2.) We may apply it to the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the separation which will be made in that day. He had said before (Mat 24:31), that the elect will be gathered together. Here he tells us, that, in order to that, they will be distinguished from those who were nearest to them in this world; the choice and chosen ones taken to glory, the other left to perish eternally. Those who sleep in the dust of the earth, two in the same grave, their ashed mixed, shall yet arise, one to be taken to everlasting life, the other left to shame and everlasting contempt, Dan 12:2. Here it is applied to them who shall be found alive. Christ will come unlooked for, will find people busy at their usual occupations, in the field, at the mill; and then, according as they are vessels of mercy prepared for glory, or vessels of wrath prepared for ruin, accordingly it will be with them; the one taken to meet the Lord and his angels in the air, to be for ever with him and them; the other left to the devil and his angels, who, when Christ has gathered out his own, will sweep up the residue. This will aggravate the condemnation of sinners that others shall be taken from the midst of them to glory, and they left behind. And it speaks abundance of comfort to the Lord's people. [1.] Are they mean and despised in the world, as the man-servant in the field, or the maid at the mill (Exo 11:5)? Yet they shall not be forgotten or overlooked in that day. The poor in the world, if rich in faith, are heirs of the kingdom.[2.] Are they dispersed in distant and unlikely places, where one would not expect to find the heirs of glory, in the field, at the mill? Yet the angels will find them there (hidden as Saul among the stuff, when they are to be enthroned), and fetch them thence; and well may they be said to be changed, for a very great change it will be to go to heaven from ploughing and grinding. [3.] Are they weak, and unable of themselves to move heavenward? They shall be taken, or laid hold of,as Lot was taken out of Sodom by a gracious violence, Gen 19:16. Those whom Christ has once apprehended and laid hold on, he will never lose his hold of. [4.] Are they intermixed with others, linked with them in the same habitations, societies, employments? Let not that discourage any true Christian; God knows how to separate between the precious and the vile, the gold and dross in the same lump, the wheat and chaff in the same floor.

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claninja said:

I agree to the nearness involved in to the revelation beginning to unfold.

revelation 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

But these events that were to unfold, were to take place "in quickness". I would disagree that that 2,000 years is quick.

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place.

Additionally, consistent interpretation would tell us that the "many days from now" in Daniel 8 should be longer than the "time is near" in revelation 22. If Daniel 8 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, as most Amils agree, then the time is near of revelation should be much shorter (less than a couple hundred years) than the "many days from now" of Daniel 8.

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

Revelation 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

If the Lord does not dwell with us presently while we are in the flesh and no one goes home to be with the Lord upon death, then the new heavens and new earth have not arrived yet. However, if the Lord dwells with us whether we are at his feet or at his throne, then the new heavens and new earth have arrived.

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

If the old covenant is still present, and not one jot or tittle has changed, then the new heavens and earth are not yet present.

Matthew 5:18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.



While Greek lexicons and expository dictionaries are great tools, I am no Greek scholar, thus I like to use commentaries to help.

Did these old writers believe the pope was "the" antichrist, or that he was "an" antichrist?



Matthew Henry doesn't translate "genea" to mean stock or race. He keeps it consistent with the definition of generation.

In regards to "this generation", Matthew Henry associates with those were alive to see the destruction.

As to these things, the wars, seductions, and persecutions, here foretold, and especially the ruin of the Jewish nation; “This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled (Mat 24:34); there are those now alive, that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end.”

In regards to the 2nd coming, he separates it from the destruction of Jerusalem , and states "many another" shall pass in regards to generations.

(2.) But as to that day and hour which will put a period to time, that knoweth no man, Mat 24:36. Therefore take heed of confounding these two, as they did, who, from the words of Christ and the apostles; letters, inferred that the day of Christ was at hand, 2Th 2:2. No, it was not; this generation, and many another, shall pass, before that day and hour come. Note, [1.] There is a certain day and hour fixed for the judgment to come; it is called the day of the Lord, because so unalterably fixed. None of God's judgments are adjourned sine die - without the appointment of a certain day. [2.] That day and hour are a great secret.

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sovereigngrace said:

Please answer: has the new heavens and earth arrived?

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claninja said:

As some misinterpret the new heavens and new earth as to be only a full preterist belief, I’ll respectfully decline to answer on this forum as full preterism is not allowed. However if you wish to discuss the new heavens and earth on the controversial Christian forums, I would be more than happy to answer. Otherwise we can stick to the discussion of the 6th seal and how it relates Luke 23.

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mkgal1 said:

First of all - I don't see how this translation can be accurate in the use of the term "holy race", because even within the text of this specific passage it reveals that the Israel assembly was "mixed" due to the intermarriages.

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mkgal1 said:

Something sort of fascinating to me is that this is within the quote that Thomas posted - yet, instead of seeing FAITHLESSNESS as the reason for the mourning - he sees something else entirely.

Ezra 9:2-3 ~ And in this faithlessness the hand of the officials and chief men has been foremost.” 3 As soon as I heard this, I tore my garment and my cloak and pulled hair from my head and beard and sat appalled.

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mkgal1 said:

[Jesus's ancestor's] election is for the sake of ALL of us and for the sake of the glory of God.

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keras said:

[...]most of them call themselves Jewish[...]
They are in fact, Satan's fake Israel,

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