The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 24, 2019

Kaon said:
He is The Mathematician; His Covenants/Contracts are often "if/then" statements at base.

The "if" statements in those verses that talk about salvation proves that salvation is conditional.

jimmyjimmy · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The topic of this thread is "conditional salvation."
It is about discussing those verses that appear to teach "conditional salvation." 1 John 1:7 and many others are such verses that we need to talk about. But of course, many try to change the topic because they do not want to deal with these verses in what they plainly say. Hence, why you are attempting to change the topic. Granted, I am not against discussing other topics, but they should be in another thread or they should not try to diverge the point of topic of this thread. So I am asking you to offer a word for word commentary on the verses in the OP that appear to teach "conditional salvation." But I know you will not do that because it refutes what you believe. Then again, I do like to be proven wrong in these cases.

If obeying the Law saved or kept anyone, Christ could have saved Himself a lot of pain and suffering.

You may stick to your topic. I understand that, but the Bible defines the Bible, so one must be able to think broadly, not simplistically, about its doctrines. They are all woven together, and can't be segregated, without losing vital details in doing so.

Kaon · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The "if" statements in those verses that talk about salvation proves that salvation is conditional.

If you do the will of the Most High God, then you are my brother and mother.

Yes, "if/then" statements in math are categorically conditional.

Gr8Grace · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light [love our brother]... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Many believers will admit that the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ saves us. So the last part of this verse is referring to salvation.

The word "if" sets a conditional clause. If... If.... if.... we walk.

"If" is not a guarantee.

It's always ironic that the losers of salvation preach "love your brother" or "forgive your brother" for your salvation and to maintain salvation.

What is the epitome of not loving your brother and not forgiving your brother?...loss of salvation.

This is walking in the light and it seems you don't know how.

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
If we do.....name and site it to God.

In doing this we fulfill ALL that God desires from us.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 24, 2019

jimmyjimmy said:
If obeying the Law saved or kept anyone, Christ could have saved Himself a lot of pain and suffering.

You may stick to your topic. I understand that, but the Bible defines the Bible, so one must be able to think broadly, not simplistically, about its doctrines. They are all woven together, and can't be segregated, without losing vital details in doing so.

There is a difference between the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), and the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25), vs.... the 613 laws of Moses or the ministry of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7) (2 Corinthians 3:9) or the Law of sin and death (Romans 8:2) or the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

Even believing on Jesus is a commandment or law (1 John 3:23).
In other words, Paul was not condemning the commands or laws such as 1 John 3:23, Galatians 6:2, and James 1:25, etc.; Scripture condemns the idea of one in seeking to be justified by the 613 laws of Moses (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 24, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
It's always ironic that the losers of salvation preach "love your brother" or "forgive your brother" for your salvation and to maintain salvation.

What is the epitome of not loving your brother and not forgiving your brother?...loss of salvation.

This is walking in the light and it seems you don't know how.

Do not grieve the Spirit.
Do not quench the Spirit.
If we do.....name and site it to God.

In doing this we fulfill ALL that God desires from us.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15) (NKJV).

25 "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
28 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?" (Luke 10:25-29).

Jesus then gives us the parable of the good Samaritan to show us who are neighbor that we are to love is. Jesus did not correct the lawyer and said that he was wrong in that we should love God, and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus said, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." (Luke 10:28).

FreeGrace2 · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Anyways, getting back on topic:

We see that salvation is conditional in many verses in the Bible.
Jesus says in Matthew 6:15 that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. You cannot go to Heaven and be unforgiven by the Father. It's just not gonna happen. Forgiveness of sin is a part of the package deal of salvation.

Haven't you ever read what Jesus said about recipients of salvation?

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish." John 10:28

Your theory is in direct conflict with what Jesus said.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The "if" statements in those verses that talk about salvation proves that salvation is conditional.

Except NONE of the verses you have provided attach "if" to salvation by any kind of behavior or lifestyle.

The only condition for salvation is faith in Christ. Which is by grace, not by works.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 24, 2019

John 10:27 is the condition of salvation in John 10:28. Jesus said that the kind of sheep that will not perish is the kind that will FOLLOW Him (John 10:27). To follow Jesus means to obey Jesus.

1 John 1:7 does include an IF statement and it says that we have to walk in the light as Christ is in the light of God the Father in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin.

To be cleansed of all sin is dealing with salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to the Justification Process in coming to the Lord for the first time for salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about "Initial Salvation" because believers are only quickened (or "made alive") once (Ephesians 2:1), and gifts are only received once (Ephesians 2:8). We do not keep receiving the same gift year after year. Ephesians 3:17 says, "that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love," (NKJV). This does not mean Paul did not teach that works of faith were not necessary after being saved by God's grace without works in the Justification Process. Paul says that you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16). Paul says that if we live after the flesh (sin) we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, we will live (Live eternally) (See: Romans 8:13). For God has chosen us to salvation by a belief in the truth, AND by the Sanctification of the Spirit (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13). For there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but who walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:1).

Gr8Grace · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).).

When we(You and me) grieve or quench the Spirit we manifest or LOOK like we are the children of the devil. 1 John 1:9 for us and get back into the light....Which is fellowship/walking and filled with the Spirit/abiding.

And loss of salvation is the epitome of not loving the bretheren.

Bible Highlighter said:
""Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15) (NKJV).).

Whoever teaches or preaches loss of salvation(hates his brother) is not ABIDING in eternal life. Eternal is just that.....never ending.
This is where you are confused. We HAVE eternal life, but if we are grieving or quenching the Spirit we are not ABIDING in it. See that?

You have eternal life(never ending.) If you were ABIDING in it, you would throw out loss of it at this very moment. John 10:28.

Are you one of His sheep RIGHT NOW ? (John 10:27) Then John 10:28 is true RIGHT NOW for you.

You see the conundrum your in? You can't claim to be one of His sheep right now. Because His sheep never perish.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 24, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
When we(You and me) grieve or quench the Spirit we manifest or LOOK like we are the children of the devil. 1 John 1:9 for us and get back into the light....Which is fellowship/walking and filled with the Spirit/abiding.

And loss of salvation is the epitome of not loving the bretheren.

No. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:10 says we can know the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in the fact that the person who does not righteousness and who does not love their brother is not of God.

You said:
Whoever teaches or preaches loss of salvation(hates his brother) is not ABIDING in eternal life. Eternal is just that.....never ending.
This is where you are confused. We HAVE eternal life, but if we are grieving or quenching the Spirit we are not ABIDING in it. See that?

That's not what the 1st epistle of John says. It does not say that he that preaches a loss of salvation hates his brother. You added that to Scripture. It does not exist.

You said:
You have eternal life(never ending.)

No. Jesus has eternal life because He alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). In order to have eternal life, we have to abide in the Son (See 1 John 5:12).

You said:
If you were ABIDING in it, you would throw out loss of it at this very moment.

No. I believe that a believer can have an assurance of eternal life by knowing the Son by keeping His commandments (See 1 John 2:3-4).

You said:
John 10:28.

Are you one of His sheep RIGHT NOW ? (John 10:27) Then John 10:28 is true RIGHT NOW for you.

Again, John 10:27 says that his sheep FOLLOWS Him. In other words, the true sheep that cannot be snatched out of Jesus's hand is the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus.

You said:
You see the conundrum your in? You can't claim to be one of His sheep right now. Because His sheep never perish.

Again, the condition of the kind of sheep that never perish are the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. They are believers who obey Jesus. They are not lazy sheep doing nothing.

Gr8Grace · Dec 24, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, the condition of the kind of sheep that never perish are the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. They are believers who obey Jesus. They are not lazy sheep doing nothing.

Are you one of His sheep? If yes.....then you have eternal Life and will never perish.

You can't claim to be one of His Sheep if you claim that you can perish.

Simple, a 5 year old can figure this out. If you can perish, then your not one of His sheep. If your one of His sheep, you can never perish.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
John 10:27 is the condition of salvation in John 10:28.

Please stop making false statements. Anybody can easily see that v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what Jesus' sheep DO. Or a policy statement about what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO. Take your pick. What it clearly ISN'T is a conditional statement or conditional clause about how to never perish.

v.28 is the best single verse on eternal security. Simply on the BASIS of being given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That is what Jesus said. And said in the clearest of words.

Jesus said that the kind of sheep that will not perish is the kind that will FOLLOW Him (John 10:27). To follow Jesus means to obey Jesus.

No He didn't say that.

1 John 1:7 does include an IF statement and it says that we have to walk in the light as Christ is in the light of God the Father in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin.

The conditional statement in 1 Jn 1:7 is about fellowship, a word that occurs only 4 times in 3 verses in chapter 1.

What doesn't occur in either John 10:27 or 28 is the word "if". Or the phrase "as long as". 2 ways to indicate a conditional clause.

To be cleansed of all sin is dealing with salvation.

No, it's required to restore or maintain fellowship with the Lord. Your sins offend the Lord, and break fellowship, just as any offense against your wife results in LOSS of fellowship with her.

Danthemailman · Dec 25, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Please stop making false statements. Anybody can easily see that v.27 is a DESCRIPTION of what Jesus' sheep DO. Or a policy statement about what Jesus' sheep OUGHT TO DO. Take your pick. What it clearly ISN'T is a conditional statement or conditional clause about how to never perish.

v.28 is the best single verse on eternal security. Simply on the BASIS of being given eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Amen! Verse 27 is certainly a 'DESCRIPTION' of what Jesus' sheep 'DO.' Verse 28 is an excellent verse on eternal security. :oldthumbsup:

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them do not hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) 28 And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them shall never perish, but some of them shall perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them shall not be snatched out of His hand, but some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

Mountainmanbob · Dec 25, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
The intent of those passages was not to make them afraid, it was to inform them that they had to keep in the faith.

Trust in Christ alone
examine yourself
repent often
finish the Good Race
MB

Gr8Grace · Dec 25, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, John 10:27 says that his sheep FOLLOWS Him. In other words, the true sheep that cannot be snatched out of Jesus's hand is the kind of sheep that FOLLOW Jesus. .

Are you one of His sheep? John 10:27

His sheep have eternal life and will NEVER perish. John 10:28

You can't claim to be one of His sheep if you think you can perish.

I am one of His sheep. John 10:27 He tells me I will never perish. John 10:28

Al Touthentop · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Are you one of His sheep? John 10:27

His sheep have eternal life and will NEVER perish. John 10:28

You can't claim to be one of His sheep if you think you can perish.

I am one of His sheep. John 10:27 He tells me I will never perish. John 10:28

His sheep continue to follow him. They will perish if they stop following him.

Al Touthentop · Dec 25, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The conditional statement in 1 Jn 1:7 is about fellowship, a word that occurs only 4 times in 3 verses in chapter 1.

.

So it is your position then that people who have no fellowship with Christ, because they are sinning, are going to be judged as righteous on the judgement day?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Are you one of His sheep? John 10:27

Let's stick to Scripture, and not make it personal here.
What does verse 27 say?

Let's read it.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
(John 10:27).

So the sheep FOLLOW Jesus.
This means that they obey Jesus.

What else does verse 27 says?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
(John 10:27).

1 John 2:3 essentially says that the way we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord is if we find that we are keeping His commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).

1 Corinthians 8:3 says,
"But if any man love God, the same is known of him."

Jesus says,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." (John 15:10).

So taking this all into account, we have to keep His commandments as a part of the kind of sheep that will never perish or be snatched out of his hand. The command keeping sheep will never be snatched out of his hand and will never perish. Jesus is not talking about sheep who break his commandments and or who are lazy and do not follow Him.

So you have to keep His commandments as a part of life.
Jesus even says this in Matthew 19:17-19, and implies this by agreeing the lawyer that we have to love God, and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

You said:
His sheep have eternal life and will NEVER perish. John 10:28

Very true. But this is the sheep that FOLLOW Jesus based on verse 27.
This is the sheep who Jesus knows. We can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). Jesus is not talking about any kind of sheep here.

You said:
You can't claim to be one of His sheep if you think you can perish.

Context. Jesus is speaking in perspective to the sheep in hindsight of the kind of life that they lived. Jesus is referring to those sheep who lived faithfully in this life by truly following or obeying Him.

You said:
I am one of His sheep. John 10:27 He tells me I will never perish. John 10:28

How does one become a sheep? That is the question. I believe verse 27 helps to describe the kind of sheep that Jesus says will never perish and will never be snatched out of his hand. These are the sheep who FOLLOW Him, and who know Him by keeping His commandments.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 25, 2019

Gr8Grace said:
Are you one of His sheep? John 10:27

His sheep have eternal life and will NEVER perish. John 10:28

You can't claim to be one of His sheep if you think you can perish.

I am one of His sheep. John 10:27 He tells me I will never perish. John 10:28

Amen!!

The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

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