The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 25, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
His sheep continue to follow him. They will perish if they stop following him.

Please cite any verse that says so. There are NO verses that even suggest such a thing.

John 10:28 is too clear to be confused. Jesus' sheep shall never perish.

Why not? Because He said those He gives eternal life (His sheep) shall never perish.

If you believe that any action on your part can lead to perishing, then you CANNOT be one of Jesus's sheep.

Because He said His sheep shall never perish.

Are you one of His sheep?

FreeGrace2 · Dec 25, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
So it is your position then that people who have no fellowship with Christ, because they are sinning, are going to be judged as righteous on the judgement day?

Yep. And I'll tell you why. When a person places their faith alone in Christ alone for salvation alone, they have Christ's imputed righteousness. And we STAY saved on that basis alone. Period.

That's why Jesus could say that those He gives etenral life shall never perish.

It's NEVER about the believer's lifestyle or behavior. It's about the FACT that Christ's righteousness is credited to the one who believes in Him.

Why is that? Because is by GRACE through FAITH, and NOT of works. Eph 2:8,9

2 Pet 1:1 -
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

James 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

Gal 3:6 - So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Gal 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” {this verse destroys the argument of those who espouse OSNAS (once saved, not always saved) doctrine.}

Salvation is by grace, not by the law, or works, or deeds, or lifestyle, or behavior.

Grace alone.

redleghunter · Dec 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
A person needs to first be saved by God's grace through faith which is a process of salvation that is without works or the deeds of the Law because it is an act of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). But afterwards, we need to walk in newness of life. We need to walk with GOD and abide in Him to have continued life. This will include work because we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

What happens to us when we are Justified by Faith alone?

Does God give us the Holy Spirit?
Does God give us the Holy Spirit with a condition?
Do you disagree with the notion each believer washed in the Blood of Christ has the indwelling Holy Spirit?

I would like to understand your view of the ministry of the Holy Spirit to those saved by Grace through faith.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

My recent post did not appear correctly. I fixed post #239 so that it is readable.

brinny · Dec 25, 2019

Al Touthentop said: ↑
The intent of those passages was not to make them afraid, it was to inform them that they had to keep in the faith.

Carl Emerson said:
and if they didn't ?

That is sin, is it not?

AKA backsliding, or to take it even further, apostasy.

Isn't that exactly what "not REMAINING in the faith" IS?

brinny · Dec 25, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Yep. And I'll tell you why. When a person places their faith alone in Christ alone for salvation alone, they have Christ's imputed righteousness. And we STAY saved on that basis alone. Period.

That's why Jesus could say that those He gives etenral life shall never perish.

It's NEVER about the believer's lifestyle or behavior. It's about the FACT that Christ's righteousness is credited to the one who believes in Him.

Why is that? Because is by GRACE through FAITH, and NOT of works. Eph 2:8,9

2 Pet 1:1 -
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

James 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

Gal 3:6 - So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Gal 2:21 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” {this verse destroys the argument of those who espouse OSNAS (once saved, not always saved) doctrine.}

Salvation is by grace, not by the law, or works, or deeds, or lifestyle, or behavior.

Grace alone.

Those who LOVE their sin and thus remain in that sin are indicating a heart condition that God abhors.

This comes to mind:

jimmyjimmy · Dec 25, 2019

Conditional Salvation: Jesus saves, but only if you obey the Law.

brinny · Dec 25, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
What do you think God means then when he says through Jeremiah "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will never turn away from Me."

i'm curious...what do you think that verse means?

In addition, have you lined it up with the rest of the verses in His Word that speak of the "fear of the Lord"?

In particular, where it is written that is delightful to fear the Lord, and that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, for instance?

Gr8Grace · Dec 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Let's stick to Scripture, and not make it personal here.
What does verse 27 say?

Let's read it.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
(John 10:27).

So the sheep FOLLOW Jesus.
This means that they obey Jesus.

What else does verse 27 says?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
(John 10:27).

1 John 2:3 essentially says that the way we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord is if we find that we are keeping His commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).

1 Corinthians 8:3 says,
"But if any man love God, the same is known of him."

Jesus says,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." (John 15:10).

So taking this all into account, we have to keep His commandments as a part of the kind of sheep that will never perish or be snatched out of his hand. The command keeping sheep will never be snatched out of his hand and will never perish. Jesus is not talking about sheep who break his commandments and or who are lazy and do not follow Him.

So you have to keep His commandments as a part of life.
Jesus even says this in Matthew 19:17-19, and implies this by agreeing the lawyer that we have to love God, and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

Very true. But this is the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus based on verse 27.
This is the sheep who Jesus knows. We can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). Jesus is not talking about any kind of sheep here.

Context. Jesus is speaking in perspective to the sheep in hindsight of the kind of life that they lived. Jesus is referring to those sheep who lived faithfully in this life by truly following or obeying Him.

How does one become a sheep? That is the question. I believe verse 27 helps to describe the kind of sheep that Jesus says will never perish and will never be snatched out of his hand. These are the sheep who FOLLOW Him, and who know Him by keeping His commandments.

Are you one of His sheep? Don't you find it sad that you can't scream it from the rooftops?

You can't "YES OR NO" that question .........because you have a lot of false doctrines to cover.

Drop all that religion and legalism and DROP to your knees.......Become one of His sheep and live in HIS life. It really is easy, even with life's hardballs.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 25, 2019

brinny said:
Those who LOVE their sin and thus remain in that sin are indicating a heart condition that God abhors.

This comes to mind:

Are you actually arguing against what Jesus said in John 10:28? That recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

And why quote the Calvinist Ryle if your argument is that lifestyle can result in loss of salvation, which it seems to me that you are?

btw, I am not a Calvinist, nor an Arminian. Too many people try to pigeonhole others into only one camp or the other. I'm in neither camp.

Gr8Grace · Dec 25, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you actually arguing against what Jesus said in John 10:28? That recipients of eternal life shall never perish?

And why quote the Calvinist Ryle if your argument is that lifestyle can result in loss of salvation, which it seems to me that you are?

btw, I am not a Calvinist, nor an Arminian. Too many people try to pigeonhole others into only one camp or the other. I'm in neither camp.

It is why people can't hear Grace. Everybody is pigeonholed into the RELIGIONS that are popular today.

I am with you...calvinisim sucks, arminianism sucks. And every religion teaches/preaches some form of this false doctrine.

What is attacked and shut down today?....... His FREEGRACE.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

jimmyjimmy said:
Conditional Salvation: Jesus saves, but only if you obey the Law.

Not the 613 Laws of Moses (as a package deal) which Paul spoke against when it came to salvation. For Paul says if we seek to be justified by the Law, we have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). We cannot be justified by the whole of the Law of Moses. For it is written,

"...from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."
(Acts of the Apostles 13:39) (NKJV).

However, that does not mean there is no more Law of any kind, though. There is New Covenant Law (or New Testament Commands). For we are justified by keeping the commandment or Law that tells us to believe on Jesus (1 John 3:23). We are justified by the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2). We are justified by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). For keeping the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the "Law of Sin and Death" (i.e. The Law of Sin and Death = The 613 Laws of Moses). We are justified by the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25). For the Old Law was not a law of liberty unlike New Covenant Law.

This is why Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
Unfortunately, most do not believe this verse.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Are you one of His sheep? Don't you find it sad that you can't scream it from the rooftops?

You can't "YES OR NO" that question .........because you have a lot of false doctrines to cover.

Drop all that religion and legalism and DROP to your knees.......Become one of His sheep and live in HIS life. It really is easy, even with life's hardballs.

You are not addressing verse 27. It says that His sheep FOLLOW Him, and they know Him. This means they are the kind of sheep that keep His commandments. This is not the 613 laws of Moses, but this is the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
It is why people can't hear Grace. Everybody is pigeonholed into the RELIGIONS that are popular today.

I am with you...calvinisim sucks, arminianism sucks. And every religion teaches/preaches some form of this false doctrine.

What is attacked and shut down today?....... His FREEGRACE.

Let's not kid each other here. Most churches today preach free grace. They do not preach the narrow way and that FEW be there that find it. Most today preach about how you can sin and still be saved because of a belief alone on Jesus.

Both Calvinism and many Non-Calvinistic churches that believe in Eternal Security or Belief Alone-ism teach that we are saved only by God's grace through a belief in Jesus and nothing else. I know this because this is what I have argued against for many years now. Even Lordship Salvation within certain branches of Calvinism is a trojan horse. It appears to be for holiness or holy living when it really is not about that at all. MacArthur popularized Lordship Salvation (coincidentally after a suicide took place in his church), but even MacArthur himself admits that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

This is morally wrong.
God does not agree with our sin so as to pay the price for our future rebellion against Him. God would have to agree with evil if such were the case. MacArthur is teaching that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. Suicide is self murder. Yet, 1 John 3:15 says that whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

redleghunter said:
What happens to us when we are Justified by Faith alone?

James 2:24 says the exact opposite of your statement here, my friend.

James 2:24 plainly says,

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
(James 2:24) (NASB).

There is a thread I created recently. It is about how we must put the Word of God (Scripture) on the inside of us.

You have to constantly put the Word of God on the inside of you.

This is an important topic of study because if we don't put the Word on the inside of us (and truly believe His Word plainly), we can end up speaking against God's Word in certain places and not even believe certain parts of His Word because of outside ideas that we have been taught to us by a church or Christian article online, or by a Christian book.

You said:
Does God give us the Holy Spirit?

God the Father gives the believer in Jesus Christ the Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) after they believe in Jesus as their Savior (John 7:39), and they repent (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord).

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts of the Apostles 2:38).

In the early church, this usually involved water baptism but it does not always have to be the case for the believer today in order for them to receive the Spirit from God the Father.

Note: The disciples were given the Spirit by Jesus breathing the Spirit upon them (John 20:22). Jesus said that He had living water for the woman at the well (John 4:14-16); We later learn that this living water is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39). So Jesus also can give the Holy Spirit in addition to God the Father, too.

You said:
Does God give us the Holy Spirit with a condition?

Yes. The Holy Spirit is given to all those who obey Him.

"And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
(Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

You said:
Do you disagree with the notion each believer washed in the Blood of Christ has the indwelling Holy Spirit?

There are two conditions for having the blood of Jesus applied to a person's life.

Condition #1. A person must believe in Jesus and that His shed blood cleanses them from their past sin.

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins..." (Romans 3:25).

Condition #2. A person must then "walk in the light" as He (Christ) is in the light (i.e. the light of God the Father) so that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7) (NKJV).

The Bible teaches that a person can resist God (Which doesn't make sense in Calvinism).

The Holy Spirit is God, and the Jews had resisted the Holy Ghost.

"“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you." (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

But if God elects or chooses people to salvation, then nobody could resist God. Resistance would be futile.

Ananias and Sapphira had lied to the Holy Ghost, and they instantly died for this sin and a great fear came upon all the church who heard about it (See Acts of the Apostles 5:11). Now, fear does not make a whole lot of sense if they were once saved always saved. For if they were safely in the arms of Jesus, they would simply feel sad that they would miss their friends. They would not fear death because they know that to live is Christ and to die is gain. So fear would not make any sense if Ananias and Sapphira were saved. If Ananias and Sapphira were never saved and they were pretenders, the church would not be in fear that the wicked have perished. They got their due justice. Fear by the church only makes sense if they knew that a similar thing could happen to them with a sin of their own. Fear only makes sense if they knew that Ananias and Sapphira were once saved and then they lost that salvation and went to hell (See: Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11).

You said:
I would like to understand your view of the ministry of the Holy Spirit to those saved by Grace through faith.

Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). This is a true faith and the one that will survive at the Judgment. For we will all be judged by our works at the judgment. Just do a study on the judgment, and you will see that this is the case. The Holy Spirit (in addition to the Father, and the Son) plays a crucial role in our Sanctification (i.e. to live holy in this life) after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Which includes believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and by calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved (Romans 10:13) and or by seeking forgiveness with Him (Luke 18:9-14)). God does not force us to obey Him. The fact that a believer can sin proves that we are not forced against our will to do God's bidding. But we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). The Holy Spirit will work to protect the believer from sin and warn them of going down the wrong path, but it is up to the believer to ultimately decide on which path they are going to take. We have to choose this day (every day) in whom we will serve.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
It is why people can't hear Grace. Everybody is pigeonholed into the RELIGIONS that are popular today.

I am with you...calvinisim sucks, arminianism sucks. And every religion teaches/preaches some form of this false doctrine.

What is attacked and shut down today?....... His FREEGRACE.

This is why I am not a fan of free grace:

On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburg Pennsylvania health club. At the time of the writing of this article (August 6th), four people had died to include George by his own self-inflicted gunshot wound.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.”

Source:
GEORGE SODINI

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Are you one of His sheep? Don't you find it sad that you can't scream it from the rooftops?

You can't "YES OR NO" that question .........because you have a lot of false doctrines to cover.

Drop all that religion and legalism and DROP to your knees.......Become one of His sheep and live in HIS life. It really is easy, even with life's hardballs.

I don't answer "yes" or "no" to personal questions because the forum guidelines suggest this:

Handling Disagreements

Members who participate in the Soteriology forum are expected to treat one another with courtesy and respect at all times, ESPECIALLY when you disagree with each other.

When you disagree, address the content of the post and not the poster.

Source:
Statement of Purpose - Soteriology DISCUSSION Statement of Purpose

Carl Emerson · Dec 25, 2019

brinny said:
i'm curious...what do you think that verse means?

In addition, have you lined it up with the rest of the verses in His Word that speak of the "fear of the Lord"?

In particular, where it is written that is delightful to fear the Lord, and that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, for instance?

No problem, I have already made my position known on several threads.

First off I don't believe the Old Covenant included believers being permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly I believe Jeremiah correctly predicted that the New Covenant would come with believers being permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly we see in Isaiah 11:2 what aspects of God's character come with the Holy Spirit. These are the Spirit of the Lord, Wisdom, Knowledge, Power, Understanding, Counsel, and the Fear of the Lord. Seven Spirits in all, which are also referred to in Revelation. This is the anointing that Jesus had, and which believers share in to accomplish His work.

It should be noted that all truely born again believers have these 7 spirits indwelling them permanently regardless of what Gifts of the Spirit they may be given.

Now Jeremiah correctly predicted that the indwelling Spirit of the Fear of the Lord would be given to prevent believers turning away from God. (Jer 32:40)

However believers will still be tempted and fall into sin resulting in losing out on the blessings of the Kingdom in this life and eternal rewards in future. This however will not
effect their eternal status and Son's and Daughters of God. This is because the fear of Him will seal them against the possibility of falling away completely as promised...

So the critical matter is not will you loose your salvation but are you truely Born Again.

So the Fear of God is truely the beginning of Wisdom and it isn't Wise to fall away !!!

I hope this clarifies matters - typically discussion on these issues mixes up eternal status and kingdom blessing which are two very different issues.

Lastly I don't believe that He wants us to be wondering if we are saved. This is confirmed by 1 John 2:20-23 - so if there is any doubt, make it a priority to understand if you are Truely His.

redleghunter · Dec 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
James 2:24 says the exact opposite of your statement here, my friend.

So Paul was wrong in his teaching that we are saved apart from works?

redleghunter · Dec 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
God the Father gives the believer in Jesus Christ the Spirit (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) after they believe in Jesus as their Savior (John 7:39), and they repent (i.e. seek forgiveness with the Lord).

There’s a Biblical category where people believe but don’t repent? Isn’t that what born again and new creation means. Or is that all academic to you?

The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

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Thank You Jesus!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Thank You Jesus!

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