Free will, and original sin --a discussion continued

Mark Quayle

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If God created us to sin, to disobey, then there is no other direct cause of sin/evil/disobedience than Him, regardless of His "transcendence". And He'd be less good and trustworthy than satan. It's only due to the free will of created beings that moral evil (sin) is even possible.
All seen from your pov.

We are made by him, and he can do as he pleases with us. If you wish to take the tack that he is evil to do so, by your own standard you will be measure. If you wish to take the tack that free will is the only way to excuse your God, still you will be measured by that standard. God have mercy on all who do such.

But if, on the other hand, you admit that we all deserve destruction, but he has mercy on whom he will, by his own council just as he says, and FOR HIS OWN SAKE, not asking our advice nor permission, yet gentle and kind when we were still at enmity with him, transforming us into his image, not taking the credit for having put ourselves into some equation we call the Gospel, you may have some concept of the truth of the Gospel that is the work of God, and not of man.

The Scripture, and Reformed Theology, and I do not claim there is no will of man, nor that man does not choose and decide. I will even admit the word, "accept" is compelling; as long as it means turning our hearts to him rather than away from him, and that it is done as he knocks, not as we see him coming, but as he does his work on us, I am satisfied. But I must insist, the work he does on us is regeneration, not merely pleading his case, or merely appealing to our reason. We do not have the nature of ourselves to reason our way into the Gospel. This is the work of God.
 
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Mark Quayle

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There is choice. That is made abundantly clear in the Bible.

But the term "free will" should be taken off of any Christian vocabulary. There is a will in humans, there is certainly a will in God, yes. Nonetheless, all confusion around this subject arises from man's evil desires subject to this world's deceptions that resulted in the syncreting of an ungodly greek philosophy concept and perverted Christian theology, to call it somehow.

If a foreign term to the Bible should be used to describe our ability to choose, desire or will something out of the available alternatives and the inner motivations and influences we may be subject to, it is this: Agency. Nothing else.

The issues is then. Of whom are we agents?

Freedom in the Bible has a very distinct and different meaning to the so-called freedom of this world and which is the "freedom" appended to the word "will" in "free will" . This world freedom is in effect a bondage, even if unbeknownst to the bonded. This deceptive freedom could even maybe be experienced because the people who think they are "free" in fact love so much to be bonded to sin and darkness that they rejoice in their freedom from righteousness.
Well said, brother, and I completely agree. The dead in sin cannot please God. Pretty simple, there. The parenthesis they want to put between that law, and the law of freedom in Christ, where the agency of man makes the crossover between them, and neither law for that instant is in operation, is as unmentioned in Scripture as Free Will is.
 
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Cis.jd

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None of this is a problem with God. If God says he predestines, then indeed he does so. He does NOT say he gives us free will, though he does imply choice. If Scripture is the authority, above our arguments, then you are on the losing side to say that free will determines his predestination.

You are doing the same "my arguments are scripture/God's words so I am right" to give yourself a sense of security in your nonsense views. Do you know how many people claimed their views are from scripture and reference various verses to support their case, just check out the sites of JW's and LDS.
This is why reason is important because anybody can just egg each other with cherry picked verses and delude themselves that they are just right because God is on the side.

Up to now, you can't answer my question in regards to Adam and Eve because deep down you know it makes sense that if there is no free will, and all our decisions are controlled or predestined by him then that means he intended for us to fall, and send us to hell anyway. You just don't want to admit it. There is even more I was holding back to ask so I don't overwhelm you.
 
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Mark Quayle

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They do fit together, Thank God.

- God is in full control of every thought you have and wants the best for you.
- You can choose not to believe that.

This proves that the two can not reconcile.
So you are saying then, no "free will"?
 
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Mark Quayle

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You are doing the same "my arguments are scripture/God's words so I am right" to give yourself a sense of security in your religious views. Do you know how many people claimed their views are from scripture and reference various verses to support their case, just check out the sites of JW's and LDS.
This is why reason is important because anybody can just egg each other with cherry picked verses and delude themselves that they are just right because God is on the side.

Up to now, you can't answer my question in regards to Adam and Eve because deep down you know it makes sense that if there is no free will, and all our decisions are controlled or predestined by him then that means he intended for us to fall, and send us to hell anyway. You just don't want to admit it. There is even more I was holding back to ask so I don't overwhelm you.
No, my man. I answered your question concerning Adam and Eve, who chose even without a pre-existing sin nature, to disobey God. I say NO, because you misrepresent what he does. I can agree to your words, but not your conclusion. Without your [apparent] meaning of free will, yes, all our decisions are controlled and predestined by him, and yes, he intended for us to fall, and to condemn us for choosing sin --but you say, "anyway", as if it was unjust for him to do so? Do you pretend we are not willing participants in our own sin, in this scenario? Do you not have some comprehension of the difference, the logical distance, between our will and his? We are nothing like beings of the same sort that he is, without him in us.

But like I told someone else, today, take comfort. He is indeed just and will not exact payment more than is owed. His justice is precise, though thorough.
 
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fhansen

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All seen from your pov.

We are made by him, and he can do as he pleases with us. If you wish to take the tack that he is evil to do so, by your own standard you will be measure. If you wish to take the tack that free will is the only way to excuse your God, still you will be measured by that standard. God have mercy on all who do such.

But if, on the other hand, you admit that we all deserve destruction, but he has mercy on whom he will, by his own council just as he says, and FOR HIS OWN SAKE, not asking our advice nor permission, yet gentle and kind when we were still at enmity with him, transforming us into his image, not taking the credit for having put ourselves into some equation we call the Gospel, you may have some concept of the truth of the Gospel that is the work of God, and not of man.
Nah, that's a fairly distorted version of the gospel. If God created man in such a way as to deserve destruction, with no part for man's own will to play, then God, Himself, creates every single act of evil, regardless of how atrocious and depraved, and then blames man for it anyway, and then even sends some to eternal torment for it-and we'd have to bury our heads in the sand in order believe in and follow such a god. Might as well follow satan; as least he didn't create anyone to sin. But God gave us a sense of justice; we know it when we see it-as we know injustice when we see that. And justice and injustice done are always matters of the will. Culpability is simply related to knowledge and deliberateness of intent-or no moral evil can be committed.
The Scripture, and Reformed Theology, and I do not claim there is no will of man, nor that man does not choose and decide. I will even admit the word, "accept" is compelling; as long as it means turning our hearts to him rather than away from him, and that it is done as he knocks, not as we see him coming, but as he does his work on us, I am satisfied. But I must insist, the work he does on us is regeneration, not merely pleading his case, or merely appealing to our reason. We do not have the nature of ourselves to reason our way into the Gospel. This is the work of God.
It's not a matter of appealing merely to our reason; but appeal He does; that's the central message of the cross; He appeals to our whole beings with self-sacrificial love, with grace; He seeks to inform and rectify and draw the will, without coercion, force, or strict determinism in any case. If He was going to determine our destinies for us than He may as well have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, or simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest to begin with, and avoided all the suffering, evil, sin, pain, and death that followed the Fall of man. Instead He patiently worked with man over centuries, cultivating him until he might, just barely, begin to be drawn to and embrace the light when he's presented with it, having developed a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a hunger and thirst for God in the relatively godless world that's he's been exiled to, so he may begin to choose rightly IOW.

That's what God wants-that's what God covets, like a good parent desiring His children to make right choices. But we can't do it without Him; we couldn't save ourselves if our lives depended on it-which they do; we wouldn't know where to start; we're lost. But we can still refuse to accept-or spit it all back in His face later on at any point down the road.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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According to some He herds some of His sheep over a cliff into oblivion. Do you believe that?

The Potter does with the clay as He wills, for His good pleasure. Who are *you* oh man to question His actions?

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:20)
 
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Mark Quayle

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If God created man in such a way as to deserve destruction, with no part for man's own will to play, then God, Himself, creates every single act of evil,
There you go again. Where do you get that there is no part for man's corrupt will to play? He indeed does choose. And chooses against God. I don't pretend that we are not totally involved in our own sin.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hello, maybe when there is no free will, then you don't have any choice.....
If Scripture is the authority, then we do have choice. Nevertheless, our nature will out itself within every choice.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Anyone got something like a chart or diagram that highlights this debate?
That is one of my problems with Reformed Doctrine: The apparent necessity to diagram the logical sequence of thought on the matter. Nevertheless, I have found no better, outside of Scripture itself. We do like to put handles on the bucket.
 
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Cis.jd

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No, my man. I answered your question concerning Adam and Eve, who chose even without a pre-existing sin nature, to disobey God. I say NO, because you misrepresent what he does. I can agree to your words, but not your conclusion. Without your [apparent] meaning of free will, yes, all our decisions are controlled and predestined by him, and yes, he intended for us to fall, and to condemn us for choosing sin --but you say, "anyway", as if it was unjust for him to do so?

But like I told someone else, today, take comfort. He is indeed just and will not exact payment more than is owed. His justice is precise, though thorough.

You never answered it. In your OP all you had was "it's bad logic" that's it... and here you are not answering it again, instead you are paraphrasing my question.

Of course that "anyway" is showing you that logically it is unjust for him just create life (regardless of no one asking), destine them to fail, and then destine them to horrible torment for eternity if they don't appease him. Will you be able to logically explain how that isn't unjust other than "I am just a mere human and he is just God, so there".

Do you pretend we are not willing participants in our own sin, in this scenario? Do you not have some comprehension of the difference, the logical distance, between our will and his? We are nothing like beings of the same sort that he is, without him in us.

No i don't. I am the one arguing with you about how God gave man free will and does not control our thoughts/actions after all. Your "we are nothing like him" is completely irrelevant and nothing more than an excuse you are using to hide the fact that you have no argument.
 
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misput

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The Potter does with the clay as He wills, for His good pleasure. Who are *you* oh man to question His actions?

"But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:20)
Anyone can quote scripture but very few understand it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Nah, that's a fairly distorted version of the gospel. If God created man in such a way as to deserve destruction, with no part for man's own will to play, then God, Himself, creates every single act of evil, regardless of how atrocious and depraved, and then blames man for it anyway, and then even sends some to eternal torment for it-and we'd have to bury our heads in the sand in order believe in and follow such a god. Might as well follow satan; as least he didn't create anyone to sin. But God gave us a sense of justice; we know it when we see it-as we know injustice when we see that. And justice and injustice done are always matters of the will. Culpability is simply related to knowledge and deliberateness of intent-or no moral evil can be committed.

It's not a matter of appealing merely to our reason; but appeal He does; that's the central message of the cross; He appeals to our whole beings with self-sacrificial love, with grace; He seeks to inform and rectify and draw the will, without coercion, force, or strict determinism in any case. If He was going to determine our destinies for us than He may as well have prevented Adam from sinning to begin with, or simply stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest to begin with, and avoided all the suffering, evil, sin, pain, and death that followed the Fall of man. Instead He patiently worked with man over centuries, cultivating him until he might, just barely, begin to be drawn to and embrace the light when he's presented with it, having developed a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a hunger and thirst for God in the relatively godless world that's he's been exiled to, so he may begin to choose rightly IOW.

That's what God wants-that's what God covets, like a good parent desiring His children to make right choices. But we can't do it without Him; we couldn't save ourselves if our lives depended on it-which they do; we wouldn't know where to start; we're lost. But we can still refuse to accept-or spit it all back in His face later on at any point down the road.
Sure we can refuse to "accept", but those he chooses will not finally, because he changes their hearts. According to Scripture, the dead in sin cannot do so, ALWAYS willfully rejecting him. BTW, the word "receive" concerning his indwelling Spirit is not quite the same thing as "accept", the currently popular word that admits to the supposed integrity of man, vs the purpose of God.
 
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Cis.jd

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There you go again. Where do you get that there is no part for man's corrupt will to play? He indeed does choose. And chooses against God. I don't pretend that we are not totally involved in our own sin.

Why is man able to choose?
 
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misput

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Romans 9:
10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand,12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”c 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”d14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.


The question is ..does anyone deserve to be saved?
Quoting scripture and asking an unrelated question is dodging the issue
 
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Mark Quayle

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You never answered it. In your OP all you had was "it's bad logic" that's it... and here you are not answering it again, instead you are paraphrasing my question.

Of course that "anyway" is showing you that logically it is unjust for him just create life (regardless of no one asking), destine them to fail, and then destine them to horrible torment for eternity if they don't appease him. Will you be able to logically explain how that isn't unjust other than "I am just a mere human and he is just God, so there".



No i don't. I am the one arguing with you about how God gave man free will and does not control our thoughts/actions after all. Your "we are nothing like him" is completely irrelevant and nothing more than an excuse you are using to hide the fact that you have no argument.
You likewise are claiming that God controlling means we don't choose. You cannot demonstrate that to be true. You insist God operates on our level. He does not.

Perhaps you need to see the crude picture of a child stirring up an ants' nest. He knows what they will do and causes them to act according to their nature.

As for Adam and Eve, I don't know how to find your original question. I assume it to bring into view the difference in original sin that mankind since them is under, vs the fact they disobeyed even without that disadvantage. I don't see how that means they had absolute free will, nor that God cannot have controlled absolutely even every motion of every minutest particle of their being and even what Satan said, yet without himself sinning, nor changing the fact that they indeed made a real choice.
 
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Kaon

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How can the finite human mind truly reconcile anything with omniscience?

His election are literally His children... that's how.

No free will, only freedom to respond. No created being changes the mind of the Most High God, and it is a post-Enlightenment romanticism of human sovereignty (I control my own destiny..."). No humans controls his or her own destiny, but every one of us is still responsible for how we respond to our "fate". It is an apparent paradox because of how we think (academically), but commonplace spiritually.

We have already been told that there is an election (in the canon, Apocrypha and gnostics), and that there is an election that has ALWAYS been with the Most High God. We were also told many, many people who thought they were children of the Most High God will be utterly rejected.

These definitive things (if we believe the Most High God and Word of God) have already happened. Everything that will happen has already happened.
 
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