Should Women Be Silent In Church?

yeshuaslavejeff

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Good:
If one believes that the Bible really is the word of God, then I guess women do need to keep silent in church and be submissive to their husbands and wear a head covering and slaves must be obey their masters.
=====================
Note: slavery became more common AFTER the civil war, and worse.
Also: There are plenty of available sermons or studies showing that the Bible is Truth, no matter where or when anyone lives.
However, if the Bible writers were just inspired by God and often spoke simply representing the culture and the times in which they lived, then perhaps women need not be silent in church and or wear head coverings or be submissive to their husbands and then slaves need not obey their masters. (Remember those of you who say that there are no slaves any longer, that slavery was an institution in the United States until the 1860's and slavery no doubt still does exist in a few areas on Earth.)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What I am saying is that we need to apply the skill of hermeneutics to Scripture to ensure that what was written to one group of people does or does not apply to us.
OR, the Author Reveals the Truth. (Hermen might not work right)
 
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I have a question. If Paul's instruction to the Corinthian church that women should keep silent in church and ask their husbands at home was to be applied to the Christian churches in general, and not specifically to the Corinthians, then why did he support Philip's four daughters prophesying in church?
Paul's comment was about keeping a due decorum in church, not about women in church leadership or anything like that.

If his admonition has an application for the churches today, it would probably be that the churches which are commonly called "Holy Rollers" and the ones that feature 'praise and worship' rock bands and light shows are on the wrong course.
 
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OR, the Author Reveals the Truth. (Hermen might not work right)
The truth has already been revealed in the clear words of the Bible. It is plainly written and each part of it can be clearly understood.

The problem is that some cannot accepted what the Bible says literally, and come up with "sub-text" interpretations of it that the author never intended, and his readers didn't understand.

I don't believe in extra-Biblical "voices" giving different interpretations of the Bible that cannot be understood by merely reading the text. Anyone can make the Bible say what they want it to say, by cobbling verses together to give an impression that suits the person's prejudicial view.

Accurate exegesis of the text involves determining what the author actually says, his intention of writing it, who he is writing it to, and how his readers of his time understood it. We then have to determine whether what he wrote was to us, or for us - for our education. For example, just because Judas became depressed and remorseful over betraying Jesus and then went and hanged himself, doesn't mean that we have to do the same when we are remorseful and depressed when we have done something wrong.

Therefore, we can't just pluck verses out of the Bible and use them to say that God is speaking to us right now. Much of what Jesus taught was to unconverted Jews to show that God's standards were quite different to their outward observance of the Law.

Many of the prophecies in the Bible were written for particular times and places and not for today. These prophecies were fulfilled in history right down to the last detail. God said that it was going to happen, and it happened in history exactly as He said it would. To pluck one of those prophecies out and apply it to a modern event is misusing the Scripture and applying it to something which was never intended.

I have written these things to show that truth comes from reading and studying the Bible, doing accurate exegesis and using appropriate hermeneutics to see what we can learn from it. There is no "magic" message that pops out of the text that is different to what is actually there.

We must be careful not to stray into divination when interpreting the text of the Bible.
 
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OR, the Author Reveals the Truth. (Hermen might not work right)
The problem is that some believe all of the Bible was written directly to us and they pluck out individual verses and passages out of their proper context and teach that this is what God is saying to us today. This is where most false doctrine and cults come from.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The problem is that some believe all of the Bible was written directly to us and they pluck out individual verses and passages out of their proper context and teach that this is what God is saying to us today. This is where most false doctrine and cults come from.
Yes, that is a very common problem.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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We must be careful not to stray into divination when interpreting the text of the Bible.
If God Says "turn right", then turn right. Don't try to figure out what He means - like "now?", "later?", "when I FEEL 'led'"? ... When God Says something, Do it. Don't interpret it.
 
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Yes, that is a very common problem.
Two good examples are:
The book of Psalms which teaches us how to pray and praise.
The book of Proverbs gives us principles of basic wisdom.

But the historical books are for our education to show what happens when people obey God and the consequences of disobedience and unfaithfulness. We can learn much from this by the examples shown in these books.

The prophecy books show us that the Bible is totally true in every detail and that no one can be an atheist or agnostic after fully and honestly studying them and seeing how they were totally fulfilled in history. Jesus showed the two disciples at Emmaeus all the prophecies concerning Him right through the Old Testament, and how they were fulfilled right down to the last detail. For example the prophecy about the Messiah riding into the Jerusalem on a donkey was foretold right down to the very day! So, although the prophecies don't relate directly to us, they convince us that God is real and that the Bible is totally accurate in what it says.

Therefore, the prophecies about the end times which are still to be fulfilled will also be fulfilled right down to the last detail.

This is why the Bible is an amazing, unique book; because it is God's inspired communication to mankind, and the overall purpose is to get us to avoid hell and get us saved through faith in Christ.
 
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If God Says "turn right", then turn right. Don't try to figure out what He means - like "now?", "later?", "when I FEEL 'led'"? ... When God Says something, Do it. Don't interpret it.
Most of the time I use my common sense, based on my experience in the Christian life and my study of the Bible, rather than heeding disembodied, extra-Biblical voices purporting to be the voice of God giving me instructions to blindly follow.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The prophecy books show us that the Bible is totally true in every detail and that no one can be an atheist or agnostic after fully and honestly studying them and seeing how they were totally fulfilled in history.
What? The highest religious teachers/ leaders facing Jesus,
the leaders and teachers who know/knew TORAH better than anyone today,
the leaders and teachers Jesus could have saved "if they would",
no matter they had the most time every day in study,
no matter they knew the original languages better than anyone today,
no matter they knew intimate details, the tiniest details, people NEVER EVEN HEAR TODAY,

they also BELIEVED THE BIBLE IS TRUE, YAHUWEH'S TRUTH, as if honoring Him,

BUT they still rejected Yahushua Hamashiach ! ! ! ?! ?

IN PERSON!!!!!! I sure would not want anyone to be in their shoes !

but, is this on topic at least a little ? I'll probably edit delete shortly otherwise ....
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Most of the time I use my common sense, based on my experience in the Christian life and my study of the Bible, rather than heeding disembodied, extra-Biblical voices purporting to be the voice of God giving me instructions to blindly follow.
What about listening to the one and only Shepherd as He Says His Sheep Hear His Voice?
The only way.
Listen to Him, Hear and DO His Word. As He Says in all Scripture. "Be DOERS and not just HEARERS" ....
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I have a question. If Paul's instruction to the Corinthian church that women should keep silent in church and ask their husbands at home was to be applied to the Christian churches in general, and not specifically to the Corinthians, then why did he support Philip's four daughters prophesying in church?

I would imagine that Philip's 4 daughters were prophesying with their hair covered and that the injunction "to keep silent" was a general injunction concerning public teaching, leadership etc. and not in regards to their exercising their ministry.


And if he outlawed women having leadership role in a church, why didn't he tell Lydia (Acts 16:40) that if she continue running a church in her home, she was being false and contravening Scripture?

Women are part of the body of Christ and they should be able to exercise their gifts. I actually believe a lot this stuff was taking place in an informal way like at the dinner table etc.


And if he outlawed women having leadership role in a church, why didn't he tell Lydia (Acts 16:40) that if she continue running a church in her home, she was being false and contravening Scripture?

It was quite common for people in the early to donate their homes for Christian services, host ministers in their homes etc.and others support the Body of Christ with their hospitality.


But the short side of this what your asking about would be called "Divine Economy".


"The basic meaning of the word is "handling" or "disposition" or "management" or more literally "housekeeping" of a thing, usually assuming or implying good or prudent handling (as opposed to poor handling) of the matter at hand. In short, economia is discretionary deviation from the letter of the law in order to adhere to the spirit of the law and charity. This is in contrast to legalism, or akribia (Greek: ακριβεια)—strict adherence to the letter of the law of the church.

As such, the word "economy", and the concept attaching to it, are utilized especially with regard to two types of "handling": (a) divine economy, that is, God's "handling" or "management" of the fallen state of the world and of mankind—the arrangements he made in order to bring about man's salvation after the Fall; and (b) what might be termed pastoral economy (or) ecclesiastical economy, that is, the Church's "handling" or "management" of various pastoral and disciplinary questions, problems, and issues that have arisen through the centuries of Church history.


Economy (religion) - Wikipedia


Below would describe why that economy would exist from my personal theological tradition.

Man, Woman, and the Priesthood of Christ by Kallistos Ware from 'Man, Woman, and Priesthood'
 
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I would imagine that Philip's 4 daughters were prophesying with their hair covered and that the injunction "to keep silent" was a general injunction concerning public teaching, leadership etc. and not in regards to their exercising their ministry.

Women are part of the body of Christ and they should be able to exercise their gifts. I actually believe a lot this stuff was taking place in an informal way like at the dinner table etc.

It was quite common for people in the early to donate their homes for Christian services, host ministers in their homes etc.and others support the Body of Christ with their hospitality.

But the short side of this what your asking about would be called "Divine Economy".

"The basic meaning of the word is "handling" or "disposition" or "management" or more literally "housekeeping" of a thing, usually assuming or implying good or prudent handling (as opposed to poor handling) of the matter at hand. In short, economia is discretionary deviation from the letter of the law in order to adhere to the spirit of the law and charity. This is in contrast to legalism, or akribia (Greek: ακριβεια)—strict adherence to the letter of the law of the church.

As such, the word "economy", and the concept attaching to it, are utilized especially with regard to two types of "handling": (a) divine economy, that is, God's "handling" or "management" of the fallen state of the world and of mankind—the arrangements he made in order to bring about man's salvation after the Fall; and (b) what might be termed pastoral economy (or) ecclesiastical economy, that is, the Church's "handling" or "management" of various pastoral and disciplinary questions, problems, and issues that have arisen through the centuries of Church history.


Economy (religion) - Wikipedia

Below would describe why that economy would exist from my personal theological tradition.

Man, Woman, and the Priesthood of Christ by Kallistos Ware from 'Man, Woman, and Priesthood'
No doubt your points are valid, but we have to be careful about reading into the Bible what is not actually there.

I would have no doubt that Philip's daughters operated their prophetic gift under their father's leadership and mentoring, so they would have been well within the parameters of the woman's role in the church.

But all the Luke say is that Lydia opened her home to Paul and his companions after Paul shared the gospel with her at the riverside. I think that Paul referred to "the church that is in Lydia's home" somewhere in his letters, probably somewhere in Philippians, seeing that her home was in Philippi.

You point is valid about everything being done an informal basis. That was the nature of the early church for a long time when, in the environment when Christians were badly persecuted, that Christian meetings were held in believers' homes.

It was only after Constantine made Christianity the state religion that they were able to public meetings and purpose-built premises - in many cases pagan temples were closed to pagan worship and adapted to Christian worship. Then, a "professional" clergy appeared, ritual and ceremony replaced the direct leading of the Spirit in services, congregations were reduced to being passive listeners while the guy with the robes did all the "ministry".

As things went on, congregations were happy with the one-man-band performer at the front, because like my wife who gets me to drive on the motorway because she doesn't like it, says, "Why bark if I have a dog to bark for me?"
 
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Yes, but only in the same situations where men should also be silent. So, basically, there are times for silence, and there are times for not being silent. The Liturgy invites us through these rhythms of silence and sound as we--all of us, with no distinction--come before the God of Heaven and Earth around His precious gifts of Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Good:
=====================
Note: slavery became more common AFTER the civil war, and worse.
Also: There are plenty of available sermons or studies showing that the Bible is Truth, no matter where or when anyone lives.

Well, I have not read every post so if I repeat- please excuse me. But let up ost the passages in question:

1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is for the church not for everyday life. So in the church women are not allowed to hold teaching positions over men.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Now many say this was just a cultural thing or something for corinth only. Well the question to be asked- were the saved women of Corinth so carnal that they could not even offer any words of wisdom like other churches supposedly had women do?

Paul in 1 Cor. 11 commanded women to worship with their heads covered and men uncovered. If the covering is hair- then any man who is not bald is not worshiping God!

He closes that thought in verse 16 this way:

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

He makes it clear it is not a cultural but spiritual thing that needs to be obeyed in the churches of God!
 
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I have a question. If Paul's instruction to the Corinthian church that women should keep silent in church and ask their husbands at home was to be applied to the Christian churches in general, and not specifically to the Corinthians, then why did he support Philip's four daughters prophesying in church?

“The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak,” (1 (Corinthians 14:34)

There are three views concerning women being silent in church:
  1. It is a permanent God-ordained order since the beginning of the world. Churches that believe this won't let women say anything, but they usually compromise by letting them sing, pray, and suggest hymns.
  2. It was a temporary cultural order required in the Church at that time only. People who believe this are usually women who want to share equal authority with men, and churches that want a feminine perspective from the pulpit.
  3. It referred to the evaluation process conducted by leaders who judged, interpreted, corrected and (when necessary) rebuked, exercising authority over other contributors. Women were not to take part in that particular process.
With each of these views there are pros and cons. In the case of the first view, the text seems to be explicit. However, on the ‘con’ side, it overlooks other scriptures as you say. When this is considered, it becomes difficult to maintain a ‘total silence’ argument.

In the case of the second view, a strong ‘pro’ verse is offered from Galatians 3:28. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” However, the above verse concerns our adoption into God’s family. Stretching the privilege to the subject of public speaking is somewhat moot.

The third view takes into account the context of disorder in the Corinthian worship service. The congregation was fighting and disagreeing, and wives were weighing in alongside their husbands. Wives fighting on behalf of husbands is forbidden in Moses law. However, on the ‘con’ side, we might argue that we are under the New Covenant now.

At this point it may be worth noticing that women were not the only ones admonished concerning their activity in the assembly; on several occasions men were told to keep silent also. The most obvious rebuke was to those who spoke aloud in ‘tongues’ without bothering to interpret for the edification of people listening. (1 Cor. 14:28) Of course, this may not be of interest to those who hold a cessationist interpretation of spiritual gifts today. But it is significant nevertheless, because some modern commentators have complained that St. Paul unfairly favoured men. He didn’t. He was concerned about disorder in the church at Corinth right across the board - as it affected everyone.

Just to sum up my thoughts on the matter: I think we should make a distinction between women 'speaking' and women 'exercising authority.' A feminine touch to sharing the gospel can only add blessing to the churches ministry IMO. However exercising authority belongs to the brethren.
 
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Well, I have not read every post so if I repeat- please excuse me. But let up ost the passages in question:

1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

This is for the church not for everyday life. So in the church women are not allowed to hold teaching positions over men.

We ARE the church.
We are the church if we are gathered together, studying the Bible, worshipping, having fellowship - and the Lord is with us. Whether that gathering is in someone's house, a school, a cafe or in the middle of a field; that is church.
Are you saying that women cannot lead Bible studies, even in their own homes? Or apply for teaching jobs in Bible colleges?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

What law?
We are not under law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Which suggests that women were asking questions in the services and disrupting worship, rather than waiting til they got home to ask their husbands about the matter.
Why would Paul have said that otherwise - unless it was what was happening and was a problem?

Now many say this was just a cultural thing or something for corinth only. Well the question to be asked- were the saved women of Corinth so carnal that they could not even offer any words of wisdom like other churches supposedly had women do?

No, the clue is in the words "if they want to enquire about anything, let them ask their husbands at home", 1 Corinthians 14:35 - i.e don't ask questions in the middle of the service.

Paul in 1 Cor. 11 commanded women to worship with their heads covered

He said when they pray and prophesy they should cover their heads, 1 Corinthians 11:5.
So women were praying and prophesying during worship - yet Paul was also apparently telling them to be silent??

If the covering is hair- then any man who is not bald is not worshiping God!

Any man who is not bald is not worshipping??

This passage says it is a disgrace for a man to have long hair, (how long is 'long'?) and to worship with anything on his head (tell that to Bishops and Catholic priests).
Strangely enough, no one ever talks about these verses - they are just quick to tell women what THEY should be doing. (That's not addressed to you, personally; just an observation.)

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

He makes it clear it is not a cultural but spiritual thing that needs to be obeyed in the churches of God!

No, he's saying that is is the custom in the various churches; not that it is a command from God and therefore must be obeyed in all the churches for all time and in any culture.
There is a big difference between the words "this is our custom ..." and the words "this is a command that needs to be obeyed always."
 
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We ARE the church.
We are the church if we are gathered together, studying the Bible, worshipping, having fellowship - and the Lord is with us. Whether that gathering is in someone's house, a school, a cafe or in the middle of a field; that is church.
Are you saying that women cannot lead Bible studies, even in their own homes? Or apply for teaching jobs in Bible colleges?



What law?
We are not under law.



Which suggests that women were asking questions in the services and disrupting worship, rather than waiting til they got home to ask their husbands about the matter.
Why would Paul have said that otherwise - unless it was what was happening and was a problem?



No, the clue is in the words "if they want to enquire about anything, let them ask their husbands at home", 1 Corinthians 14:35 - i.e don't ask questions in the middle of the service.



He said when they pray and prophesy they should cover their heads, 1 Corinthians 11:5.
So women were praying and prophesying during worship - yet Paul was also apparently telling them to be silent??



Any man who is not bald is not worshipping??

This passage says it is a disgrace for a man to have long hair, (how long is 'long'?) and to worship with anything on his head (tell that to Bishops and Catholic priests).
Strangely enough, no one ever talks about these verses - they are just quick to tell women what THEY should be doing. (That's not addressed to you, personally; just an observation.)



No, he's saying that is is the custom in the various churches; not that it is a command from God and therefore must be obeyed in all the churches for all time and in any culture.
There is a big difference between the words "this is our custom ..." and the words "this is a command that needs to be obeyed always."

Women in the church cannot lead Bible studies where men are seated- No! Paul made that clear.

I can't answer to bible Colleges. They were unknown until much much later, but I would opine that women should not be teaching men in the church. If we consider a bible College an arm of the church- then no!

From Timothy:

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

As for the word custom- it does not mean a willy nilly idea that they gave to some and not others.

Paul said they had no such custom which is a practice. SO Paul was saying He had no other practice and neither did the churches of God have any other practice!

It has only been arecent event that women stopped having a head covering in church and that women became preachers and pastors.
 
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Women in the church cannot lead Bible studies where men are seated- No! Paul made that clear.

No, Paul didn't say that at all.

I can't answer to bible Colleges. They were unknown until much much later, but I would opine that women should not be teaching men in the church.

Again, WE are the church.

From Timothy:

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Yes - and how many people teach on this verse, or criticise men for NOT holding up holy hands, or for being angry and having doubts? In my experience, verses like this are conveniently overlooked while folk attack the women.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

If it's wrong for women to wear gold, why do we exchange gold wedding rings in church?
As for "costly array"; how costly is costly?

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Absolutely. Everyone should learn in silence; if you're talking, you won't hear anything.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Yes, but what does that verse MEAN?
1. That Paul did not allow a woman to teach? Why did he allow Priscilla to teach Apollos then? And anyway, Paul's not around now.
2. How can a woman usurp (grab violently by force) authority from a man, when ALL authority is from Jesus, Matthew 28:19, and other people recognise and freely accept the authority that he gives? When I trained as a preacher I had a male tutor, a male Minister, a male Superintendent and the Chair of District, and even President of the Conference, (like the Archbishop of Canterbury) were men. All agreed that this was the call that GOD had given to me, and allowed and commissioned me to do it. At the service, the congregation were asked if they would accept my ministry, and all said 'yes'. Authority that is given by God and freely accepted by others, cannot be snatched.
3. How, and where, does that verse say "and this is a command from God that no woman be allowed to preach his word today"?

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Being formed first is not, on its own, an argument. Dogs were formed before men; so?

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Yes, Eve was deceived - because she didn't know what God had said. Adam was given a direct command by God; Eve hadn't been created at that point, and we are not told that God directly told her in the same way.
That's why Paul said, "LET women learn ....", so that they would not be deceived as Eve was.

As for the word custom- it does not mean a willy nilly idea that they gave to some and not others.

Paul said they had no such custom which is a practice. SO Paul was saying He had no other practice and neither did the churches of God have any other practice!

No, they may not have done THEN - it doesn't mean it has to be the case for us today. Whatever IT refers to; it's clearly not that women shouldn't be allowed to proclaim God's word because even Jesus allowed that, and Paul allowed them to prophesy.

It has only been arecent event that women stopped having a head covering in church and that women became preachers and pastors.

I wouldn't have said that 1760 was recent, myself, but maybe it's all relative.
Both John Wesley and William Booth allowed women to preach. John Wesley acknowledged that his own mother was the forerunner of female preachers in the Methodist church.
I don't know whether Catherine of Siena preached in the 1300's, but she was asked by the Pope to teach his cardinals and to help him reorganise the church.
Hilda of Whitby founded a monastery for both monks and nuns in 657 AD and became its abbess.
 
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