WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

Josheb said:

I haveanswered your question and already addressed this matter. I have already answered the questions you're asking. This is a text-based medium. Those answers are not going anywhere; the are sitting silently in the discussion completely ignored by you when you ask questions already answered. Think about what I posted. I should not have to repost content already posted.

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So, no one has a right to further question what you have already answered?

DavidPT said:

Unless Christ physically leaves heaven first, thus the 2nd coming, there cannot be a rapture prior to that.

How many times did Christ come the first time, thus the first coming? He only came one time, and that started with Him being born into this world. When He returns, He will only be returning one time and not multiple times, and that His return involves a rapture preceded by a rising of the righteous dead. But you seem to think a rapture can happen without Him even physically returning first, as in the 2nd coming, the only coming left for Him to fulfill.

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World War III, total annihilation of the human race.... could be triggered by a muslim incognito, slips in amongst an assembly of Christians - quietly utters the term "rapture" and a spontaneous explosion of arguments create a chain reaction of events. .... I was only noting what the major views are, David. But it's okay, I know you only want to correct me.

To your credit, you did say....Unless Christ physically leaves heaven first, thus the 2nd coming, there cannot be a rapture prior to that.

Barring setting off WWIII, I argue that in the rapture event, Jesus comes, not at His Return down to earth to the Mt. of Olives splitting it apart, but at some unknown time from the third heaven, to the first heaven, to resurrect the dead in Christ and change them who are alive at the time; and together in their new eternal bodies return with Jesus to the third heaven while the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

And return with Jesus in this verse...

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

I yield the last word on the rapture in this thread to you, David.

Douggg said:

I am anytime rapture view meaning that the rapture could happen any time between now and when it actually takes place....

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Thanks for that. I'll make not of this and try to remember this in the future.


I am aware that Jesus' mention of Noah's days in Matthew 24 occurs after verses 15-31 and outside of the Luke 21 text, but you are aware that in the days of Noah it was those who were taken away that were destroyed and it was those who remained that were saved, yes?

DavidPT said:

So, no one has a right to further question what you have already answered?

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No one has question what I posted. What they've done is bring up other matters and completely ignored the specifics of what I posted. That is common practice. It doesn't work with me because I know how to stay on topic and when I digress I usually conclude my post with a reference back to the topic at hand or the point of dispute.

Watch my posts and see.


This op is about the harlot of Revelation 17. The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention. One of the most basic of rules in sound exegesis is to first understand the text as it would have been understood by the author and his first century audience.

I must have moosted this four or five times in this op and no one hs attended to a single word of it. The first reply I got said those were the colors of RCC, too. It completely ignores what I posted.

So no one has done what you've suggested. And there are no "rights" here, David. That is entitlement thinking. If I practice that thinking then I tell you the following: you can post anything you like but I have the right to ignore anything and everything not specifically relevant to either the op or my op-reply. No one address the harlot's attire and no one has dealt with the "near." A variety of tangents were attempted, but no one actually questioned what I have already answered. They questioned content I never broached.

And when I pointed that out everyone got [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]y, labeled my posts and questioned my faculties.

Look and see.




This op is about the harlot of Revelation 17. The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention. One of the most basic of rules in sound exegesis is to first understand the text as it would have been understood by the author and his first century audience. Most of what happens in Revelation is explicitly stated to occur quickly (not soon) because the time was near. The word "near" means near and scripture uses the word "near" many, many times and in all those uses it never means anything other than near.


Folks react to those facts but no one has actually attended to those specifics; they've question claims that hev nothing to do with any of that content.

You included. This discussion is not about people's rights. That's a red herring.

Josheb said:

I am aware that Jesus' mention of Noah's days in Matthew 24 occurs after verses 15-31 and outside of the Luke 21 text, but you are aware that in the days of Noah it was those who were taken away that were destroyed and it was those who remained that were saved, yes?

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Yes, I am aware of it. Noah and his family, were spared judgement, were saved from death by drowning, and went on to live years afterward in their natural bodies. I think the bible verse is putting emphasize on that many will not believe what is coming is gong to happen, although preached for years like in Noah's day, and end up going through the time of testing of everyone on the earth.

Luke 21;34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Josheb said:

The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention. One of the most basic of rules in sound exegesis is to first understand the text as it would have been understood by the author and his first century audience.

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I did an image search on the levite priesthood garments, and these are some of them. I am not seeing purple and scarlet together as predominant colors. I can see purple in the first image. But it seems blue is the predominant color. What do you think?









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compared to....







...I am thinking, Vatican.

@ewq1938, that's an interesting point.

My thoughts are that the two witnesses are killed by the beast, which means the person has gone into the temple and has claimed to be God, and is being worshiped. Which in that environment, Jerusalem will have become defiled, spiritually in likeness as things were in Sodom and Egypt. And the two witnesses bodies will lie there in the street for three and a half days, before come back to life and ascending to heaven.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Douggg said:

Who is that angel fallen from heaven unto the earth?

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Who cares ? an Angel is a Messenger of God. The STAR {Angel} opened the pit, not Satan.

Douggg said:

Who is the king of Babylon, who has fallen from heaven, in Isaiah 14:12?

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We know Satan/Lucifer is cast down, but that is not THIS STAR in Rev. 9, and the Isaiah verse may be about Lucifer already being cast out of "ANOTHER HEAVEN" because he was called Lucifer in the verse, which was his Angelic name before he God turned against him.

Douggg said:

Who is going to get cast down to earth, exposed before kings, that they may behold him in Ezekiel 28:17 ?

Who's kingdom must be destroyed, before the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ, in Revelation 11:15 ?

That person is the king of Mystery Babylon the Great.

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Again, you conflate scriptures and try to prove they correlate, when they don't. Just like the Anti-Christ never becomes the King of the Jews, you just ASSUME that.

Douggg said:

governments of the world were not responsible for the slaying of Abel. Mystery, Babylon the Great had to be in existence at that time in order to be responsible for....

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

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https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Revelation-18-24/

FALSE GOVERNANCE WAS........He should not have been punished for obeying God, that is FALSE GOVERNANCE. All Evil Governments start with men, this its a fine line, a seed, you trying to get "SUPER TECHNICAL" on these issues really just proves your arguments are losing the day brother.

Douggg said:

I think the bible verse is putting emphasize on...

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You think? That's the problem.

You don't get to interpret scripture to fit a pre-existing view. But that is what futurists do constantly. Eisegesis, not exegesis.

What you mean is "I believe the Bible verse is putting emphasis on....." or "I imagine the Bible verse is putting emphasis on....." A "thinking" reading would follow the long- and well-established rules of sound exegesis.

Douggg said:

...36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

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Yep, and as I stated in my last post:

The ones who escaped all those things that came to pass in the flood were the ones who remained.

Two will be working on the roof; one will remain and the other will be taken. Two will be working in the field and one will remain and the other will be taken.

As it was in the days of Noah.

In the days of Noah it was the ones who remained that escaped the things that came to pass in the flood. The passage is not a rapture passage. Rapturists reverse what happened and eisegtically re-interpret the passage to support a rapture when the facts of scripture are the exact opposite of their interpretation.

I'm not saying there isn't a passage that supports a rapture as some rapturists imagine it might happen. I am simply and solely saying the Matthew 24 and Luke 17 texts cannot be used to support such a rapture if we 1) read the text as written and 2) let scripture interpret scripture, 3) understand the text as the first century audience would have understood it. Exegesis, not eisegesis.

Think about it.

DavidPT said:

Since some are still adamant that the woman(city) in Revelation 17 is not the woman(city) in Revelation 18, let's do some more comparing then.

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

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In both instances they are COMMITTING Harlotry. They are Royalty and Religious Orders hence Scarlet and Purple always stands for Royalty and Pious Orders.

Revelation 17 and 18 is taken from Dan. chapter 5.

Dan. 5:1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. 2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.

3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. 4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone.

5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. 6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.

7 The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.

Dan. 5:25 And this is the writing that was written, Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

Notice the King, his lords etc. etc. represent the Governments, and they DRANK WINE out of God's holy cups, celebrating the FALSE gods of silver, gold, wood and stone, then after the hand wrote MENE, MENE TEKEL on the wall he called in his Astrologers and Soothsayers.

So its BY DEFINITION, both Government and Religion that God is speaking about in Rev. chapters 17 and 18. Not one or the other. So of course they match up in their descriptions in that BOTH committed Harlotry against God Almighty. But they are DIFFERENT ENTITIES just like the Kings and Lords were different from the Astrologers and Soothsayers.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

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THIS VERSE shows they are DIFFERENT ENTITIES..........

Rev. 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

In the verse you cited above, the Kings HATE the Harlot, but here the LOVE Babylon.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

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All this does is point John back to the VISION HE SAW in verses 3-6, BABYLON THE GREAT.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Revelation 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

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Both of these verses PROVES this is the whole world getting hit by God's Plagues, because the TIMELINES show that its a 42 Month Judgment. The ONE DAY means the Day of the Lord which we know lasts 42 months, and the ONE HOUR likewise is 42 Months, as we can clearly see in Revelation 17:12, where the Kings rule ONE HOUR {42 Months} with the Beast.

DavidPT said:

I don't know how anyone can conclude, regardless of what one might think Babylon the great is referring to, that the city in Revelation 17, and the city in Revelation 18, that these are not the same city. Of course they are the same city. There are not 2 different great cities in view between Revelation 17 and 18. There is only one great city in view between those 2 chapters.

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Of course they are............Babylon the Great which WAS AROUND during the Harlots time was thus co-mingled with the Harlot False Religions, just like the Dan. 5 verses above show they were. And the Babylon of Rev. 18 is a Metaphor for the WHOLE WORLD because there is no Babylon now. The TIMING MATTERS. Babylon was a REAL CITY that was co-mingled with All False Religion {Harlot}. The Babylon that gets Judged over a 42 month period of time is the WHOLE WORLD as Rev. 16:19 shows us.

Douggg said:

I did an image search on the levite priesthood garments, and these are some of them. I am not seeing purple and scarlet together as predominant colors. I can see purple in the first image. But it seems blue is the predominant color. What do you think?

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I think 1) you should read through the posts again so you're not repeating content already addressed and wasting our time, and 2) you should garner your understanding of scripture first from scripture, not Google.

Read Exodus chapters 25-28 and 35-39. Here's a sampling of what you'll find:




There are fifty-two mentions of purple and scarlet describing the materials that went into the tabernacle and the priestly garments.

Would the first century audience have understood,

The institution of Judaism was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

...or...

The future institution of the Roman Catholic Church was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.


You've cited Matthew 24:15-31. Are you aware that Matthew's narrative covers a single day, the day after Jesus entered Jerusalem and that narrative encompasses five chapters of Matthew's gospel? The narrative begins at Matthew 21:18 and ends at Matthew 26:5. It was a busy day for Jesus.

Look it up.

Are you aware Jesus was practicing the OT laws when he chased the money changers out of the temple? In theOT when a house was infested with mold of disease it had to be emptied and cleaned out and left deserted for seven days. If, after seven days, the mold of disease was gone then the house could be re-inhabited. If the disease returned then the house had to be destroyed.

Jesus cleaned out the house of God.

The next day he returned to find it re-infested. First the "chief priests and elders" and the "chief priests and Pharisees" came to challenge him. Then the Pharisees plotted anothr attempt to "trap" him and he showed them up again. Then the Sadducees made an attempt. When that didn't work the Pharisees returned and we're only a chapter and a half into that days narrative! In the next chapter we have the "eight woes" chapter wherein Jesus lambasts the scribes and Pharisees, calling them white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones. He concludes the indictment with a judgment:


What does Revelation say about the harlot?


It was Jerusalem who killed the prophets and it was Jerusalem that first persecuted and executed the saints, not Rome and not the Roman Catholic Church. Saul was one of those persecutors until God knocked him of his donkey on the road to Damascus. There wasn't even and RCC to do any persecuting when the first century audience first read the book of Revelation!

Look it up. See if what I just posted is true or not. Don't change the subject. Don't bring in different scripture. Don't attempt to post an alternative. There's time for all that later. First, deal with what I posted.

Notice also that after Jesus enters Jerusalem his parables turn to parables of judgment. The Jewish leaders repeatedly realize he is talking about them. He's talking about them, not the RCC.

Identify the author and his original audience.
Read the text as written with an ordinary meaning of the language unless there is something in the text indicating the text should be read otherwise.
Understand the text as the author and his first century readers would have understood it.
Consider the local and global contests.
Let scripture first interpret scripture, especially any figures of speech or symbolic language.

These are some of the most basic, fundamental, and foundational rules of exegesis.



This op is about the harlot of Revelation 17. The harlot is said to wear purple and scarlet and those are the colors of the Levitical priesthood, which is what the first century reader would have understood in reference to that mention. The harlot is said to be drunk on the blood of the saints and it was Jerusalem who at that time had killed the prophets and saints. There are over 340 references to the OT in John's Revelation. One of the most basic of rules in sound exegesis is to first understand the text as it would have been understood by the author and his first century audience. Most of what happens in Revelation is explicitly stated to occur quickly (not soon) because the time was near. The word "near" means near and scripture uses the word "near" many, many times and in all those uses it never means anything other than near.

ewq1938 said:

No, Jerusalem starts out as a holy city in Rev 11 then later is called Sodom and Egypt. Babylon is rel8gious confusion and Jerusalem is but one city out of basically all the cities of the world which will be part of Babylon........

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You're coming to the party late, ewq. Go back to the beginning and read through the posts because the content of your post has already been covered.

Revealing Times said:

THIS VERSE shows they are DIFFERENT ENTITIES..........

Rev. 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

In the verse you cited above, the Kings HATE the Harlot, but here the LOVE Babylon.

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Too much for me to try and address in your post, so I will try and take on this part for now.

Obviously the kings of the earth meant in Revelation 18:9 can't include the 10 kings meant in Revelation 17 if the city in both of these chapters are one and the same, my position.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

If the woman that they burn with fire is only meaning the woman in Revelation 17, and not the woman in Revelation 18, your position, then show where in Revelation 17 a woman is ever burned with fire? Why even mention that in that verse if it's something we never see anything further written about it? But if we consider Revelation 18, maybe there is something further being written about it. But first let's look at verse 17.

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The text says---For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will. Any reason that can't also include God putting it in their hearts to burn her with fire? Let's now look at Revelation 18.

Revelation 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

The pronoun 'you' can't be meaning the kings of the earth in verse 9 who are seen lamenting her, since it wouldn't make sense for them to reward her as she rewarded them, then they lamenting her afterwards. The pronoun 'you' is apparently meaning the 10 kings in Revelation 17.

And notice what it eventually leads to---

Revelation 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


The text says---and she shall be utterly burned with fire---thus connecting back to Revelation 17:16-17, where we are initially told the 10 kings shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Unless you can show where in Revelation 17 that that woman is burned with fire in that chapter, that has to mean you are incorrect to conclude that there are two great cities in view between Revelation 17 and 18, rather than just one great city in view.

claninja said:

Can you use scripture to interpret scripture? We already disagree on the interpretation of a highly symbolic book, so using revelation to interpret revelation is going to get us nowhere. Can you provide scriptures outside of revelation to substantiate that your interpretation of the Babylon is the right one?

I'll start:

In Babylon is found blood of the prophets and saints.
Revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that the generation of 1st century Jerusalem was charged with the blood shed of the righteous, of the prophets. Thus the identity of Babylon is revealed.

Luke 11:50 As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world,

Matthew 23:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

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These two passages have nothing to do with each other, as per the timing, IMHO. One is about the Generation of the Jews in Jesus' time, they indeed suffered the punishment via the 70 AD Event and this becoming as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, however, they still can't have the Blood of ALL the Saints/Prophets of old AND the Martyrs of Jesus on their hands can they ? False Religion and False Government can. When Cain slew Abel, that was a form of both FALSE RELIGION {He was Jealous, God sees Jealousy as a Sin} and FALSE GOVERNANCE {No man should be killed unjustly}. So again, this CONFLATES the issues. Its ALL FALSE RELIGION and its ALL FALSE GOVERNANCE, of which Judaism was a part and still is, as is the SDA and Mormons IMHO. But if the passage can't be fulfill by the choice selected then the choice one has made is wrong, because God never is.

claninja said:

However, if it is not in fact Jerusalem as you claim, can you provide any scripture elsewhere in the Bible where another city, peoples, or nation is charged with all the righteous blood shed?

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Its common sense, by deduction. Only ALL FALSE RELIGION can be charged as Guilty.

Josheb said:

Think about it.

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Josheb said:

You think? That's the problem.

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DavidPT said:

And if one reads Revelation 17 and 18 carefully, one should not be concluding that there are 2 great cities in view, but should be concluding that there is just 1 great city that is in view. In Revelation 17, according to that chapter, the harlot in question is a great city. In Revelation 18, according to that chapter, the Babylon the great in question is also a great city. So either we have 2 great cities between the 2 chapters, or we only have 1 great city between the 2 chapters. The latter is the logical conclusion to arrive at.

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That's right, because THAT GREAT CITY isn't the Harlot, it is just one of THREE DESCRIPTORS of who the Harlot is. In the time Babylon was an existing City, she was noted for Harlotry/False gods.

In Rev. 18, the end times Judgment, Babylon is no more, its used as a CODE WORD for the whole world. The word Babylon was just ONE CLUE as to who she is.

So she was an actual city where THE harlot thrived. She is a Metaphor for Satan's Kingdom on this earth in Rev. 18.

That is why its a GREAT CITY Clue in one and not in the other per se. But in Rev. 16:19, where God says he sees those he DEFEATS as Babylon the great, that should give you a clue to who God is speaking about, Vial #6 tells us it the Kings of the WHOLE EARTH. So the answer is provided.

DavidPT said:

Unless Christ physically leaves heaven first, thus the 2nd coming, there cannot be a rapture prior to that.

How many times did Christ come the first time, thus the first coming? He only came one time, and that started with Him being born into this world. When He returns, He will only be returning one time and not multiple times, and that His return involves a rapture preceded by a rising of the righteous dead. But you seem to think a rapture can happen without Him even physically returning first, as in the 2nd coming, the only coming left for Him to fulfill.

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He clearly came way more than ONCE to the Disciples, John 20 proves it. He told Marty TOUCH ME NOT, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, then 8 days later he told Thomas to thrust his hand into his wounds. So Jesus had to go to the Father and offer the Sacrifice, else the Pentecost would not have happened. And the reason Mary couldn't touch Jesus was her Sin Nature would have DEFILED the Sacrifice.