If you could take one verse, from the Bible, to add to Evolution, to make it stronger?

Gottservant said:

If you could just explain to me, how Jesus is creating those words - specifically the ones that you think could work, in a best case scenario - even in a way that is "Evolved" I would really understand what you were getting at when you said "Evolution is 'true'". Don't be afraid, you won't hurt Jesus, if you're sensible at least, anyway - I'm just trying to work out, what it is you embrace from my perspective, when you take up the mantle of Evolution. So which words would it be? See the poll!Thanks.

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A huge part of evolution is true. Animals change over time and they are a result of the union of their two parents. They reproduce after their own kind, both through the physical and the mental influences.

What part of scripture is missing from that story? The part explaining that God is in complete control of evolution.
Here you go:

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Hebrews 4:13
And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

Matthew 10:30
But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Psalm 147:4
He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names.

Romans 11:33-36
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Isaiah 42:9
Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Isaiah 46:9-10
Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Psalm 139:4
Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Psalm 139:1-6
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...

Jeremiah 29:11s
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Matthew 10:29-30
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you only, know the hearts of all the children of mankind),

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Job 34:21
“For his eyes are on the ways of a man, and he sees all his steps.

Job 37:16
Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,

Psalm 139:7-10
Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Proverbs 5:21
For a man's ways are before the eyes of the Lord, and he ponders all his paths.

Psalm 33:13-15
The Lord looks down from heaven; he sees all the children of man; from where he sits enthroned he looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth, he who fashions the hearts of them all and observes all their deeds.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.

Acts 2:23
This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Amos 4:13
For behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the Lord, the God of hosts, is his name!

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God.”

Job 42:2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Psalm 147:5
Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Jeremiah 32:17
‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you.

Genesis 1:3
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Jeremiah 32:27
“Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?

John 1:3
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Psalm 139:7
Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Isaiah 50:2
Why, when I came, was there no man; why, when I called, was there no one to answer? Is my hand shortened, that it cannot redeem? Or have I no power to deliver? Behold, by my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a desert; their fish stink for lack of water and die of thirst.

Acts 17:10-11
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

Psalm 135:6
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psalm 72:18
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who alone does wondrous things.

Gottservant said:

Hi there,

So I am sort of running out of ideas as to what to contrast Evolution with - gravity doesn't make sense to Evolutionists "as a law", epigenetics is irrelevant to butterflies, and there is no real answer to the ubiquity (or lack thereof) of certain adaptations. What seems to matter is that Evolutionists can "beg the connection", plead the fifth about mutation and put their soul's destiny in doubt over the hubris that apes are a flattery (to the human race) - not an emphasis. It really doesn't look like people want to know, what they say "is known", because they don't make a way forward in simple steps, from what we were, to what we could "adjust" to have become.

Now, I'm not saying I understand better than Evolution - if you can't understand it, how can it be better? - but I am saying that I understand something, that has never proven to be false - doubtful perhaps (there's always Thomas - what would he evolve?") but never false. What I understood, were the words of Jesus. If I was going to make any sort of effort to be a "better Evolution" (even as a species, if you want to complain that all of us need to be part of it) I would start with those words. Words like "go the extra mile", "turn the other cheek" and so on and so forth.

So you see, I have not been reduced to a point where I can make no argument, but rather that I have been pushed back along the dirt trail of a living and dying humanity, to a place where all Jesus' words began! Not that I now give up those words, bit by bit, but that you start to see how I tick, whether I believe in Evolution or not. The real clincher, is that I can't do it without you! Indeed rather than beat around the bush further, let me ask: what words of Jesus would you start with? To make it stronger? This really is me, asking you, to have a say in how I interpret, what I believe to be true - from the perspective of that which cannot change: the words themselves.

I am not saying the words of Jesus are invincible, I'm saying the words are enough. If you could just explain to me, how Jesus is creating those words - specifically the ones that you think could work, in a best case scenario - even in a way that is "Evolved" I would really understand what you were getting at when you said "Evolution is 'true'". Don't be afraid, you won't hurt Jesus, if you're sensible at least, anyway - I'm just trying to work out, what it is you embrace from my perspective, when you take up the mantle of Evolution.

So which words would it be? See the poll!

Thanks.

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Woah dude, calm down there. I think the first mistake you're making is believing that the Bible needs to 'prove' evolution. For one, the Bible, if anything, is a history book first, reminder second--it is not a science book. The validity of the Bible and Christianity does not hinge on any aspect of science(unless of course, you're debating the validity of the events in the first five books of the Bible--in which case it's a toss-up whether or not they were meant to be taken 'literally', as from what I've heard, a lot of our early church fathers did not hold that view)

The point is, it doesn't matter how we were created, so much as we acknowledge that God created us. Even if evolution explains the more 'important' aspects of our development as a species, it does not explain the origins of life; just like science has yet to explain the exact origin/starting point of inducing 'life' or 'consciousness' into something that is not medically considered alive. Or, explaining precisely how the universe came into existence if matter cannot be created or destroyed--just a few among many other questions we haven't answered yet.

Another fun fact, though; we don't actually know how long it took God to make us, or how long the 'days' in genesis were. Further than that, the very first few verses in genesis would imply that the earth itself existed before God had even started forming life...which means it could've been around for millions of years, potentially.

But here's the bottom line; don't obsess over science vs religion. Science is literally just observing and learning to understand what is around us, and in no way does that have to compete with our belief in God. There have been many intellectual--even Christian--figures in the past. Galileo, Isaac Newton, Francis Collins, Lewis Carroll, and C.S. Lewis to name a few. Einstein also was a theist; though I can't say whether he believed in the Abrahamic God specifically

Remember, science is not the ultimate truth. None of us can produce a falsifiable, universal 'truth'.

Gottservant said:

Hi there, So I am sort of running out of ideas as to what to contrast Evolution with...

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Need scriptural proof that God is in control of evolution?
Here you go:

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Natural selection in action, in scripture.

Luke 12:6
Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God.

Genesis 9:3
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Tree of life, it's in genesis. Nothing new here at all in regards to life interconnected. It's in notebook B of Darwins.

Darwins narrative is a third person narrative and there is a flaw in this in regards to the topic. "I Think" is third person, and it's disconnected from the topic itself. Tree of life is not a car engine. This third person is primary perspective is a false idea of evolution that the observer is independent from it. If the observer is not independent from it then no third person narrative it fundamental. factually. The same goes for the Topic GOD. Nature God same thing just 2 different sounds is all.

Gottservant said:

what words of Jesus would you start with?

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We start with the first word in the Bible: "Beginning" We start with the first letter of the first word in the Bible : B and this represents a Tent. God's desire to dwell in and with man. The Be as in Ben represents the Son. One understanding of the letters in the word: Beginning is that Jesus was given as a grain offering so that Heaven and Earth could be reconciled and become one. We are told that we are to pray: Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on Earth as in Heaven. We are to become one with God as Heaven and Earth are united and they become one.

We can also look at Genesis 1:26: "God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image" Us means Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We are to be made in their image. God desires to dwell with us and in us. If I were to look into anything else it would be the "Foundation of the World". "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." (Ephesian1:4) ". And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast— all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." (Rev 13:8) David tells us in Psalm 139:16 that God writes the book of our life before we are even born. Every chapter and every verse. Also we read about how our name appears in a book of life from the foundation of the world. I do not know about this foundation, but I would like to know. We read about these books in Rev 20:12: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." So they say the angels watch over us to record what we do in life. To make a written record.

Another place we could start in Genesis 1:27 "male and female he created them". Just when did God make us male and female? We know why so we could be united together and become one as Jesus wants to be united with us. Or we could start with Holiness and Sanctification. Because God can not put up with sin & transgression forever. We see this in the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle in the wilderness. This is the tent God wants to dwell in. When Jesus died the vail was torn and we have access to the Most Holy Place though the Blood of Jesus.

Some people begin with Rev 12:4 "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth."

So the words of Jesus that we start with are: Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven. "creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (Romans 8:22)

coastal_hiker said:

Tree of life, it's in genesis.

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Genesis chapter 2: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," Also Genesis chapter three in Eden we have the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil and the serpent. This is a manifestation of the dragon that swept a third of the "stars" from Heaven.

theoneandonlypencil said:

For one, the Bible, if anything, is a history book first, reminder second--it is not a science book.

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The Bible is very much a Science book. Science talks about a common ancestor and the Bible talks about the Generations. Science likes to use the words Adam, Eve & Eden even if the scientific meaning is different then their meaning in the Bible. They use them as Archetype and not for their literature value.

When Science tells us we can not go back to Eden they mean we can not reverse evolution. You can not unscramble an egg. Although some people believe the future controls the past.

joshua 1 9 said:

The Bible is very much a Science book. Science talks about a common ancestor and the Bible talks about the Generations. Science likes to use the words Adam, Eve & Eden even if the scientific meaning is different then their meaning in the Bible. They use them as Archetype and not for their literature value.

When Science tells us we can not go back to Eden they mean we can not reverse evolution. You can not unscramble an egg. Although some people believe the future controls the past.

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No, it's not. The Bible is meant to give us spiritual guidance, not scientific explanations. It is no more a science book than it is a technological manual. I'm sure there are a lot of metaphors for scientific stuff, but that's far from qualifying it as a science book.

Furthermore, I've never heard science using words like 'Adam', 'Eve' or 'Eden'. Even if they did, none of those names are particularly meaningful outside of scripture except for possibly eden; and that's a stretch.

theoneandonlypencil said:

The Bible is meant to give us spiritual guidance, not scientific explanations.

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God gives us fossils. He wants a record of what HE has done so we can see what He has done in this world. This is called the natural record and we do not even have to do the work to gather the evidence together. The atheists do that for us. They do all the dirty work and we reap all the benefits. The Triobite for example is so common that you can buy them for $1. In the rocky mountains the bones of dinosaurs are very common. They are found in flood deposits all the way from New Mexico to Montana. One guy built a house out of them.

theoneandonlypencil said:

Furthermore, I've never heard science using words like 'Adam', 'Eve' or 'Eden'.

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Then you never read Time magazine. The Adam and Eve for Science are different then the "Jewish" Adam and Eve. People forget that the Bible is about the Adam and Eve that lived in Eden and their descendants. Haplogroup J-M304, also known as J, is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup. We are not talking about all of mankind in the Bible. We are only talking about one of the Haplogroups. My son can be traced back to genghis khan. Which should not surprise anyone sense genghis khan 16 million descendants today. The people we read about in the Bible are the least of all people: "The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples." (Deut 7:7) The Bible uses archetypes. Today it is common to use the word paradigm. There are many Edens and there are many Eves. In China there are said to be a matriarch women for every large city. Worldwide there are at least 18 Eves. Not just the "Jewish" Eve we read about in Eden. Although this is a very important bio diverse eco system because this is where civilization began. This is the beginning of domesticated plants and animals. China has their own Eden because the food they eat in the East is different from the food we find in Eden in the Tigris Euphrates River valley. Bryan Sykes wrote a book called: The 7 daughters of Eve that explains a lot of this. Also the work they have done on the Cohen Gene is important.

Gottservant said:

So I am sort of running out of ideas as to what to contrast Evolution with - gravity doesn't make sense to Evolutionists "as a law"

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As Newton pointed out, it's a theory, not a law. Let me help.

1. Kepler showed how planets moved around the sun. His laws of planetary motion accurately predicts the motion of planets. But they don't explain why it happens. That's how laws work in science.

2. Newton perceived that Kepler's laws work because there is a force he called gravitation, and this force not only predicts the movement of planets, but the motion of the moon, and even apples falling from trees. His theory of gravitation went beyond a mere law and explained why the laws work. To be a theory, a hypothesis must be repeatedly tested and verified by evidence.

epigenetics is irrelevant to butterflies

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You've been misled...

A new study appearing today (November 14) in Current Biology takes a stab at answering that question. The research demonstrates that while lookalike Heliconius species employ the same gene to guide wing coloration, it is likely under different epigenetic control—ultimately suggesting there’s more than one way to arrive at the same coloration. The findings complement those of another study in PNAS this week that takes a deep dive into the regulatory networks that underlie color patterning in the Heliconius genus, illustrating how the insects use relatively few genes to generate such striking diversity.

“It’s cool stuff. . . . You can do the same thing in a number of different ways,” remarks James Mallet, an evolutionary biologist at Harvard University. “There are maybe quite a variety of different ways that you can twiddle the knobs to get the same common pattern.”
Gene Regulation Gives Butterflies Their Stunning Looks

, and there is no real answer to the ubiquity (or lack thereof) of certain adaptations.

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You were misled there, too. Let's take a look at flying. Birds and pterosaurs have/had flight. But there's a problem inherent in flight. The more maneuverable a flier is the less stable he is. And instability requires rapid, precise control. So what?

So early on, flying organisms need to be very stable, before precise control evolves. That means we see long tails on primitive fliers like Rhamphrhynchus, which function like a tail on a kite to stabilize it. Later pterosaurs had very small tails or no tails at all. So what?

So we see the same thing in birds. Pheasants aren't very good fliers, and avoid it most of the time. They have long stabilizing tail feathers. Bateluer Eagles have almost no tails, and are remarkably agile in the air.

But both classes of fliers came up with the same adaptations. Not the same genes; just analogous structures that are derived differently, but do the same things.

What seems to matter is that Evolutionists can "beg the connection", plead the fifth about mutation

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If you think so, you don't know any scientists.

and put their soul's destiny in doubt over the hubris that apes are a flattery (to the human race) - not an emphasis.

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Could you rephrase that in English?

Now, I'm not saying I understand better than Evolution - if you can't understand it, how can it be better?

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What about "descent with modification" do you have trouble understanding? The basic idea is pretty easy, even if the details get rather hard.

The real clincher, is that I can't do it without you! Indeed rather than beat around the bush further, let me ask: what words of Jesus would you start with? To make it stronger? This really is me, asking you, to have a say in how I interpret, what I believe to be true - from the perspective of that which cannot change: the words themselves.

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What words of Jesus would you use to better support nuclear fission? I'm puzzled why you think He would have said anything about these. Do you know what the point of His ministry here was, and why He came?

I am not saying the words of Jesus are invincible, I'm saying the words are enough.

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Not if you want to find out about viruses. That wasn't His purpose here. Go figure.