WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

Revealing Times

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Your interpretation my friend ;)
If it was I would include that part. We as Christians are supposed to know the voice of the Holy Spirit, I said, I think this or that via Daniel/Revelation for years, because I don't put words into God's mouth. When God teaches us because we learned to humble ourselves and ASK God for the answers instead of having all the answers, then we can know what we spoke on with authority. I have never had trouble telling what's of God and what is not, I learned the problem was not shedding ourselves of Men's Traditions, which BLOCKED God from giving us His understandings. The Pharisees of Jesus time couldn't see Jesus BECAUSE they were learned men, the Disciples were BABES, thus God could teach them. Once I learned to put off old Men's Traditions, like the RCC stuff {well I did that 25 years ago} about 5 years ago in full, I started hearing God's truths via Daniel and Revelation.

So I know truth via Gd when I hear it, the hard part is getting rid of the clutter where we can hear God's small still voice.
 
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Douggg

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Still Jerusalem
At some point, after the person has become the beast, the ten kings that rule with him destroy the harlot with fire - although they had had previous relations with her.

That is not to say the woman is Mystery Babylon the great, but is influenced by Mystery Babylon the great.

It would appear the woman is the Vatican that will be destroyed, given that over time the European kings have been in mutually benefit relation with the Vatican.

After the person becomes the beast, that relation will no longer serve the ten kings purpose, for one thing the Vatican says that Jesus is God - which will run counter to the beast person's claim.
____________________________________________________

Babylon the Great - Satan and his angel's mystical kingdom ruling over the nations.

The harlot - the Vatican.
___________________________________________________

Jerusalem is one the great cities in Revelation that has had a checkered past. But Jerusalem is neither the harlot, nor Mystery Babylon the Great. Although some argument could be made based upon Jerusalem history of idol worship resulting in the captivities.

Jerusalem will be saying blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord at Jesus's return. Mystery Babylon the Great, on the other hand, Satan's kingdom will be destroyed.

The future of the Vatican, it will end (permanently) during the 7 years when it is destroyed by the ten kings. None of the church denominations as far as that goes, during the millennium.
 
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DavidPT

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Still Jerusalem

Your interpretation of Revelation 18:6 is the following then??

Revelation 18:6 Reward her(Jerusalem) even as she(Jerusalem) rewarded you(Jerusalem), and double unto her(Jerusalem) double according to her(Jerusalem) works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
 
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Douggg

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None taken. I just disagree with your interpretation of Revelation
btw, I don't hold that the pope/papacy is the Antichrist nor beast as the historist view does. I think the person will be a Jew and his religion, initially, will be Judaism, who practices Kabbalah.
 
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Woke

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Jesus charged the 1st century scribes and pharisees of earthly Jerusalem with all the the righteous blood shed. Were the scribes and pharisees of the 1st century around when Abel was killed? No of course not, and yet Jesus holds them accountable for all the righteous blood shed anyways. So your counter argument doesn't work.

Matthew 25:35-36 And so upon YOU will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 11:47-51 Woe to you! You build tombs for the prophets, but it was your fathers who killed them. So you are witnesses consenting to the deeds of your fathers: They killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and others they will persecute.’ As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary.f Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.



Let's stick to objective arguments. I could also make the same subjective argument that your interpretation is a lie, without any evidence. But it doesn't really add anything to the debate, just pointless conjectures.



How exactly is my conclusion illogical? My conclusion is since Jesus literally charges the peoples of 1st century earthly Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed in Luke 11 and Matthew 23, then Babylon/harlot is Jersusalem, as Babylon/harlot is charged with all the righteous blood shed.

Revelation 17:6 I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus. And I was utterly amazed at the sight of her.

Revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

Are there any other non-apocolyptic/symbolic scriptures besides Matthew 23 and Luke 11 that explain someone/something else, other than the peoples of 1st century Jerusalem, as responsible for all the righteous blood shed? If you can, this would help support your position that Babylon/harlot is not Jerusalem.
Yes. The quotes from Matthew and Luke that you cited make my point. No other scripture needs to be cited, though they exist. Christ did not say first century Jews in Jerusalem were responsible for the shedding the blood of all righteous people. That would be impossible since none of them could have been older than 100years. What he said is they would pay the penalty for what they and their ancestors did. See his vineyard parable. In that parable and in your quote Christ was considering the prophets God had sent to Israel as righteous because God picked them to work for him by delivering God's messages. The first century Jews were judged for killing the son. As Christ said would happen in that parable.

REVELATION was written after Jerusalem was destroyed. Babylon the Great could not be Jerusalem. Your argument dismissed every factual description about Babylon the Great except her blood guilt.

First century Jerusalem was under the thumb of another nation. It was not over all the kings of the earth as Babylon the Great is described as being. It certainly did not mislead people in other nations by its spiritual practices. It was not destroyed by a conglomerate government entity as the Beasts is described representing many kings. But Jerusalem was destroyed by just one government.

There is one similarity between Babylon the Great and the citation by Christ you cited. Christ was speaking to the religious leaders in that citation. In the parable I referenced he was also speaking about religious leaders. And as I claimed before Babylon the Great too represents religions. The difference is those earlier citations of Christ represented only Judaism. Babylon the Great on the other hand represents all religions and all denominations.

The reason why God holds religion in such contempt is because it claims to represent him while leading people away from him. We see that throughout scripture. God calls her a harlot for that reason, because it not only appeases kings as Revelation states, it also appeases its audience, the flock it depends on to survive.
 
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Douggg

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Babylon the Great on the other hand represents all religions and all denominations
"influences" all religions, and more broadly influences the earth, in such things as the love of money and power.

Babylon the Great is a label for the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels controlling the earth. Their kingdom is responsible for all that have been slain upon the earth.

It is the anti- Kingdom of God.

There is no actual city Babylon the Great in Revelation 18. That chapter is referring to when God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom - which in Revelation 18 is being likened to a great city that meets its demise.

The dismantling of Satan's kingdom begins in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:7-9, as Satan and his angels are cast down to earth from the second heaven. In Revelation 18, that casting down to earth is "Babylon the great" is fallen, is fallen" in Revelation 18:2.
 
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DavidPT

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There is no actual city Babylon the Great in Revelation 18.


Of course there isn't. I don't know how some cannot see that? It for sure isn't meaning the literal city of Jerusalem in the ME. But if I am wrong, then someone needs to provide Scriptures from the OT where it was talking about Babylon and that it really meant Jerusalem instead.

Jeremiah 34:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and all his army, and all the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion, and all the people, fought against Jerusalem, and against all the cities thereof, saying,


Here's a passage from the OT where Babylon and Jerusalem are mentioned in the same verse. Who would claim, in this verse it shows that Babylon and Jerusalem are one and the same?


Speaking of the OT, and great Babylon, here's an interesting passage.

Daniel 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

Does anyone think, in verse 30 the king was meaning Jerusalem when he said this great Babylon?
 
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Revealing Times

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If we actually use scripture to interpret scripture, Babylon/harlot can only be earthly Jerusalem and those associated with it.

Not using scripture to interpret scripture only leads to speculation. As we can see, there hundreds if not thousands of speculations on this website alone.


1.) The great city is defined by scripture as where Jesus was crucified - Jerusalem. No other scripture defines what the great city is.
You guys demand there can only be one GREAT CITY, there were many, but of course the very verse you cite shows its speaking about Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Rules over the Kingdoms of the earth........who rules all the Kingdoms of the earth ? Only Satan, of course, no actual City/Nation has ever ruled all the Kings, but Satan has.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

So Babylon, the Head of Gold, that is DESTROYED by Jesus is THAT CITY. Only Satan can be said to rule over all the Kingdoms of the earth. Its really that simple.

Babylon is just one of the Harlot's DESCRIPTORS anyway.
 
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Revealing Times

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2.) Babylon/harlot was charged with the all the bloodshed. Jesus charged Jerusalem/Sanhedrin/priesthood of the earthly 1st century Jerusalem with the all the righteous bloodshed. No other scriptures ascribe the blood of the righteous to anyone else.

Revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

Matthew 23:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Not Babylon, but THE HARLOT...............You are conflating the two, The Harlot is seen and Judged in Rev. 17, and Babylon the Great is JUDGED in Rev. 18.

The Blood of ALL THE Prophets and Martyrs can't be on Jerusalem as Rev. 17 says HAS TO BE THE CASE !! We have to follow Scriptures, just like the RCC can't be TAGGED with this because they weren't around when the Prophets & Saints of old were killed, then Jerusalem can't be blamed for ALL THE BLOOD of these same Saints/Prophets of old AND the Martyrs of Jesus Christ. When is this going to sink in to people ? FOLLOW THE CLUES...unless every clue fits, you must acquit !!

Rev. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So THE HARLOT, has to have the Blood of the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus on her hands.

NOW THINK !! Only ONE ENTITY FITS all the clues. The RCC wasn't around to kill all the Saints and Prophets of old. The Jews didn't rule Jerusalem for 2000 some odd years. And the Jewish people {which is what Jerusalem means when it says Oh Jerusalem etc. etc.} again I repeat.....AND the Jewish people didn't kill all the Saints and Prophets, nor did they kill all the Martyrs of Christ, heck the Jews haven't even been around/in control of Jerusalem, or in a position of power to kill Christians for the last 2000 years. But Islam has killed many Christians, Rome did kill many Christians because they wouldn't worship THEIR GODS, likewise Islam has that same test in many cases, all infidels MUST DIE. Babylon also killed many Jewish Saints of Old.

ALL of these were killed, both the Saints of Old, Prophets {even those Prophets killed by Jews} AND the Martyrs of Jesus by ONE COMMON DENOMINATOR............False Religious peoples !! Or those who knew not the true God, and that includes Jewish Kings who killed the Prophets when they came forth and said, "THUS SAITH THE LORD GOD", those Jewish Kings, unlike David, refused to acknowledge their sins, they refused in many cases to stop worshiping their FALSE GODS, and in many cases killed the Prophet of God. Likewise, all the Saints of old and Prophets were killed by IGNORANT PEOPLE who served FALSE DEITIES !!

And no one would murder us Christians if they knew the Living God would they ? Because then they would know that Allah is not a real God, thus they wouldn't murder Christians.

So ALL FALSE RELIGION has killed all the Saints/Prophets AND Christians EVER KILLED !! Not the RCC, not the Jews !!

ADD UP THE CLUES and you get the answer !!

Who is the ONLY ENTITY that can have all the blood of the Saints/Prophets AND Martyrs of Christ on her hands again ?

Only ALL FALSE RELIGION............None other.
 
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Revealing Times

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3.) When Babylon/Harlot is destroyed, the wedding feast occurs. According to Jesus, after Jerusalem is destroyed, the wedding feast occurs.

Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

And the Marriage Feast is Armageddon, you realize that right ? And God says those he kills at Armageddon is BABYLON THE GREAT in Rev. 16:19.

Once again, you are CONFLATING The Harlot {All False Religion} and Babylon the Great {WHOLE WORLD}

Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Armageddon is the Wedding Feast.
 
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Revealing Times

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Who was around when Cain slew Abel ?
Its still ALL FALSE RELIGION......Cain slew Abel because he was Jealous of Abel's OFFERING !!

So he had false pride that needed not be. But every instance of every death doesn't have to be so and so, but in its ROOT CORE, all deaths/murders come from Men not Obeying God. And if you serve the wrong gods that's going to be a lot easier to do, because all false gods are really Satan THE MURDERER. So even though Cain served the "RIGHT God" it seems, he heard the voice of Satan via his Jealousy. So he heard FALSE REPORTS.
 
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Douggg

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Its still ALL FALSE RELIGION......Cain slew Abel because he was Jealous of Abel's OFFERING !!

So he had false pride that needed not be. But every instance of every death doesn't have to be so and so, but in its ROOT CORE, all deaths/murders come from Men not Obeying God. And if you serve the wrong gods that's going to be a lot easier to do, because all false gods are really Satan THE MURDERER. So even though Cain served the "RIGHT God" it seems, he heard the voice of Satan via his Jealousy. So he heard FALSE REPORTS.
Jealousy is not a "religion". The point I am making is Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels, which was in existence at the time. As time progressed, false religions became a product of Babylon the Great, but also things like evil
kingships.
 
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Revealing Times

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Jealousy is not a "religion". The point I am making is Babylon the Great is the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels, which was in existence at the time. As time progressed, false religions became a product of Babylon the Great, but also things like evil
kingships.
Again, the Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION, Period. Babylon is a DESCRIPTOR of the Harlot.

You and others conflate the Harlot WITH........The Beast she rides {Governments of the World under Satan}.

Rev. 17 is the Judgment of the Harlot.....the Kings in league with the Beast kill her off.

Rev. 18 is Babylon, and gets Judged by the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, the last vial being Jesus Christ showing up to cast the Beast and False Prophet into Hellfire.
 
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Douggg

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Again, the Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION, Period. Babylon is a DESCRIPTOR of the Harlot.
The harlot and mystery Babylon the Great are two separate entities.

Worshiping of the beast is a false religion. Yet, the ten kings who support the beast destroy the harlot with fire.

The harlot will be seen by the ten kings as doing something in conflict with the false religion of worshiping the beast.
______________________________________

The harlot - the Vatican. To be destroyed by the ten kings. For not subscribing to acknowledging the beast's person's claim of being God.

Mystery Babylon the Great - the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels, having influence on the affairs of men. The anti to the Kingdom of God.

Mystery Babylon the Great is not destroyed by the ten kings, like the harlot will be. Mystery Babylon the Great is destroyed by act of God.

Revelation 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

God is going to destroy Satan and his angel's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great during the time, times, half times that Satan will have left in the second half of the 7 years.
 
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DavidPT

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The harlot and mystery Babylon the Great are two separate entities.


I have to question that statement in light of what I have underlined below.


Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
 
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Woke

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"influences" all religions, and more broadly influences the earth, in such things as the love of money and power.

Babylon the Great is a label for the mystical kingdom of Satan and his angels controlling the earth. Their kingdom is responsible for all that have been slain upon the earth.

It is the anti- Kingdom of God.

There is no actual city Babylon the Great in Revelation 18. That chapter is referring to when God starts dismantling Satan's kingdom - which in Revelation 18 is being likened to a great city that meets its demise.

The dismantling of Satan's kingdom begins in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:7-9, as Satan and his angels are cast down to earth from the second heaven. In Revelation 18, that casting down to earth is "Babylon the great" is fallen, is fallen" in Revelation 18:2.
Babylon the Great is destroyed by a conglomerate of human governments. Governments that were mirrored by the beastly governments Daniel saw in a vision. So they must be human governments not demonic governments. That is what Revelation that speaks about the Wild Beast and Babylon the Great says. God puts into the hearts of the leaders of these governments to destroy Babylon the Great. So the Wild Beast or Babylon the Great couldn't be angels battling demons and throwing them to Earth. Revelation says the dragon gives the Beast its authority. Again proving that the Wild Beast is not Satan. Read Daniel's explanations of the identities of the different beasts in his vision. They were all human governments. And the beast in Revelation looks like a conglomerate of Daniel's beasts.

Read the scriptures about Babylon the Great. Its influence reaches over all kings of the earth, which includes these beasts Daniel saw and the Wild Beast of Revelation. Babylon the Great misleads by spiritualistic practices. Only religion does that. True it is influenced by demons, but human government cannot destroy demons or throw them down to Earth. There is nothing on Earth involved with spiritualistic practices except religions. And there is nothing on Earth Christ held as reprehensible as religions claiming to represent God that take people away from God. Remember how Christ viewed literal harlots during his stay with us. They were favored by him while leaders in his religion (Judaism) were not.

REVELATION states "get out of her my people, if you do not want to suffer her plagues." Christ said weed and wheat Christians would exist side by side, until he sends his angels to separate them. So some of Christ's people have to be inside, and be a part of, Babylon the Great. The separation only occurs at the very end of this system for Christ's church as a whole, though many members recognize where they are and leave before that time. It's at the end of the world Babylon the Great is destroyed. And so then the angle is sent to advise Christ's people still there to abandon all religious denominations that oppose God's ways. That includes all of them. Because the denominations are not God's church, only certain chosen individuals are. Christian denominations are no exception to escaping God's judgment for misrepresenting him.

Christ picks individuals out of denominations as he chooses them. Only those individuals he picks are his church. The denominations are not, and the denominations will be destroyed along with other faiths.

Israel was an example of what would come in the future to every other religion. Israel, represented by Jerusalem, was not Babylon the Great, but certain things about its destruction explain why Babylon the Great will be destroyed. It was destroyed because it did not listen to God, killing the people God sent to spread his message, finally his Son. Everyone that teaches against the teachings of Christ who leads a church or teaches in a church is part of the reason Babylon the Great gets destroyed.
 
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Douggg

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I have to question that statement in light of what I have underlined below.


Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Babylon the great is a mystical kingdom. In Revelation 18:3, that kingdom is being likened to a great city, albeit not an actual city, that has by immoral means benefited merchants and kings of the earth, and is responsible for all slain upon the earth. Which would go all the way back to Abel.

Differently, the great harlot is an entity that has prostituted herself. Which in my view is the Vatican. Because historically, the kings of the earth, Europe in particular, has benefited by seeking support of the Vatican. And during the inquisition, the Vatican was responsible for the deaths of many Christians who would not submit to papal rule.

I don't disagree that Mystery Babylon the Great has influenced the great harlot, as has Mystery Babylon the Great has influenced all religions that are not true to the bible.
 
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