Trump Should Be Removed from Office

redleghunter

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Hi RLH

JUst a note to add to one of your posts:


Can we really trust Sen. Graham to be telling us some truth? I don't think there is anyone who has proven themselves to be more 'of two minds' than Sen. Graham. So, the question still remains and to date, Sen Graham has not answered: Was he telling the truth to us when he proclaimed Donald Trump to be a race-baiting, bigot whose nomination would effectively destroy the Republican party? Or is he telling us the truth now about 'who' Donald Trump is?

Personally, I have a hard time knowing when he might be telling me something that he really believes to be true, or trying to sell me some party line that he knows he has to say in order to ingratiate himself with the President. For me, Sen. Graham is the epitome of a politician who would sell his soul to any position so long as he believes it would ensure him another term in office.

How do we know? It's the same question asked in pretty much every legal trial where someone has changed their testimony. How do we know which testimony, of the two that you've given, is the truth? After that, now that we know that the person will lie to us, knowing that one of the two testimonies is not the truth. How do we then know, in future testimony, that anything else they say would be the truth? For me, Sen. Graham has clearly shown himself to be a man without particularly strong convictions. That he seems clearly ok with telling people what he believes they want to hear for his own benefit, despite any truth that may be involved. Personally, I'm hoping that he and President Trump both leave Washington on the same train. They are the swamp! They are the consummate politicians bought by lobbyists to tell us what's in their best interests, over and above any truth.

The swamp will have been drained when our legislature restores the nation with some assurance that the politicians who claim to speak for the majority of their electorate...really do. When we outlaw lobbyists offering similar quid pro quos as to what President Trump has made. An 'I'll do this for you if you'll do that for me' arrangement exists between many of our legislators and the 'special interest groups' that have their ear. That form of governance has now made it all the way to the top of our government and it's pretty blatant. For me, President Trump has not drained the swamp, but has rather dug out more solid earth to allow the swamp to grow larger.

Draining the swamp is just another of his many failed campaign planks. Along with replacing the ACA with a better and less expensive healthcare system. Paying off the national debt in 8 years. Building his 'great wall of Trump'. Enact term limits for Congress. Invest in infrastructure.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
Sorry Ted but I don’t remember where my comments addressed Senator Graham.

Edit: or was your intent to expand the conversation?
 
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redleghunter

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It's that way for other conservative leaders who also loyally support Trump, like Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and Jerry Farwell, Jr. Hypocritical double standards have become the norm.

James Dobson condemning Bill Clinton for his sexual scandals and adultery, "Character does matter. You can't run a family, let alone a country without it. How foolish to believe that a person who lacks honesty and moral integrity is qualified to lead a nation and the world." (Source)

James Dobson endorsing Donald Trump: "I’m not under any illusions that he is an outstanding moral example. It’s a cliché but true: We are electing a commander-in-chief, not a theologian-in-chief.” Source: I’m an evangelical. The religious right leaders who support Trump don’t speak for me.

Here is another example: The televangelist Pat Robertson once called Clinton a "debauched, debased, and defamed" politician who turned the Oval Office into a "playpen for the sexual freedom of the poster child of the 1960s." It’s difficult to understand how Robertson could tell Trump recently, “You inspire us all.” - Article excerpt from: Trump-Loving Christians Owe Bill Clinton an Apology
I won’t address Robertson as I don’t know much about his ministry and former comments.

For Dobson the same issue applies of a false equivalency. It’s right there in his comments and the context of the periods mentioned.

Clinton—-while in office related to his impeachment


Trump——past not while in office not related to his impeachment.


If we can get past that first hurdle of when Dobson made those comments in historical context, perhaps we can move on to what constitutes an unforgivable sin since we are talking about pastors.
 
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redleghunter

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Can we really trust Sen. Graham to be telling us some truth? I don't think there is anyone who has proven themselves to be more 'of two minds' than Sen. Graham. So, the question still remains and to date, Sen Graham has not answered: Was he telling the truth to us when he proclaimed Donald Trump to be a race-baiting, bigot whose nomination would effectively destroy the Republican party? Or is he telling us the truth now about 'who' Donald Trump is?
On the above? Everyone one of our elected members of Congress both House and Senate (maybe not the freshmen yet) has changed positions throughout the years. Everyone of the Democrats in the House said the exact opposite about impeachment in 1998 but favor it now under the conditions they said we should not back in 1998. So not many hands are clean on this.

My gut call is Graham changed a lot during and after the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings. He indicated that before that event and even though was at political odds with his Democratic peers, the goal posts changed and they used manipulation to extend the hearings. I think it was Feinstein’s withholding of information which could have been released much earlier and dealt with. He said he never encountered such deception and he said “I will remember it in the future.”
 
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The Barbarian

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So he does ask for forgiveness as part of his church liturgy.

As we measure it out it will be measured out to us.

If you think communion is "asking for forgiveness", we've located the problem.
 
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The Barbarian

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On the above? Everyone one of our elected members of Congress both House and Senate (maybe not the freshmen yet) has changed positions throughout the years.

Not too many of them change 180 degrees like Graham has.

Republicans should have expelled Donald Trump from the Republican Party, Lindsey Graham said Monday.

The former presidential candidate told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that the New York billionaire’s rhetoric toward immigrants has exacerbated the problem the GOP had with Hispanics in 2012.

“He took our problems in 2012 with Hispanics and made them far worse by espousing forced deportation,” Graham said. “Looking back, we should have basically kicked him out of the party.”

Asked how that would be done, the South Carolina senator suggested Republicans could have united against him like many are doing now.

“The more you know about Donald Trump, the less likely you are to vote for him. The more you know about his business enterprises, the less successful he looks. The more you know about his political giving, the less Republican he looks,” Graham said. “We should have done this months ago.”
Graham: We should have kicked Trump out of the party

And...

The questions of whether Trump is racist, or whether attacking the Squad members proves a charge of racism are subject to debate. But on the subject of whether Trump is a racist, Graham would have to explain the contrary testimony of a senator who said, in 2015, when Trump was seeking the Republican presidential nomination:

“He’s a race-baiting, xenophobic religious bigot. He doesn’t represent my party, he doesn’t represent the values that our men and women in uniform are fighting for.”

The same senator also said: “I’m not going to get into the mind of Donald Trump, because I don’t think there’s a whole lot of space there…. I think he’s a kook. I think he’s crazy. I think he’s unfit for office.”

You probably guessed, but the person who said those things in 2015 was Lindsay Graham. The same Sen. Graham later put on his press critic hat and said: “You ask what concerns me about the American press is I think there’s this endless attempt to label the guy as some kinda kook who’s not fit to be president.”
Sen. Graham would benefit greatly from an Orwellian ‘memory hole’ | MinnPost


Yes, he actually said both of those. Trump has domesticated him.

 
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miamited

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Sorry Ted but I don’t remember where my comments addressed Senator Graham.

Edit: or was your intent to expand the conversation?
Hi RLH,


Oops on me. I mixed up my Grahams.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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The Barbarian

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Pastor Bob Dylan?

Dylan became a Christian in1978; this is a reference to Joshua 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
 
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redleghunter

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If you think communion is "asking for forgiveness", we've located the problem.
Communion for all Christian churches even the Roman Catholic Church is a time of repentance and seeking God’s Grace. Trump is not Catholic but does attend a church which is liturgical. Which means there is a calling of repentance before receiving communion.

This may be dated a bit but at the beginning of each Catholic mass the congregants pray the following.


Penitential Act

The Priest invites the faithful to the Penitential Act.
Then one of the Penitential Acts follows:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
And, striking their breast, they say:
through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
Have mercy on us, O Lord.
For we have sinned against you.
Show us, O Lord, your mercy.
And grant us your salvation.
 
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redleghunter

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Dylan became a Christian in1978; this is a reference to Joshua 24:15

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Good quote.
 
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The Barbarian

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77% of Evangelicals supported Donald Trump in 2016.

Actually, 78% supported him then. By March 2019, evangelical support for Trump fell to 69%, a nine-point drop. And that matters, because it's the only religious group that has a majority favoring Trump.
Evangelical approval of Trump remains high, but other religious groups are less supportive

The other 23% work at Christianity Today.

Twenty-four million people work at Christianity Today?
 
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redleghunter

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Actually, 78% supported him then. By March 2019, evangelical support for Trump fell to 69%, a nine-point drop. And that matters, because it's the only religious group that has a majority favoring Trump.
Evangelical approval of Trump remains high, but other religious groups are less supportive
Evangelicals were the lowest population group to vote for Trump. Yes 80% percent is huge but a smaller piece of the pie. In fact Trump got a lower share than did Romney, McCain and Bush. He only surpassed Dole.

The real story in 2016 was the huge swing in Notional Christians in the last three months before the election. This group does not identify as being Evangelical nor “born again” and do not frequently attend church. It has been a lock step surety for Democrats since Clinton won them over in 1992 and grew in 1996.


From the Barna survey:


While some media analysts have claimed that the evangelical vote for Trump was unusually large, the survey data do not support that claim. The 79 percent that evangelicals awarded to the GOP nominee was actually the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Bob Dole lost to Bill Clinton in 1996, garnering 74 percent of their support. The 79 percent figure earned by Trump in this election was slightly lower than the 81 percent given to Mitt Romney in 2012. Which was previously the lowest level of evangelical support for a Republican candidate since Dole.


While the media have made a big deal about the prolific level of evangelical support won by Trump, the real story may be elsewhere. Barna’s research indicates that perhaps the most significant faith group in relation to the Trump triumph was notional Christians. These individuals – who consider themselves to be Christian, typically attend a Christian church, but are not born again have supported the Democratic candidate in every election since 1996. On average, notionals have given the Democratic candidate 58 percent of their votes. That trend was broken this year as Hillary Clinton took just 47 percent of the group’s votes while Trump was awarded 49 percent. Given that notionals are by far the largest of the five faith segments, that transition was a game changer for the Republicans.

The Barna survey also revealed that Protestants gave Trump 58 percent of their votes and Clinton received only 36 percent. Catholics split their vote, awarding 48 percent to each candidate. This is the first election in the last 20 years in which the Catholic vote was not won by the Democratic candidate.

56925078-79ED-491B-9D67-11A24602FDE5.jpeg


Surprisingly, Trump’s biggest jump in support during the home stretch came from notional Christians. While that segment preferred Clinton by 12 points in September, they wound up siding with Trump by a two-point differential. That represents a 14-point gain in the final two months among the numerically-largest pool of religious voters.

More at link: Notional Christians: The Big Election Story in 2016 - Barna Group
 
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redleghunter

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Twenty-four million people work at Christianity Today?
The Evangelical vote we speak of is 10 million strong and only 7% of voting US citizens.

It seems the group that needs to be “raged against” are the Notional Christians (definition at the Barna link provided in my previous post). But good luck with that. It seems that group likes Trump because they vote their pocketbooks and wallets, don’t give a hoot about his Tweets and populate his rallies. That used to be a shoe in vote for Democrats at a 58% level since Bill Clinton. For some reason they did not go for his wife in 2016. In fact some pundits believe a large portion of these voters favored Ross Perot and the Reform party back in 92 and 96. And after the 96 election did not vote much in national politics. This Notional Christian vote was 43% of the electorate.
 
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Gigimo

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The real story in 2016 was the huge swing in Notional Christians in the last three months before the election. This group does not identify as being Evangelical nor “born again” and do not frequently attend church. It has been a lock step surety for Democrats since Clinton won them over in 1992 and grew in 1996.

Aren't they also known as Nominal Christians or CINO?
 
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The Barbarian

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The Pew Research Center 2014 survey in the United States identified the evangelical percentage of the population at 25.4 percent while Roman Catholics are 20.8 percent and mainline Protestants make up 14.7 percent.
Evangelicalism in the United States - Wikipedia

So Trump's drop in evangelical support is a big deal for him.

The Politico/Morning Consult poll was taken on Dec 19 and 20. The Christianity Today article was published on Dec 19.

According to the poll 43 per cent of evangelicals would approve of the Senate removing Mr Trump from office.

Within that figure 34 per cent would "strongly approve" and nine per cent would "somewhat approve."

Mr Trump still had majority support, with 53 per cent saying they would "disapprove" of the Senate removing him, including 49 per cent who would "strongly disapprove."

However, it was the latest sign that his support among the evangelical community might be starting to crack.
Cracks appear in Donald Trump's support from evangelicals over impeachment, poll shows
 
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