Faith in the living, resurrected Word (while the scriptures are only 50% historically accurate).

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This post is primarily for those who believe the scriptures (original documents) are an inerrant, perfect representation of historical events. Of course, anyone may comment. (This post may need to be moved, but I figured the topic would be controversial for some so I placed it here).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?

I get the impression from some, who argue for the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if something within the scriptures were not historically accurate, then we could not trust that Jesus Christ is Son of God, whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. But, one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.

Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given? I dare say you would have no good reason to do so. Thoughts? Comments?
 

Tolworth John

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Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. N

Why assume that?
Either they are accurate or they are not accurate.

Currently the evidence is that they are accurate, so let's work with that, rather than unsubstantiated theories.
 
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Currently the evidence is that they are accurate, so let's work with that, rather than unsubstantiated theories

What evidence do you provide to substantiate that they are 100% accurate?

Does the efficaciousness of salvation through Jesus Christ depend on their being 100% accurate?
 
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Why assume that?

I think it's important to treat the scriptures according to their purpose. And, I think it's important to avoid idolatry when it comes to how the scriptures are treated.
 
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Tolworth John

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What evidence do you provide to substantiate that they are 100% accurate?

Does the efficaciousness of salvation through Jesus Christ depend on their being 100% accurate?
Only the evidence of those who have examined the Bible have come to the conclusion that they are accurate and having started as a non Christian have ended by becoming a Christian.
 
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Tolworth John

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I think it's important to treat the scriptures according to their purpose. And, I think it's important to avoid idolatry when it comes to how the scriptures are treated.

I agree with that statement as the assumption the Bible is false is as much an idol as the assumption it is with out error.
 
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redleghunter

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Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate.
What would lead you to offer such an assumption?

Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?
Is the “assuming this were true” relate to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?
 
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redleghunter

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Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today.
But we do know these Scriptures and have over 25,000 manuscripts as proof.

Even the Irish twins know this:

 
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What would lead you to offer such an assumption?

To show that the efficaciousness of the salvation given through Jesus Christ does not depend on the 100% accuracy of the scriptures. For instance, lets assume bears did not attack and kill the youths who called Elisha "baldy." If that did not actually happen, would that nullify the salvation made effective through Jesus Christ?

Is the “assuming this were true” relate to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The "assuming this were true" relates to the following conjunction: The scriptures are only 50% historically accurate + Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God.
 
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redleghunter

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What evidence do you provide to substantiate that they are 100% accurate?

Does the efficaciousness of salvation through Jesus Christ depend on their being 100% accurate?
Bolded above. You have created an unnecessary dichotomy. Not a false dichotomy but one that is unnecessary.

Why? Because the Christian faith is supernatural. God shows He is active in world affairs as He calls us to salvation by means of the Gospel.

And it just so happens we have over 25,000 manuscripts of the NT which confirm this.

Here are some resources to explore:

JEDP
Answering the Documentary Hypothesis | CARM.org

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2002/06...f-the-graf-wellhausen-documentary-hypothesis/

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | CARM.org

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes)

The Institute for Creation Research

http://www.equip.org/article/facts-for-skeptics-of-the-new-testament/

Manuscript Evidence by David Hocking

Is the New Testament Text Reliable? | Stand to Reason

The Textual Reliability of the New Testament | John Ankerberg Show

http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/410

4. The Manuscripts Tell The Story: The New Testament Is Reliable

A Closer Look: The Historical Reliability of the New Testament

Biblical manuscript - Wikipedia

The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

Bible Menu

New Testament Manuscripts Copyright by Norman L. Geisler ppt download

The bearing of recent discovery on the trustworthiness of the New Testament : Ramsay, William Mitchell, Sir, 1851-1939 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

A Brief Sample of Archaeology Corroborating the Claims of the New Testament | Cold Case Christianity

New Testament Documents – Date and Authorship

Timeline of New Testament Books - New Testament Charts (Bible History Online)

Mark fragment Qumran: 7Q5: The Earliest NT Papyrus?

Matthew dating: Arguments for a pre-70 CE Dating of Matthew's Gospel

Early Gospels: The case for the early dating of the Gospels

NT documents: New Testament Documents – Date and Authorship

When Was the New Testament Completed?

Archeological Evidence - Evidences of the Bible

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ramsay/ramsay_gasque.pdf

Josephus and the Old Testament | Scriptures of the Jewish Bible - the Law, the Prophets and the Writings

Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, BOOK I, Whiston section 8 --Josephus

Book of Daniel scholarship: An Introduction to the Book of Daniel

Biblical timelines: Time Line Survey of Bible Events

Daniel DSS: New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls

Jewish Talmud and Death of Jesus: The Jewish Talmud and the Death of Christ

Evidence external of historical Jesus Christ: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Testimony of the Evangelists - Wikipedia

4. Jesus Feeds 5,000 People (Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:30-44; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-15)

The Testimony of Two or Three Witnesses: We Can Trust the Factuality of the Gospel, by Bob and Gretchen Passantino

The testimony of the evangelists examined by the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice : Greenleaf, Simon, 1783-1853 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - Daniel 9 Daniel 9fragments.
 
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JackRT

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Why assume that?
Either they are accurate or they are not accurate.

Or they are partially accurate.

Currently the evidence is that they are accurate, so let's work with that, rather than unsubstantiated theories.

To be more accurate, you have faith that they are accurate because the evidence really is not convincing.
 
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redleghunter

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To show that the efficaciousness of the salvation given through Jesus Christ does not depend on the 100% accuracy of the scriptures. For instance, lets assume bears did not attack and kill the youths who called Elisha "baldy." If that did not actually happen, would that nullify the salvation made effective through Jesus Christ?
Why would that be a problem?

The "assuming this were true" relates to the following conjunction: The scriptures are only 50% historically accurate + Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God.

We have proof from the manuscripts themselves that the reliability of manuscript documents transcribed by human beings are over 99% accurate. The one percent being scribal errors and differing sentence structure. We know these statistics because we have so many manuscripts from different languages and regions to include early Bible compilations like the Latin Vulgate. My other post to you has resources you can research this data.
 
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redleghunter

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To be more accurate, you have faith that they are accurate because the evidence really is not convincing.
The evidence is overwhelming:

JEDP
Answering the Documentary Hypothesis | CARM.org

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2002/06...f-the-graf-wellhausen-documentary-hypothesis/

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | CARM.org

Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes)

The Institute for Creation Research

http://www.equip.org/article/facts-for-skeptics-of-the-new-testament/

Manuscript Evidence by David Hocking

Is the New Testament Text Reliable? | Stand to Reason

The Textual Reliability of the New Testament | John Ankerberg Show

http://www.cslewisinstitute.org/webfm_send/410

4. The Manuscripts Tell The Story: The New Testament Is Reliable

A Closer Look: The Historical Reliability of the New Testament

Biblical manuscript - Wikipedia

The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

Bible Menu

New Testament Manuscripts Copyright by Norman L. Geisler ppt download

The bearing of recent discovery on the trustworthiness of the New Testament : Ramsay, William Mitchell, Sir, 1851-1939 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

A Brief Sample of Archaeology Corroborating the Claims of the New Testament | Cold Case Christianity

New Testament Documents – Date and Authorship

Timeline of New Testament Books - New Testament Charts (Bible History Online)

Mark fragment Qumran: 7Q5: The Earliest NT Papyrus?

Matthew dating: Arguments for a pre-70 CE Dating of Matthew's Gospel

Early Gospels: The case for the early dating of the Gospels

NT documents: New Testament Documents – Date and Authorship

When Was the New Testament Completed?

Archeological Evidence - Evidences of the Bible

https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ramsay/ramsay_gasque.pdf

Josephus and the Old Testament | Scriptures of the Jewish Bible - the Law, the Prophets and the Writings

Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, BOOK I, Whiston section 8 --Josephus

Book of Daniel scholarship: An Introduction to the Book of Daniel

Biblical timelines: Time Line Survey of Bible Events

Daniel DSS: New Light on the Book of Daniel from the Dead Sea Scrolls

Jewish Talmud and Death of Jesus: The Jewish Talmud and the Death of Christ

Evidence external of historical Jesus Christ: Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Testimony of the Evangelists - Wikipedia

4. Jesus Feeds 5,000 People (Matthew 14:13-21; Mark 6:30-44; Luke 9:10-17; John 6:1-15)

More:
The Testimony of Two or Three Witnesses: We Can Trust the Factuality of the Gospel, by Bob and Gretchen Passantino

The testimony of the evangelists examined by the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice : Greenleaf, Simon, 1783-1853 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - Daniel 9 Daniel 9fragments.
 
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redleghunter

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I think it's important to treat the scriptures according to their purpose. And, I think it's important to avoid idolatry when it comes to how the scriptures are treated.
What’s that purpose to you?
 
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Why would that be a problem?

The problem is not whether it happened or not. The problem is assuming that it must have happened in order for the the salvation given through Jesus Christ to be true. That seems to be the main purpose in arguing for the historical inerrancy of the scriptures, i.e. to secure the truth of the gospel. I am arguing that the gospel of Jesus Christ can be true even if no bears killed youths on account of calling Elisha "baldy." You seem to want to say the opposite?
 
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What’s that purpose to you?

To communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ and to be used as a guide to faith and practice. None of that, I am arguing, depends on the scriptures being 100% historically accurate. Do you disagree?
 
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We have proof from the manuscripts themselves that the reliability of manuscript documents transcribed by human beings are over 99% accurate. The one percent being scribal errors and differing sentence structure. We know these statistics because we have so many manuscripts from different languages and regions to include early Bible compilations like the Latin Vulgate.

Transcriptions can be 99% accurate without providing proof that every account within the texts are accurate historical representations.
 
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HTacianas

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This post is primarily for those who believe the scriptures (original documents) are an inerrant, perfect representation of historical events. Of course, anyone may comment. (This post may need to be moved, but I figured the topic would be controversial for some so I placed it here).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that only 50% of the scriptures are (in some sense) historically accurate. Nonetheless, Jesus Christ is the resurrected Son of God whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. Assuming this were true, how would this affect they way you think about the scriptures?

I get the impression from some, who argue for the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if something within the scriptures were not historically accurate, then we could not trust that Jesus Christ is Son of God, whose death and resurrection are efficacious for salvation. But, one does not necessarily follow from the other.

Logically speaking: there is a possible world where Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who is incarnated, dies and rises again, and yet there are no scriptures in the sense that we know them today. Someone might balk and say, "But, how would we know about it?" Well, any number of ways. A different set of writings, perhaps? The point being that the scriptures are not that which makes his death and resurrection efficacious for salvation. They are simply a means to knowing about Christ, as fallible as they might be.

Again, imagine a community of 1st generation Christians, a community that possesses no copy of the scriptures, they find a hermit, they proclaim the gospel in her hearing, and she comes to faith. What does she lack? She has faith in the resurrected Son of God, she has a community within which to worship and learn and grow, so what does she lack not having an opportunity to read the scriptures?

Would you give up the faith if you knew some of the scriptures were not historically accurate and yet you knew that Jesus is in fact the living, resurrected Son of God through whom salvation is given? I dare say you would have no good reason to do so. Thoughts? Comments?

The example case of the hermit is historically what happened. The first generation Christians had no gospels. The Church as a whole had no bible for the first 400 or so years, and after that there were only very few copies of it.

So to answer your question, it wouldn't matter.
 
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redleghunter

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The problem is not whether it happened or not. The problem is assuming that it must have happened in order for the the salvation given through Jesus Christ to be true.
Salvation through Jesus Christ is human history. He actually died and rose again.

Why do bears frighten so much. Those kids were mocking the Prophet of the most High God. Which means they were by extension mocking God.

If you have a problem with the bears then you probably have a problem with all of not most of the OT.

That seems to be the main purpose in arguing for the historical inerrancy of the scriptures, i.e. to secure the truth of the gospel.
Again the account of Christ dead, buried and risen is history. Why would someone believe that dead men rise? Most skeptics can’t get passed that miracle.

Most skeptics don’t believe in the supernatural at all. So how would you convince them Jesus rose from the dead?

I am arguing that the gospel of Jesus Christ can be true even if no bears killed youths on account of calling Elisha "baldy." You seem to want to say the opposite?
The Gospel is true and we have documentary proof of this. The Gospel in Acts always came by word and power. Same today as well. No one is going to be argued into the Kingdom of God.
 
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