The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

sovereigngrace,

1. The 7 cycle theory is nothing new and is not right.
Your basis of the great confrontation between the kingdom of God (light) and the kingdom of darkness (Satan) is only one aspect though the overall. Nothing new about that Genesis 3:15; 22-24; Revelation 11:15; 20:10-15; Revelation 21-22.

2. The 7 churches is about Christ coming at the Second advent Revelation 1:7.
Christ coming from Heaven to earth Revelation 19:11-20 to establish the earthly Kingdom of Heaven on earth Revelation 11:15.

3. The 7th seal, silence in Heaven is not about Armageddon.
It is a Yom Kippur service who the 7 angels had the prayer of saints and they had to prepare before they sound. Revelation 8:1-6.

4. Revelation 6 is not the Day of the Lord. It is is the Antichrist coming to power Revelation 6:1-8.
Vs 9-11 shows the 1st martyrs of the tribulation and they would have to wait for their brethren who had to be martyred which wasn’t until the end of the tribulation Revelation 14:13 Blessed dead; 15:1-2 those that sang the song of Moses and the Lamb who didn’t take the mark of the beast etc. These two companies went to Heaven for they were in 1st resurrection that will rule and reign in the KoH Revelation 20:4-6.
The 6th seal leads to the wrath of the Lamb vs 16-17.
The wrath of the Lamb are the trumpet judgements which follow the seals Revelation 8:1-12:17.

5. The 144,000 Jews is literal and they are not the earthly remnant for they are protected through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4 and raptured in the days of the 7 the trumpet as the manchild (future) according to Revelation 1:19 and stated as raptured in Revelation 14:1-5.
Revelation 11:15 were voices in Heaven but not being fulfilled until after the 7 vials is over and Armageddon is over Revelation 16:16-21.
11:15 signifies that great confrontation is almost over because in Revelation 12 is the turning point where Satan gives his power,seat, and authority to the Antichrist Revelation 13 for 1260 days 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1-2.
The 7th trumpet is not the last Trump for the pre-trib rapture or the the second advent. Why? Because the 7 vials have to follow after the trumpets.
Plus you would have to under the Jewish feast and blowing of trumpets which I don’t have time to explain.

6. The 7 trumpet days Revelation 8-12 are prophetic trumpet judgements on nature and to hurt and kill men.
Revelation 8-9 were the 6th trumpet judgements
Revelation 10 is a parenthetical because it interrupts the main thought of the trumpet judgements.
The mighty angel is about the kinsman redeemer in the Hebraic perspective.
Verse 7 talks about the mystery of God being finished in the days of the 7th angel which was 11:15-12-17.
They mystery of God is not the 2nd advent for it was known all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament.
In Revelation 12 the accuser of the brethren would fit that bill more Revelation 12:10-13.
There is another scenario that there should be time no longer about what Daniel said though I am not as familiar with. But as I said before time should be no longer has the idea of delay in the time of fulfillment of the mystery of God will be no longer.
Time is eternal so it couldn’t end.
The 2nd advent has to wait for the 7 vials to be fulfilled.

7. Revelation 14 is a parenthetical. Vs 14-16 is symbolic of Armageddon. Vs 17-20 is the second picture of Armageddon. It doesn’t happen till Revelation 16:16.

8. Revelation 11:15-18 happen in Heaven not on earth.
The 1000 years is all about reigning Revelation 20:4 Revelation 5:9-10.
We are being trained right now for the future 1000 year millennial kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12.

9. The 7 vials is the wrath of God and it is reserved for the kingdom beast worshippers Revelation 16:1-2. This is why it is not the same as the wrath of the lamb Revelation 6:16-17.
It does lead to the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:16 which ends the tribulation. The MK follows for it is theocracy of the KoH reign where Christ rules all over the earth Zechariah 14:9 on the Day of the Lord.

10. Revelation 19:11-20 is the Battle of Armageddon.

11. If all Christ does is to come back to shepherd then there is no reason for saints to rule and reign.
Isaiah shows there will be sinners in the MK Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16:2-2; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:7-10.
Rebels that commit sins of death will be done away with the rod of iron Isaiah 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20.
The rebels in heart that abide by the outward law will be allowed to live and if they don’t get saved they will be a part of the last rebellion Revelation 20:7-9.
They will be destroyed vs 9 resurrected, Acts 24:15 and judged at the GWTJ Revelation 20:12-15.

12. Figurative bonding of Satan? Upon what scripture? That is just your opinion!
That makes the loosing of Satan figurative and the last rebellion figurative and Satan being thrown into the Lake of fire being figurative.
There is no consistency in interpretation with made up allegorical interpretation.
There is a literal bottomless pit and hell etc. Revelation 1:18; 9:1 cp. Revelation 3:7; Isaiah 22:22.
Camp of the saints and the beloved city are the Jewish saints and Jerusalem which belongs to Israel.

13. Your parallels are not overwhelming and your overall cycles are not either.
So you have an opinion and that is your right but not scriptural based in proper context.

14. In conclusion, God has no reason for us to guess at parallels or what looks like it makes sense to one or what it appears in perception.
The seals, trumpets, vials being consecutive is the key to understand that the parenthetical passages basically work in and around the seals, trumpets and vials.
There is a purpose why the parenthetical passages have a reason they are in positions they are in though they may have different times of fulfillment.
For example, Revelation 7 has the 144,000 Jewish evangelists coming onto the scene in the latter part of the 1st half of the tribulation and became a heavenly people in 2nd half of the tribulation in Revelation 14:1-5 as the first fruits of the tribulation in the 7th trumpet days as the manchild.
The great multitude in Revelation 7 covers the whole tribulation martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.
The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God being different is why trying to match up the 7the seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7 the vial doesn’t work. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. The 7 cycle theory is nothing new and is not right.
Your basis of the great confrontation between the kingdom of God (light) and the kingdom of darkness (Satan) is only one aspect though the overall. Nothing new about that Genesis 3:15; 22-24; Revelation 11:15; 20:10-15; Revelation 21-22.

2. The 7 churches is about Christ coming at the Second advent Revelation 1:7.
Christ coming from Heaven to earth Revelation 19:11-20 to establish the earthly Kingdom of Heaven on earth Revelation 11:15.

3. The 7th seal, silence in Heaven is not about Armageddon.

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The 6th seal is the one and only second coming. The reason why there is silence in heaven is because it is empty at the 7th seal. The saints have returned with Jesus to populate the new heavens and new earth. This is another sign that it is not chronological.

It is a Yom Kippur service who the 7 angels had the prayer of saints and they had to prepare before they sound. Revelation 8:1-6.

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Where do you get this nonsense? Where does it mention Yom Kippur in the text? Nowhere! You force your little dispensational theories into every text that we look at.

4. Revelation 6 is not the Day of the Lord. It is is the Antichrist coming to power Revelation 6:1-8.
Vs 9-11 shows the 1st martyrs of the tribulation and they would have to wait for their brethren who had to be martyred which wasn’t until the end of the tribulation Revelation 14:13 Blessed dead; 15:1-2 those that sang the song of Moses and the Lamb who didn’t take the mark of the beast etc. These two companies went to Heaven for they were in 1st resurrection that will rule and reign in the KoH Revelation 20:4-6.
The 6th seal leads to the wrath of the Lamb vs 16-17.
The wrath of the Lamb are the trumpet judgements which follow the seals Revelation 8:1-12:17.

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It would be helpful if you interpret Scripture with Scripture instead of trying to impose your opinion on the sacred text. To do so, would absolutely negate Pretrib premillennialism. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

According to other Scripture, when does the conflagration occur? When do "the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places"?

This text supports the Amillennial position. This is a climactic destruction at the end. This is the end of the 2nd recap in Revelation. This totally forbids the Pretrib theory.

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction - for those left behind. Anyway, demons are not dissolved in Premil, they saturate its alleged future millennium 1,000 yrs after the second coming.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.”

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

Peter here impresses the absolute certainty of the Lord’s Coming. Jesus had previously told the disciples before His ascension: “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 13:2). And we know, “God is not a man, that he should lie” (Numbers 23:19). Isaiah 46:11 states, “I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.” Daniel 4:35 declares, “he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” But what is more, Christ promised, “if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 13:3). Peter is showing that His Coming is assured!

We see the last of three references to God’s “promise” in verse 13. In it Peter describes the events that accompany Christ’s return as a thief. Whilst this day brings terror to the wicked, he reassures the believer that Christ’s Coming is a day that we should anticipate with hope, as “we, according to his promise (“the promise of his coming”), look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” God’s people “according to His promise” are going to be ushered unto the new perfected earth when He appears – a hope that should bring joy and comfort to the heart of every believer.

The other 3 gospels writers also testified the same.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-30, 35-36: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

Jesus said in Mark 13:24-26, 31-32: “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars (aster) of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-27, 33-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (astron); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The whole description indicates that the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more.The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth!

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

What the Lord was saying is none can abide it!!!

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled (pheugo) away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God … And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”
The Greek word pheugo is “a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish.” Here we see “the earth and the heaven” flee away from the very presence of Christ coming upon His throne; it is clearly His appearing that ushers in the end.

Conclusion

The detailed climatic detail relating to the one and only coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in this text is in stark contrast to your proof text in Revelation 4:1. You have no coming of Christ there. You have no rapture there. You have no resurrection here. All you have is John being caught up in the spirit 2000 years ago. You have no seven-year tribulation in Revelation anywhere. You have no 3rd coming in Revelation 19. You rather have the complete absence of the word "church" between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19. Therefore in the gates your whole thesis and argument that the Church is in heaven.

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. The 7 cycle theory is nothing new and is not right.
Your basis of the great confrontation between the kingdom of God (light) and the kingdom of darkness (Satan) is only one aspect though the overall. Nothing new about that Genesis 3:15; 22-24; Revelation 11:15; 20:10-15; Revelation 21-22.

2. The 7 churches is about Christ coming at the Second advent Revelation 1:7.
Christ coming from Heaven to earth Revelation 19:11-20 to establish the earthly Kingdom of Heaven on earth Revelation 11:15.

3. The 7th seal, silence in Heaven is not about Armageddon.
It is a Yom Kippur service who the 7 angels had the prayer of saints and they had to prepare before they sound. Revelation 8:1-6.

4. Revelation 6 is not the Day of the Lord. It is is the Antichrist coming to power Revelation 6:1-8.
Vs 9-11 shows the 1st martyrs of the tribulation and they would have to wait for their brethren who had to be martyred which wasn’t until the end of the tribulation Revelation 14:13 Blessed dead; 15:1-2 those that sang the song of Moses and the Lamb who didn’t take the mark of the beast etc. These two companies went to Heaven for they were in 1st resurrection that will rule and reign in the KoH Revelation 20:4-6.
The 6th seal leads to the wrath of the Lamb vs 16-17.
The wrath of the Lamb are the trumpet judgements which follow the seals Revelation 8:1-12:17.

5. The 144,000 Jews is literal and they are not the earthly remnant for they are protected through the trumpet judgements Revelation 9:4 and raptured in the days of the 7 the trumpet as the manchild (future) according to Revelation 1:19 and stated as raptured in Revelation 14:1-5.
Revelation 11:15 were voices in Heaven but not being fulfilled until after the 7 vials is over and Armageddon is over Revelation 16:16-21.
11:15 signifies that great confrontation is almost over because in Revelation 12 is the turning point where Satan gives his power,seat, and authority to the Antichrist Revelation 13 for 1260 days 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1-2.
The 7th trumpet is not the last Trump for the pre-trib rapture or the the second advent. Why? Because the 7 vials have to follow after the trumpets.
Plus you would have to under the Jewish feast and blowing of trumpets which I don’t have time to explain.

6. The 7 trumpet days Revelation 8-12 are prophetic trumpet judgements on nature and to hurt and kill men.
Revelation 8-9 were the 6th trumpet judgements
Revelation 10 is a parenthetical because it interrupts the main thought of the trumpet judgements.
The mighty angel is about the kinsman redeemer in the Hebraic perspective.
Verse 7 talks about the mystery of God being finished in the days of the 7th angel which was 11:15-12-17.
They mystery of God is not the 2nd advent for it was known all throughout the Old Testament and New Testament.
In Revelation 12 the accuser of the brethren would fit that bill more Revelation 12:10-13.
There is another scenario that there should be time no longer about what Daniel said though I am not as familiar with. But as I said before time should be no longer has the idea of delay in the time of fulfillment of the mystery of God will be no longer.
Time is eternal so it couldn’t end.
The 2nd advent has to wait for the 7 vials to be fulfilled.

7. Revelation 14 is a parenthetical. Vs 14-16 is symbolic of Armageddon. Vs 17-20 is the second picture of Armageddon. It doesn’t happen till Revelation 16:16.

8. Revelation 11:15-18 happen in Heaven not on earth.
The 1000 years is all about reigning Revelation 20:4 Revelation 5:9-10.
We are being trained right now for the future 1000 year millennial kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12.

9. The 7 vials is the wrath of God and it is reserved for the kingdom beast worshippers Revelation 16:1-2. This is why it is not the same as the wrath of the lamb Revelation 6:16-17.
It does lead to the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:16 which ends the tribulation. The MK follows for it is theocracy of the KoH reign where Christ rules all over the earth Zechariah 14:9 on the Day of the Lord.

10. Revelation 19:11-20 is the Battle of Armageddon.

11. If all Christ does is to come back to shepherd then there is no reason for saints to rule and reign.
Isaiah shows there will be sinners in the MK Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalm 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16:2-2; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:7-10.
Rebels that commit sins of death will be done away with the rod of iron Isaiah 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20.
The rebels in heart that abide by the outward law will be allowed to live and if they don’t get saved they will be a part of the last rebellion Revelation 20:7-9.
They will be destroyed vs 9 resurrected, Acts 24:15 and judged at the GWTJ Revelation 20:12-15.

12. Figurative bonding of Satan? Upon what scripture? That is just your opinion!
That makes the loosing of Satan figurative and the last rebellion figurative and Satan being thrown into the Lake of fire being figurative.
There is no consistency in interpretation with made up allegorical interpretation.
There is a literal bottomless pit and hell etc. Revelation 1:18; 9:1 cp. Revelation 3:7; Isaiah 22:22.
Camp of the saints and the beloved city are the Jewish saints and Jerusalem which belongs to Israel.

13. Your parallels are not overwhelming and your overall cycles are not either.
So you have an opinion and that is your right but not scriptural based in proper context.

14. In conclusion, God has no reason for us to guess at parallels or what looks like it makes sense to one or what it appears in perception.
The seals, trumpets, vials being consecutive is the key to understand that the parenthetical passages basically work in and around the seals, trumpets and vials.
There is a purpose why the parenthetical passages have a reason they are in positions they are in though they may have different times of fulfillment.
For example, Revelation 7 has the 144,000 Jewish evangelists coming onto the scene in the latter part of the 1st half of the tribulation and became a heavenly people in 2nd half of the tribulation in Revelation 14:1-5 as the first fruits of the tribulation in the 7th trumpet days as the manchild.
The great multitude in Revelation 7 covers the whole tribulation martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 15:1-2; 20:4-6.
The wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God being different is why trying to match up the 7the seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7 the vial doesn’t work. Jerry Kelso

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As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

1. First Trumpet/Vial - upon the earth
2. Second Trumpet/Vial - upon the sea
3. Third Trumpet/Vial - upon the rivers and fountains of waters
4. Fourth Trumpet/Vial - upon the sun
5. Fifth Trumpet/Vial - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain
6. Sixth Trumpet/Vial – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates
7. Seventh Trumpet/ Vial - the end!

sovereigngrace said:

As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

1. First Trumpet/Vial - upon the earth
2. Second Trumpet/Vial - upon the sea
3. Third Trumpet/Vial - upon the rivers and fountains of waters
4. Fourth Trumpet/Vial - upon the sun
5. Fifth Trumpet/Vial - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain
6. Sixth Trumpet/Vial – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates
7. Seventh Trumpet/ Vial - the end!

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sovereigngrace,

1. Just like I said you believe your parallels are true because of their similarities. That doesn’t mean it’s scriptural.

2. The trumpets and vials are all on the earth.

3. 1st trumpet was upon nature.
1st vial is a sore upon those who had the mark of the beast etc.
2nd trumpet mountain burning upon a fire of mountain. A 1/3 part of the s a becomes blood.
2nd vial is a bloody sea and every living soul dies.
3rd trumpet is a great star from Heaven called Wormwood falls upon a 1/3 part of the rivers and fountains of waters.
3rd vial bloody rivers and fountains of waters
4th trumpet where the 1/3 part of the sun was smitten, 1/3 part of the moon and stars were darkened and the day shone not for a 1/3 part of it and the night likewise.
4th vial upon the sun and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire and they blasphemed the name of God.
5th trumpet is locusts upon the earth given power as scorpions to torment men for 5 months. They come out of the bottomless pit.
5th vial is on the seat of the beast and his kingdom was full of darkness and they gnaw their tongues in pain and blaspheme God for their pain and sore and they don’t repent.
6th trumpet 1/3 part of men killed and the rest that were not killed by the plagues still didn’t repent of all their evil deeds etc.
6th vial the Great River Euphrates dries up so the kings of the east cross.
Also, the 3 unclean spirits comes out of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. They are the spirits of devils working miracles and help to gather the whole world to the battle of the great day of God almighty.
7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world become Christ we’re mentioned in Heaven not fulfilled.
The rewards of the saints in Heaven happens in the middle of the tribulation. All of chapter 12 is fulfilled in the days of the 7th angel for Satan is chasing Israel into the wilderness, cannot kill the man child who are the 144,000 Jews. The war in Heaven where Satan is and his angels are kicked out of Heaven and resume chasing Israel who is the sun clothed woman who gave birth to the man child . She is preserved in the wilderness and the remnant is scattered.
The dragon has 7 heads that are crowned and 10 horns are not.
6 of those heads were the gentile nations that oppressed Israel in the past. They were Egypt Exodus 1:8-14 Assyria 1 Chronicles 5:26; 2 Chronicles 15:29. Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome Daniel 2&7.
The 7th head is the revised Roman Empire which is also the 10 horns.
Satan gives his power and seat and authority to the Antichrist which has his 10 horns crowned because he must come up among the 10 horns to pluck up 3 of the 10 Daniel 7:8 and not his 7 heads Revelation 13:2 because he wasn’t around for the 7 heads.
This is the same as Revelation 17:10-11 even he is of the 8th. The Antichrist is the little horn of Daniel 7:8.
The 7th vial is Armageddon where the great city is divided into 3 parts and cities of the nation fell and Babylon falls too.
Revelation 19:11 the saints come out of Heaven to go to Armageddon to do battle with the nations of the world and save Israel which is the focal point of Daniel’s last week of the 70 Daniel 9:24-27 and fulfillment of their covenants, gifts and callings 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7, Romans 11:25-29.

4. All you have is similarities which prove nothing.
Trumpet judgements on nature and demons out of the bottomless pit and angels out of Euphrates to afflict men.
Vial judgements are specifically on the beast kingdom worshippers who took the mark etc.
This shows that the paralleling up the 7 trumpets which is the wrath of the Lamb and paralleling the 7 vials which is the wrath of God are different judgements and the vials cannot happen until the 7 trumpet judgements are over with.
Your parallel theory is a theory and not scriptural. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Just like I said you believe your parallels are true because of their similarities. That doesn’t mean it’s scriptural.

2. The trumpets and vials are all on the earth.

3. 1st trumpet was upon nature.
1st vial is a sore upon those who had the mark of the beast etc.
2nd trumpet mountain burning upon a fire of mountain. A 1/3 part of the s a becomes blood.
2nd vial is a bloody sea and every living soul dies.
3rd trumpet is a great star from Heaven called Wormwood falls upon a 1/3 part of the rivers and fountains of waters.
3rd vial bloody rivers and fountains of waters
4th trumpet where the 1/3 part of the sun was smitten, 1/3 part of the moon and stars were darkened and the day shone not for a 1/3 part of it and the night likewise.
4th vial upon the sun and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire and they blasphemed the name of God.

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The only way you can deny the correlation and comparison between the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials is bias theology that requires you to deny the evidence.
As a former Pretribber, and as a former Police Officer, I am convinced that the Amil Idealist view (that of 7 recaps in Revelation) is biblically and evidently compelling. Please compare. By comparing the seven trumpets to the seven vials we see a remarkable detailed, yet symbolic, picture of God’s sovereign dealings with wickedness and the wicked. It relates to the period sandwiched between Christ’s two Advents since he made a show openly of the devil at Calvary. In comparing the two, we view the same events from slightly different camera angles. Although, coming from divergent angles, the parallels are clearly indisputable.

Note what is highlighted in blue, and see the parallel.

FIRST TRUMPET - upon the earth

Revelation 8:7-13 says, “The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

The wrath poured out in the first trumpet is specifically directed “upon the earth” – or upon the land. The character of the wrath is described as “hail and fire mingled with blood” The consequence of this action is that the “third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

FIRST VIAL - upon the earth

Revelation 16:2-9 says, “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.”

The first vial is also directed “upon the earth” however our attention is here brought to the consequence for the inhabitants of the land rather than the land itself. It also proves that the mark of the beast is not some last-of-the-last-days phenomenon; it has been around since Cain.

SECOND TRUMPET - upon the sea

Revelation 8:8-9 says, “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.”

The wrath poured out in the second trumpet comes in the form of what is described as, “as it were a great mountain burning” which is cast into “the sea.” This event causes the third part of the sea to turn to blood. The consequence being that “the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.” Thus we see that a third part of the fish life is destroyed in this incident. Furthermore, the third part of the ships that were in the sea are destroyed.

SECOND VIAL - upon the sea

Revelation 16:3 says, “And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.”

The second vial is also poured out upon the sea again causing it to become as blood. However, instead of addressing the creatures in the sea or even the ships upon the sea, this passage looks at the souls (or human beings) in the sea. We learn that, “every living soul died in the sea.” This does not in any way contradict the parallel with the second trumpet as it is worth noting here that animals or fish life don’t have souls.

The result of this catastrophic judgment is that:-

1. Every living soul died in the sea.
2. The third part of the creatures which were in the sea died
3. The third part of the ships were destroyed

I believe there is a clear distinction between all three.

THE THIRD TRUMPET - upon the rivers and fountains of waters

Revelation 8:10-11 says, “And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters (the nations) became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

The judgment of the third trumpet, in the form of a great star, falls upon “the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” We are again reminded that the source from whence this judgment came is “from heaven.”

Wormwood is a poisonous plant of great bitterness which is alluded to from time to time in Scripture. It is a substance that can be drank and is repeatedly given to men as a means of judgment. It is always employed in Scripture in the context of bitterness, sorrow and calamity.

Lamentations3:15 says, “He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.”

Jeremiah 23:15 says, “Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall.”

It is interesting that when this judgment is poured out in the third trumpet it is directed towards the source of mans drinking water - the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.

Regardless of the symbolic nature of this usage, the consequence of this judgment is that the waters become undrinkable. This passage says that “the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”

THIRD VIAL - upon the rivers and fountains of waters

Revelation 16:4-7 says, “And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters (the nations) say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.”

Whilst the third vial confirms that the judgment is directed towards “the rivers and fountains of waters,” the third trumpet details the fact that this judgment poisons “the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” The third vial, however, explains how this judgment causes the “the rivers and fountains of waters” to become “blood.” The vial and the trumpet here, in agreement, describe how a large part of the world’s drinking water becomes undrinkable.

Finally, the third vial outlines the reason why the waters are turned to blood, explaining, “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.”

FORTH TRUMPET - upon the sun

Revelation 8:12-13 says, “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”

FOURTH VIAL - upon the sun

Revelation 16:8-9 says, “And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.”

The forth vial concentrates solely upon the greater light the sun, with its pre-eminent light, describing how God smites it and employs it “to scorch men” with “great heat.” This results in the damned blaspheming “the name of God”

Significantly, the fourth angel, of the fourth trumpet, looks ahead to the impending final three trumpets and cries, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!” The worst is still yet to come.

jerry kelso said:

5th trumpet is locusts upon the earth given power as scorpions to torment men for 5 months. They come out of the bottomless pit.
5th vial is on the seat of the beast and his kingdom was full of darkness and they gnaw their tongues in pain and blaspheme God for their pain and sore and they don’t repent.
6th trumpet 1/3 part of men killed and the rest that were not killed by the plagues still didn’t repent of all their evil deeds etc.
6th vial the Great River Euphrates dries up so the kings of the east cross.
Also, the 3 unclean spirits comes out of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. They are the spirits of devils working miracles and help to gather the whole world to the battle of the great day of God almighty.
7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world become Christ we’re mentioned in Heaven not fulfilled.
The rewards of the saints in Heaven happens in the middle of the tribulation. All of chapter 12 is fulfilled in the days of the 7th angel for Satan is chasing Israel into the wilderness, cannot kill the man child who are the 144,000 Jews. The war in Heaven where Satan is and his angels are kicked out of Heaven and resume chasing Israel who is the sun clothed woman who gave birth to the man child . She is preserved in the wilderness and the remnant is scattered.
The dragon has 7 heads that are crowned and 10 horns are not.
6 of those heads were the gentile nations that oppressed Israel in the past. They were Egypt Exodus 1:8-14 Assyria 1 Chronicles 5:26; 2 Chronicles 15:29. Babylon, Medo Persia, Greece, and Rome Daniel 2&7.
The 7th head is the revised Roman Empire which is also the 10 horns.
Satan gives his power and seat and authority to the Antichrist which has his 10 horns crowned because he must come up among the 10 horns to pluck up 3 of the 10 Daniel 7:8 and not his 7 heads Revelation 13:2 because he wasn’t around for the 7 heads.
This is the same as Revelation 17:10-11 even he is of the 8th. The Antichrist is the little horn of Daniel 7:8.
The 7th vial is Armageddon where the great city is divided into 3 parts and cities of the nation fell and Babylon falls too.
Revelation 19:11 the saints come out of Heaven to go to Armageddon to do battle with the nations of the world and save Israel which is the focal point of Daniel’s last week of the 70 Daniel 9:24-27 and fulfillment of their covenants, gifts and callings 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7, Romans 11:25-29.

4. All you have is similarities which prove nothing.
Trumpet judgements on nature and demons out of the bottomless pit and angels out of Euphrates to afflict men.
Vial judgements are specifically on the beast kingdom worshippers who took the mark etc.
This shows that the paralleling up the 7 trumpets which is the wrath of the Lamb and paralleling the 7 vials which is the wrath of God are different judgements and the vials cannot happen until the 7 trumpet judgements are over with.
Your parallel theory is a theory and not scriptural. Jerry Kelso

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FIFTH TRUMPET - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain

Revelation 9:1-13 says, “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key (or authority) of the And cast him into the ‘abussou’ (or the abyss). And he opened the ‘abussou’; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the ‘abussou’, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. One woe is past (the ungodly tormented); and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter (the great battle and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ).”

Here we learn the cause of the sun’s blackout immediately prior to the Lord’s return. “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key (or authority) of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.”

FIFTH VIAL - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain

Revelation 16:10-11 says, “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent); and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.”

SIXTH TRUMPET – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates

Revelation 9:14-21: “Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

Here we see modern day armoury described in 1st century language. How else would even the most meticulous of disciples describe a modern day tank or a modern day battlefield. How else could he express to early believers a future scene which was amazing to his eyes.

The casualty list is unprecedented in modern day warfare when the “third part of men” are slain.

SIXTH VIAL – a catastrophic final battle

Revelation 16:12-16 says, “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of [1] the dragon, (Satan) and out of the mouth of [2] the beast, and out of the mouth of [3] the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

The reading finishes with an admonition to the reader, saying, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Whilst it would be possible to surmise that the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) is ‘all those who belong to the devil’, Revelation 20 seems to disprove that possibility as the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) precedes (verse 10) all those who are not found within the book of life (verse 20).

SEVENTH TRUMPET - the end!

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind.

Revelation 11:18-19: “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

SEVENTH VIAL - the end!

Rev 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.

Conclusion

Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end. This is such a stark contrast to the Pretrib position that has no actual support in the wording of Revelation or in the rest of Scripture.

· You have zero proof for a Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1. There is no mention of the Church there. It is rather a record of John getting caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago.
· You have zero proof for a 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19. It actually adds up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.
· You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19 yet you admit there is no mention of the Church in any of those chapters.
· You claim the Church returns from heaven in REvelation 19 at your 3rd coming yet there is no mention of the Church by name in that chapters.

sovereigngrace said:

FIFTH TRUMPET - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain

Revelation 9:1-13 says, “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key (or authority) of the And cast him into the ‘abussou’ (or the abyss). And he opened the ‘abussou’; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the ‘abussou’, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. One woe is past (the ungodly tormented); and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter (the great battle and the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ).”

Here we learn the cause of the sun’s blackout immediately prior to the Lord’s return. “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key (or authority) of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.”

FIFTH VIAL - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain

Revelation 16:10-11 says, “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent); and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.”

SIXTH TRUMPET – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates

Revelation 9:14-21: “Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”

Here we see modern day armoury described in 1st century language. How else would even the most meticulous of disciples describe a modern day tank or a modern day battlefield. How else could he express to early believers a future scene which was amazing to his eyes.

The casualty list is unprecedented in modern day warfare when the “third part of men” are slain.

SIXTH VIAL – a catastrophic final battle

Revelation 16:12-16 says, “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of [1] the dragon, (Satan) and out of the mouth of [2] the beast, and out of the mouth of [3] the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

The reading finishes with an admonition to the reader, saying, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Whilst it would be possible to surmise that the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) is ‘all those who belong to the devil’, Revelation 20 seems to disprove that possibility as the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) precedes (verse 10) all those who are not found within the book of life (verse 20).

SEVENTH TRUMPET - the end!

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind.

Revelation 11:18-19: “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

SEVENTH VIAL - the end!

Rev 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.

Conclusion

Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end. This is such a stark contrast to the Pretrib position that has no actual support in the wording of the sacred text.

· You have zero proof for a Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1. There is no mention of the Church there. It is rather a record of John getting caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago.
· You have zero proof for a 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19. It actually adds up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.
· You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19 yet you admit there is no mention of the Church in any of those chapters.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. So you think that the Antichrist followers in Revelation 9 are the same beast kingdom worshippers? If you do you are wrong.

2. 2 woes are the great battle and the 2nd coming? If you believe that you are wrong.
Revelation 8:13 3 woes will be under the 5-7 trumpets.
The seals, trumpets, and vials are consecutive.
The 1st 2 woes are from the 5th and 6th seal to the mighty angel and to the two witnesses being raptured Revelation 11:14. This is why the 6th seal isn’t the end.
You can generalize and make out like the angels from the Euphrates and the Euphrates being dried up and the 200,000,000 army being the kings of the east All you want but it doesn’t gel with scripture.
The 3rd woe is all of the days of the 7th angels is Revelation 11:15-12:17 and that is the middle of the tribulation where Satan chases the Israel into the wilderness and leads into the transition with the Antichrist Revelation 13.

4. All you can do is state your belief and that is why you can’t prove my position wrong.
You think that if you put down scripture and give your position is going to change everything then you are wrong and you are wasting yours and my time.
You can make a statement like it holds water when it doesn’t because you can’t really tell me why my position and the scriptures I have given are wrong.
Trust me you wouldn’t make it on a debate team.
I know your position and you have to give opinion and conjecture and allegorical interpretations which lead to no consistency.
You can believe what you like and you can quote scripture and what you believe it says but if you can’t give a proper rebuttal then all you are doing is disagreeing.
If I thought you had a slight valid point I would take it into consideration, but that is not the case.
Let me ask you something? What is your motive in thinking that Dispensationalism is of the devil and those who teach or believe it are false prophets?
We don’t think you are right in your position just as much as you don’t think we are right.
I am not going to send people with your position to hell over it or say there theology has no truth at all.
How one believes eschatology can determine one’s overall interpretation of scripture. That can be a hinderance in many ways but to go to extreme that most post people have appears to be an extreme and at times a wreck less accusatory demeanor.
So that is what I am wondering is what your true motive is? Please clarify. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. So you think that the Antichrist followers in Revelation 9 are the same beast kingdom worshippers? If you do you are wrong.

Click to expand...

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The 1st 2 woes are from the 5th and 6th seal to the mighty angel

Click to expand...

Your reasoning does not add up. The 3 woes relate to seven trumpets (Ch 8-11 - Recap 3). You find the references in Revelation 8:13, 9:12 and 11:14-19. The seven seals relate to Revelation 6-8:1 (Recap 2).

This is why the 6th seal isn’t the end.

Click to expand...

My above comments should remove your confusion.

You can generalize and make out like the angels from the Euphrates and the Euphrates being dried up and the 200,000,000 army being the kings of the east All you want but it doesn’t gel with scripture.

The 3rd woe is all of the days of the 7th angels is Revelation 11:15-12:17 and that is the middle of the tribulation where Satan chases the Israel into the wilderness and leads into the transition with the Antichrist Revelation 13.

Click to expand...

The 3rd Woe is the day of God's wrath – at the last trumpet. That is when all the wicked are destroyed.

4. All you can do is state your belief and that is why you can’t prove my position wrong.

Click to expand...

That is rich coming from someone who holds to an end-time doctrine that doesn't have one single proof text in Scripture. Sorry, I'm not going to take lectures from someone like that. I'm giving you good hard solid evidence. I'm also corroborating it.

You think that if you put down scripture and give your position is going to change everything then you are wrong and you are wasting yours and my time.

You can make a statement like it holds water when it doesn’t because you can’t really tell me why my position and the scriptures I have given are wrong.

Trust me you wouldn’t make it on a debate team.

Click to expand...

You're starting to get infantile and petty now! That is always a sign that someone has lost the debate. I've seen many people change from this error over the years, as a Christian, a writer and a Pastor. I have been involved in various debate teams online since 2000 that has saw much fruit.

I know your position and you have to give opinion and conjecture and allegorical interpretations which lead to no consistency.

You can believe what you like and you can quote scripture and what you believe it says but if you can’t give a proper rebuttal then all you are doing is disagreeing.

If I thought you had a slight valid point I would take it into consideration, but that is not the case.

Click to expand...

You have nothing to rebut. Zero! You cannot even prove the basics. You can't even provide any evidence of the following:

• Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1?
• Where is your 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19?
• You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19. Can you furnish me with any mention of the Church there?
• Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation 19?

Let me ask you something? What is your motive in thinking that Dispensationalism is of the devil and those who teach or believe it are false prophets?

Click to expand...

When did i say that?

We don’t think you are right in your position just as much as you don’t think we are right.
I am not going to send people with your position to hell over it or say there theology has no truth at all.
How one believes eschatology can determine one’s overall interpretation of scripture. That can be a hinderance in many ways but to go to extreme that most post people have appears to be an extreme and at times a wreck less accusatory demeanor.
So that is what I am wondering is what your true motive is?

Click to expand...

I love God's truth, and I reject unscriptural theology. Like many Christians, I bought into Pretrib for years until i saw the error of it, and embraced the truth.

sovereigngrace said:

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the Beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Also, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.



Your reasoning does not add up. The 3 woes relate to seven trumpets (Ch 8-11 - Recap 3). You find the references in Revelation 8:13, 9:12 and 11:14-19. The seven seals relate to Revelation 6-8:1 (Recap 2).



My above comments should remove your confusion.



The 3rd Woe is the day of God's wrath – at the last trumpet. That is when all the wicked are destroyed.



That is rich coming from someone who holds to an end-time doctrine that doesn't have one single proof text in Scripture. Sorry, I'm not gonna take lectures from someone like that. I'm giving you good hard solid evidence. I'm also corroborating it.



You're starting to get infantile now! That is always a sign that someone has lost the debate. I've seen many people change from this error over the years, as a Christian, a writer and a Pastor. I have been involved in various debate teams online since 2000 that has saw much fruit.



You have nothing to rebut. Zero! You cannot even prove the basics. You don't have

• Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1?
• Where is your 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19?
• You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19. Can you furnish me with any mention of the Church there?
• Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation 19?

When did i say that?



I love God's truth, and I reject unscriptural theology.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. Those terms are for the Antichrist but the Antichrist followers in the trumpets are different than the ones in the vials.
The ones in the trumpet judgements are under the wrath of the Lamb and those under the vials are under the wrath of God for they have taken the mark etc which is not until the 2nd half of the tribulation Revelation 13 is when this system is set up.
The wrath of the Lamb is in the 1st half of the tribulation before the beast has come to power and before his system is set up. You cannot prove this wrong by any scripture. Your time factor is off and cannot be substantiated or corroborated with scripture.
This means your whole scenario cannot be right.
Can you not understand this?
This is why your supposed good solid evidence is no evidence at all.
That is a hard core scriptural fact and a hard pill for you to swallow but the sooner you face the fact you might start to make progress.

Just curious what church do you pastor?

2. You say I have zero evidence which is not true. I have give you ample amount of evidence. You don’t like because you can’t outright refute it. You try to cast a shadow a doubt but it disappears in the light of biblical truth.
As I said your time factor is not right and that is why your whole scenarios are wrong.
Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Those terms are for the Antichrist but the Antichrist followers in the trumpets are different than the ones in the vials.
The ones in the trumpet judgements are under the wrath of the Lamb and those under the vials are under the wrath of God for they have taken the mark etc which is not until the 2nd half of the tribulation Revelation 13 is when this system is set up.
The wrath of the Lamb is in the 1st half of the tribulation before the beast has come to power and before his system is set up. You cannot prove this wrong by any scripture. Your time factor is off and cannot be substantiated or corroborated with scripture.
This means your whole scenario cannot be right.
Can you not understand this?
This is why your supposed good solid evidence is no evidence at all.
That is a hard core scriptural fact and a hard pill for you to swallow but the sooner you face the fact you might start to make progress.

Click to expand...

If God does not pour out His wrath upon the righteous, as Pretrib’s emphasize, and if that in turn is a reason to believe in a Pretrib rapture, and if there is the widespread conversion of tribulation saints and Israel during a supposed future seven-year tribulation after the coming of Christ, then (according to Pretrib) God does indeed pour out His wrath upon the righteous?

This is just another lame argument that Pretribbers use to support an extra-biblical doctrine. In fact, as is normal, they hang on their own gallows. For example:

(1) The tribulation = the wrath of God.
(2) Since the tribulation saints go through the tribulation that means they go through the wrath of God.
(3) There is therefore no protection availed to the tribulation saints. After all, Pretribbers will not accept that reality for the Postrib tribulation saints, they cannot (with any credibility) claim such for their tribulation saints. That would, of course, be hypocritical.

For anyone to accept the Pretrib position would cause them to conclude that God is changing the way He deals with His children. For the first time in history, He would pour out His wrath on the righteous (to whatever degree). I believe biblically this is impossible. It is against the nature and working of God throughout the Word to do such. Moreover, it against the consistent teaching of Scripture. The Bible teaches that the wrath of God is continually upon the wicked and upon wickedness, not the righteous. The righteous are kept from that judgment.

Just curious what church do you pastor?

Click to expand...

Nondenominational church Nebraska.

2. You say I have zero evidence which is not true. I have give you ample amount of evidence. You don’t like because you can’t outright refute it. You try to cast a shadow a doubt but it disappears in the light of biblical truth.
As I said your time factor is not right and that is why your whole scenarios are wrong.
Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

• 
  1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1?
  2. Where is your 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19?
  3. You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19. Can you furnish me with any mention of the Church there?
  4. Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation 19?
  5. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
  6. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
  7. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
  8. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
  9. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
  10. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
  11. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
  12. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
  13. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
  14. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?
  15. Where is your 7 years trib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9?
  

sovereigngrace said:

If God does not pour out His wrath upon the righteous, as Pretrib’s emphasize, and if that in turn is a reason to believe in a Pretrib rapture, and if there is the widespread conversion of tribulation saints and Israel during a supposed future seven-year tribulation after the coming of Christ, then (according to Pretrib) God does indeed pour out His wrath upon the righteous?

This is just another lame argument that Pretribbers use to support an extra-biblical doctrine. In fact, as is normal, they hang on their own gallows. For example:

(1) The tribulation = the wrath of God.
(2) Since the tribulation saints go through the tribulation that means they go through the wrath of God.
(3) There is therefore no protection availed to the tribulation saints. After all, Pretribbers will not accept that reality for the Postrib tribulation saints, they cannot (with any credibility) claim such for their tribulation saints. That would, of course, be hypocritical.

For anyone to accept the Pretrib position would cause them to conclude that God is changing the way He deals with His children. For the first time in history, He would pour out His wrath on the righteous (to whatever degree). I believe biblically this is impossible. It is against the nature and working of God throughout the Word to do such. Moreover, it against the consistent teaching of Scripture. The Bible teaches that the wrath of God is continually upon the wicked and upon wickedness, not the righteous. The righteous are kept from that judgment.



Nondenominational church Nebraska.

• 
  1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1?
  2. Where is your 7 years trib between Revelation 4-19?
  3. You claim the Church is in heaven between Revelation 4-19. Can you furnish me with any mention of the Church there?
  4. Where is your 3rd coming in Revelation 19?
  5. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
  6. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
  7. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
  8. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
  9. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
  10. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
  11. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
  12. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
  13. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
  14. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?
  15. Where is your 7 years trib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9?

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer we shall reign. We are being trained for rulership and reigning right now. Through our trials and through spiritual warfare by prayer.

2. Pretribbers are accused of just want to escape the great tribulation. Well, yes it will be the worst time in history that God will have to shorten it cause the very elect Matthew 24:21.

3. However, Christians are martyred everyday in this world. Christians are persecuted in America in many ways .
Many persecuted christians in other countries finally got free and came to America and said the persecution of evil through temptations like sex etc. we’re worse than when they were in Jail for their faith in their own country.

4. Enoch is a type of rapture for he was translated before the flood because he walked in faith with God.
1 Corinthians 5:9; For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

5. You can’t produce one scripture that the present true church of today has to go through the 7 year tribulation which is about Israel being purged to receive their gifts and callings to rule and reign on earth in the kingdom Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11:25-29.
There is no scripture that says the church has to be purged by the 7 year tribulation to be accounted worthy to rule and reign in the kingdom of Heaven on earth. You do not understand the big picture and that is why you can’t understand the details.
The burden of proof is on you because you started this thread with the accusation that Dispensational belief is flawed. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

5. You can’t produce one scripture that the present true church of today has to go through the 7 year tribulation which is about Israel being purged to receive their gifts and callings to rule and reign on earth in the kingdom Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11:25-29.

There is no scripture that says the church has to be purged by the 7 year tribulation to be accounted worthy to rule and reign in the kingdom of Heaven on earth. You do not understand the big picture and that is why you can’t understand the details.
The burden of proof is on you because you started this thread with the accusation that Dispensational belief is flawed.

Click to expand...

First of all, I did not start this thread. It would help if you actually checked out your information before you throwing false accusations.

Secondly, how can I prove something I don't believe in? I don't believe in a seven-year tribulation. It is nowhere in scripture. I've repeatedly asked you to show me where it is and you have been on able to furnish us with it.

Thirdly, do you even read my posts? You seem to just wing it!

Fourthly, when are you going to address all a relevant questions that you have started start continually on this thread?

I've rebutted these points in detail in #594, #600 and #631, and others. Once again, these are some of the many of detailed posts you have carefully sidestepped. Clearly you have to for Pretrib to fit!

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. 2 Timothy 2:12 if we suffer we shall reign. We are being trained for rulership and reigning right now. Through our trials and through spiritual warfare by prayer.

2. Pretribbers are accused of just want to escape the great tribulation. Well, yes it will be the worst time in history that God will have to shorten it cause the very elect Matthew 24:21.

3. However, Christians are martyred everyday in this world. Christians are persecuted in America in many ways .
Many persecuted christians in other countries finally got free and came to America and said the persecution of evil through temptations like sex etc. we’re worse than when they were in Jail for their faith in their own country.

4. Enoch is a type of rapture for he was translated before the flood because he walked in faith with God.
1 Corinthians 5:9; For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

5. You can’t produce one scripture that the present true church of today has to go through the 7 year tribulation which is about Israel being purged to receive their gifts and callings to rule and reign on earth in the kingdom Daniel 9:24-27; Romans 11:25-29.
There is no scripture that says the church has to be purged by the 7 year tribulation to be accounted worthy to rule and reign in the kingdom of Heaven on earth. You do not understand the big picture and that is why you can’t understand the details.
The burden of proof is on you because you started this thread with the accusation that Dispensational belief is flawed. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

I don't know why you keep quoting my posts, because you never address them. Once again, you totally avoided every point I made in my previous post. You just ended up going off on one of your irrelevant rabbit chases.

sovereigngrace said:

First of all, I did not start this thread. It would help if you actually checked out your information before you throwing false accusations.

Secondly, how can I prove something I don't believe in? I don't believe in a seven-year tribulation. It is nowhere in scripture. I've repeatedly asked you to show me where it is and you have been on able to furnish us with it.

Thirdly, do you even read my posts? You seem to just wing it!

Fourthly, when are you going to address all a relevant questions that you have started start continually on this thread?

I've rebutted these points in detail in #594, #600 and #631, and others. Once again, these are some of the many of detailed posts you have carefully sidestepped. Clearly you have to for Pretrib to fit!

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. Sorry honest mistake. Lol!

2. I told you it was in Daniel 9:27 for the Antichrist makes a covenant for one week. That week is 7 years, the last of Daniel’s 70 weeks.
It concerns Israel’s restoration to rule and reign in the earthly kingdom 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Romans 11:29; 25-29.

3. I read your posts and I know your position. I have successfully rebutted your position because your time factor is wrong and that means your whole scenario falls flat on its face and is irrelevant. You can try to debunk it if you’d like.
I will look at your specific posts later. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

2. I told you it was in Daniel 9:27 for the Antichrist makes a covenant for one week. That week is 7 years, the last of Daniel’s 70

Click to expand...

The only way you are able to keep making these statements is if you ignore the obvious, the text and my questions. This is getting a bit frustrating. But I will persist because it shows the poverty of Pretrib. Please address these basic questions:

Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

i’m just wondering if you know how to exegete a passage?

sovereigngrace said:

The only way you are able to keep making these statements is if you ignore the obvious, the text and my questions. This is getting a bit frustrating. But I will persist because it shows the poverty of Pretrib. Please address these basic questions:

Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

i’m just wondering if you know how to exegete a passage?

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. Look at post 735 and you will find I answered your statement saying there was no 7 Year tribulation. I gave you scripture for it and who it was for and you are going to tell me I didn’t?
If you can’t understand that then you lack comprehension or you don’t wanna be honest. Which is it?

1. I am at work so I don’t have time to answer this post.
But if you’re a preacher you probably have time to address mine in #735.
Tell me what you think I said and why you think it is wrong by scriptural context instead of copping out by saying I have zero evidence. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Sorry honest mistake. Lol!

2. I told you it was in Daniel 9:27 for the Antichrist makes a covenant for one week. That week is 7 years, the last of Daniel’s 70 weeks.
It concerns Israel’s restoration to rule and reign in the earthly kingdom 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Romans 11:29; 25-29.

3. I read your posts and I know your position. I have successfully rebutted your position because your time factor is wrong and that means your whole scenario falls flat on its face and is irrelevant. You can try to debunk it if you’d like.
I will look at your specific posts later. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

I wish you would actually quote Scripture, instead of presenting your evasive opinion, and fly-by quotes.

Daniel 9:24-26 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

Antichrist is NOT in Daniel 9. Where is he mentioned? It is Christ the Messiah (the anointed one) who is the focus. This is telling us that Messiah would take the believers place and pay the penalty of sin which would result in sin offerings would come to an end 2000 years ago which would render the temple in Jerusalem obsolete.

What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

I have lost count how many times I have asked you to answer some basic questions and you repeatedly avoid. Where is your rapture, mention of a tribulation or 7 years-trib, or 3rd coming in Daniel 9?

Because of Israel's rebellion, the Roman soldiers destroyed the city and the temple. This was a result of their rejection of Christ.

sovereigngrace said:

I wish you would actually quote Scripture, instead of presenting your evasive opinion, and fly-by quotes.

Daniel 9:24-26 predicts, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

Antichrist is NOT in Daniel 9. Where is he mentioned? It is Christ the Messiah (the anointed one) who is the focus. This is telling us that Messiah would take the believers place and pay the penalty of sin which would result in sin offerings would come to an end 2000 years ago which would render the temple in Jerusalem obsolete.

What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

I have lost count how many times I have asked you to answer some basic questions and you repeatedly avoid. Where is your rapture, mention of a tribulation or 7 years-trib, or 3rd coming in Daniel 9?

Because of Israel's rebellion, the Roman soldiers destroyed the city and the temple. This was a result of their rejection of Christ.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. First of all, let me be honest, I don’t like the inference that I don’t quote scripture because that is an outright lie.
As far as evasive opinion you have made more than enough to build the Great Wall Of China.

2. If you know the pre-Trib position so well you ought to be able to understand the scriptures I gave for the 7 year covenant made by the Antichrist according to Daniels 70 weeks.
You also ought to know that Daniel 9:24 is about restoration of Israel.
Are you going to tell me you don’t know how pre-tribbers explain the 70 weeks and the Antichrist 7 weeks?
That was what you were wanting to know. I posted in # 735 the basic reason. I did not explain Daniels’s 70 weeks in detail.
Do you understand these simple questions?
If you really don’t know then just say you don’t know then I’ll answer your questions. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. First of all, let me be honest, I don’t like the inference that I don’t quote scripture because that is an outright lie.
As far as evasive opinion you have made more than enough to build the Great Wall Of China.

2. If you know the pre-Trib position so well you ought to be able to understand the scriptures I gave for the 7 year covenant made by the Antichrist according to Daniels 70 weeks.
You also ought to know that Daniel 9:24 is about restoration of Israel.
Are you going to tell me you don’t know how pre-tribbers explain the 70 weeks and the Antichrist 7 weeks?
That was what you were wanting to know. I posted in # 735 the basic reason. I did not explain Daniels’s 70 weeks in detail.
Do you understand these simple questions?
If you really don’t know then just say you don’t know then I’ll answer your questions. Jerry Kelso

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You don't quote the actual Scripture text, so that others can judge whether the text and your opinion align. I believe to do so would expose the error of Pretrib. You do what Jack Van Imp does, you present a barrage of Scripture references (BIG difference!!!) that have absolutely nothing to do with what you are claiming.

The reason why Pretrib is collapsing everywhere is because it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine that has zero proof-texts. When challenged it cannot stand. This thread is a classic case-in-point. If I was a Pretribber watching on I would be questioning the theory - BIG time.

Now, if you are confident of what you believe can you please address the following?

What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

sovereigngrace said:

You don't quote Scripture! To do so would expose the error of Pretrib. You do what Jack Van Imp does, you present references that have absolutely nothing to do with what you are claiming. The reason why Pretrib is collapsing everywhere is because it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine that has zero proof-texts. Now, if you are confident of what you believe can you please address the following?

What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6.

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sovereigngrace,

1. You are not being forthright but that is alright I forgive you anyway.

2. Jack Van Impe reconciles scriptures together properly for the most part.

3. Pre-trib is not collapsing even though there are some who switch over to post-trib by some students who went to Dallas Theological Seminary. From what I recall they were not kind.
There are some post who switch over to pre-trib.
It is not man made because we back up by scripture and scriptural context.
I have no problem addressing it.

4. All 6 are about the future event of the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7; Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
The day that is great is the Day of the Lord which is the 2nd advent. Daniel 12:1; Zechariah 14:1-9; Matthew 24:21; Revelation 1:7; 16:16.

5. It is also about the restoration of Israel Ezekiel 37:16-18; Matthew 23:39; Romans 11:25-29.

6. It is about fulfilling their covenants of Abraham Genesis 12:1-3 make a great nation Genesis 15:18-21 concerning the land. This is why Jesus said Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth Matthew 5:5.

7. The throne of David 2 Samuel 7:13-16 the throne and kingdom and house forever. God will establish it.
1 Chronicles 28:1-7 David’s kingdom forever that would be built by Solomon because David was a man of war.
Luke 1:32-33 Jesus and the Davidic connection v 67-71and the Abrahamic oath 72-80. The restoration didn’t happen because Israel rejected Christ Matthew 23:37:39.

8. Daniel 9:24; the 70 weeks are 70 sevens which are 490 years. It was about years not days Daniel 9:2.
The last week of Daniel 9:27 is divided into 2 parts of 3.5 years (Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2, 3; 12:5; 14; 13:5).
They are marked off or determined from all others because they concern thy people (Israel) and thy Holy City (Jerusalem) for which Daniel was praying ( Daniel 6:10; 9:1-23).
This is why the 6 points you are asking about are not historical but future.

9. To finish the transgression; Hebrew pasha; to revolt, rebel or sin against lawful authority and translated transgression (Psalms 51:13; Isaiah 43:27; etc. Galatians 3:17-25; the law was added because of transgressions until the seed should come and they rejected the Messiah but will receive him at the 2nd coming and turn ungodliness from Jacob and cause s nation to be born at once ( Romans 11:25-29; Isaiah 66:7-10; Ezekiel 36:24-30)

10. To make an end to sins; This will not happen till the 2nd coming Ezekiel 36:24-30; 37:24-27; 43:7; Zechariah 14:1-21.

11. To make reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity; Hebrew Avon means perverseness, to be crooked or wrung out of course ( 1 Samuel 20:30; 2 Samuel 19:19; Job 33:37.
Atonement was made at the cross for the whole world John 3:16 but not Israel as a nation and will not till Christ returns (Zechariah 13:1-7; Romans 11:25-29).

12. To bring in everlasting righteousness; when the first 3 are finished, then everlasting righteousness will be ushered in ( Isaiah 9:6-7; 12:1-6; Daniel 7:13,14,18,27; Matthew 25:31-46; Ezekiel 43:7;Romans 11:25-29).

13. To seal up the vision and prophecy to make an end of prophecies by the fulfillment of those concerning Israel and Jerusalem.
Also the word prophecy should be translated prophet elsewhere. For there will be no need of inspired men to rebuke Israel in a way to lead them into the way of righteousness for all shall know the Lord from the least unto the greatest (Jeremiah 31:31-40; Isaiah 11:9.

14. To anoint the most holy; This refers to the cleansing of the holy of holies, the temple, and the city of Jerusalem from the abomination of desolation and the sacrilege of Gentiles and to the establishment and anointing of the Millennial temple of Ezekiel 40-43; Zechariah 6:12,13.
The most Holy is never used of a person, nor would the Jews ever associate this term with their Messiah, who is distinguished from this term in this passage by the title “Messiah”.

15. This will be accomplished when their nation will almost be wiped out Matthew 24:14-21,22.
The Jewish elect will be gathered together Matthew 24:31.
Revelation 12:14-17 which includes the Jewish remnant Revelation 11:13.
It will be accomplished according to the covenants 2 Samuel 13:16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7, and Romans’ 11:25-29.
Israel is blinded till the fullness of the gentiles be come in.
All of Israel will be saved for the deliver of Mt. Sion shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
God’s covenant will take away Israel’s sins.
Concerning the gospel they are enemies of the present day church but beloved for the fathers sake which is the gifts and callings that are without repentance.
These are the covenants of Abraham and David which are unconditional conditioned by obedience of the whole nation. This will happen when Sion the delivers comes Romans 11:26 who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who comes from Heaven with the Heavenly saints to Armageddon to save Israel and
destroy the armies of the world Revelation 19:11-20 and establish the millennial kingdom Revelation 20.
The Daniel’s 70 weeks, time of Jacob’s trouble and the KoH reign and restoration of Israel at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4, 9;6-7, 66:7-10 Ezekiel 37:16-28, Romans 11:25-29 etc. is all about Israel not the church of today. Jerry Kelso