James Disproves Free Will

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

Clete said:
I never claimed to be ignoring anyone. It is me who's been ignored. Pay attention!

Try breathing through your nose.

Saying it doesn't make it so!

See, watch this....

Free will debunks determinism! All one needs to do is to study it!

Convinced?!

No? Why not? Are you suggesting that making a bald claim doesn't count as an actual argument? Surely not!

Believe as you wish, dude. Your tude tells me all I need to know. On ignore you go.

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

Clete said:
I never claimed to be ignoring anyone. It is me who's been ignored. Pay attention!

Try breathing through your nose.

Saying it doesn't make it so!

See, watch this....

Free will debunks determinism! All one needs to do is to study it!

Convinced?!

No? Why not? Are you suggesting that making a bald claim doesn't count as an actual argument? Surely not!

See Hitchens's razor

Lonnie Owens · Dec 21, 2019

1Reformedman said:
That is called a baseless assertion. Now, just because I refuse to educate others when they have the internet and libraries to do theier own homework does not by any stretch of the imagination mean I dont understand the difference.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!
Trins will come up with anything in order to deflect lol... If you can't answer the questions then don't comment...lol

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

Lonnie Owens said:
Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!
Trins will come up with anything in order to deflect lol... If you can't answer the questions then don't comment...lol

more of your baseless assertions. Later dude

Lonnie Owens · Dec 21, 2019

as I thought.. and I thought you were a decent person....

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

JacksBratt said:
What if...

OK... so.. when we leave this earth... Is anyone going to be able to say to Christ "well, you made me that way, I had no chance"? I doubt it. All will be judged as to whether they believed in Christ and accepted Him .........or...........rejected Him.... Their choice for their eternity.

One of the questions raised about death is whether Christians face a divine judgment and if so, why and what kind? It is a good question because on the one hand we believe that our acceptance with God is based on the free gift of grace purchased by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ and that this acceptance is attained through faith not earned through meritorious works. But on the other hand the New Testament frequently teaches that believers will be judged by God along with all men and that both our eternal life and our varied rewards will be “according to works.”

For example, Romans 2:6-8 says, “God will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”

This passage teaches that eternal life will be “according to works.” But this does not mean that it will be earned by works. In Romans 6:23 Paul says, “The free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.” Eternal life is not earned. It is free. “By grace are you saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8). Faith receives eternal life freely as a gift. There is no way it can be earned as a wage through works.

But eternal life is rendered according to our works. This is made plain not only in Romans 2:6-8 but also in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:6,21; Ephesians 5:5; James 2:14-26; Hebrews 12:14; Matthew 7:24-27; Luke 10:25-28 and many other places that teach the necessity of obedience in the life of faith and in the inheritance of eternal life.

So we must learn to make the biblical distinction between earning eternal life on the basis of works, (which the Bible does not teach!) and receiving eternal life according to works (which the Bible does teach!). Believers in Christ will stand before the judgment seat of God and will be accepted into eternal life on the basis of the shed blood of Jesus. But our free acceptance by grace through faith will be according to works.

“According to works” means God will take the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) and the “good deeds” by which we let the light of our faith shine (Matthew 5:16), and he will accept them as corroborating evidence of our faith. His sentence of acquittal will not be because we are not guilty. It will be because Christ bore our guilt. The place of our works at the judgment is to serve as corroborating evidence that we did indeed put our trust in Christ. Therefore when we are acquitted and welcomed into the kingdom it will not be earned by works but it will be according to works. There will be an “accord” or an agreement between our salvation and our works.

Final Judgment According to Works

Palmfever · Dec 21, 2019

Dave L said:
“For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.” James 3:7–12 (KJV 1900)

Not even close to being a valid argument. "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing." In fact it argues against total depravity.

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

Cis.jd said:
I don't understand how my previous answer still doesn't match the question. Yesm i and everyone else (except for maybe mentally sick people) have the ability to obey (or disobey) murder. This post of yours is odd, you just rephrased someone else's post..and it's oddly phrased as well.

its not about obeying or disobeying a moral view about Murder its that NO command, such as "DO NOT MURDER", ever gives you the ability to obey the command.

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

Palmfever said:
Not even close to being a valid argument. "Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing." In fact it argues against total depravity.

Your claim that the verse argues against Total depravity is nothing more than a baseless assertion. To substantiate the claim, show how the verse argues against total depravity. Oh and before you do show us that, please show us that you understand what total depravity is.

Lonnie Owens · Dec 21, 2019

1Reformedman said:
its not about obeying or disobeying a moral view about Murder its that NO command, such as "DO NOT MURDER", ever gives you the ability to obey the command.

no a commandment gives no one the ability to obey it it is our free will that allows us to chose to obey it or not... The Holy Spirit will guide us to obeying it but in the end it is our choice, born again or not..

Cis.jd · Dec 21, 2019

1Reformedman said:
its not about obeying or disobeying a moral view about Murder its that NO command, such as "DO NOT MURDER", ever gives you the ability to obey the command.

right! There is no command that just grants/gives us the ability to obey it because we have that ability already, which is called free will.

1Reformedman · Dec 21, 2019

Cis.jd said:
right! There is no command that just grants/gives us the ability to obey it because we have that ability already, which is called free will.

Tell me friend, what abilities does free will give you? You're conflating Human natural moral ability with human will, again.

Cis.jd · Dec 21, 2019

1Reformedman said:
Tell me friend, what abilities does free will give you? You're conflating Human natural moral ability with human will, again.

Free will is my ability to decide to obey a command or not based on whatever reasons. As you said, no command gives me the ability to obey (or disobey), you are spot on, I already have that ability to decide and it's called free will.

Mark Quayle · Dec 21, 2019

Clete said:
The only sense in which a Calvinist would concede that we choose is if he is doing so with an altered definition of the word "choose". This happens quite often. Calvinists have a whole list of words that they've altered the meaning of. Words that in common parlance mean one thing, mean something altogether different in the Calvinist theological lexicon of the English language. And I'm not kidding! I bet there's a hundred different things that a normal person cannot have a meaningful discussion with a Calvinist about without confusion being the result unless a great deal of time is spent defining terms.

This I agree with! The Calvinist has a LOT different idea of what, for example, "free will" means. But you make the mistake of assuming it is the Calvinist that is deviant in definitions. "Usual" is not the same as "normal". I note in particular, the assumption of the normal person, that they are in control of their lives.

Qwertyui0p · Dec 21, 2019

I disagree. This verse doesn't necessarily imply that we don't have free will. We do have free will, we just make bad choices. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign, and humans have free will. From our finite perspective we don't have the capacity to fully understand how these can both be true, but God knows a lot more than we do. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, but if we don't have free will, how can we be held accountable?

Mark Quayle · Dec 21, 2019

Cis.jd said:
You are confused as to what is being discussed about free will. Free will is the choice to believe in God, obeying laws and everything just comes right after. Even when these commandments are being obeyed because of God who is working inside of me, the fact of the matter is that I fully accepted him out of my own will. The person has to make a decision first out of his/her own realization. God can't work with in someone if that person is not willing to, all of that requires free will first. That is the point of the arguments everyone else has been making.

God can't do what??? He can make a pagan man prophesy the truth. He can take the heart of a mind-vacant drug abuser and revive it, and that without asking permission. He can enlighten whomever he pleases to, and save some of those, and reject others. He can can blind whomever he chooses by presenting them with truth, or by feeding them their own happy lies. He can put his Holy Spirit into the most filthy of us, completely changing us, directly producing our faith. The faith that lasts can ONLY be done by God, not by free will. Since when does God ask for us to convert ourselves, and become clean before he can work in us?

Even your sentence, "The person has to make a decision first out of his/her own realization." lacks any mention of how that realization comes. What makes you think God is hands off there? Even the most Arminian of my acquaintances at least admit to the fact that God brings a person to the point of belief --that the person can not do that for himself.

Lonnie Owens · Dec 21, 2019

The thing is those who like to attack you are those who cannot validate what they are trying to say... Psychology 101... it's a fight or flight reaction.. you attack so it doesn't show you have no clue what you are talking about..

Mark Quayle · Dec 21, 2019

Qwertyui0p said:
I disagree. This verse doesn't necessarily imply that we don't have free will. We do have free will, we just make bad choices. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign, and humans have free will. From our finite perspective we don't have the capacity to fully understand how these can both be true, but God knows a lot more than we do. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, but if we don't have free will, how can we be held accountable?

Once again, define what you mean by "free will". To what degree is it free? Certainly only God is completely self-determining, sovereign. But that implies then that he is sovereign over everything else.

One of my relatives loved to say that the sign over the gate of Heaven reads, "Whosoever Will" from this side, but once we get inside and look back, we see it says, "Chosen From The Foundation Of The Earth". I disagree. The Bible tells us how whosoever will. My relative would say that there is a logical and Biblical tension between predestination and free will, yet demanded that free will implied God was hands-off as far as that final decision to believe.

I love the picture of what happened to me. Sure I made decisions --many decisions-- but I can remember the day I suddenly realized that I believed, and could not deny, the Gospel of Christ. So I can't say I was saved when I accepted him into my heart. Did I open the door when he called out? Most certainly I did. My will was completely involved in the matter, but he is the one who changed my will.

Neither my integrity, intelligence, knowledge and understanding, strength of will, nor anything else that is only me, is capable of making such a decision. I used to think, (and yes at this point I am sure I was already regenerated), that God was what made my decision real (and to a point, I was right about that). Now I see it wasn't my decision to believe, but his decision to change me, that caused my belief. I have no confidence in my ability for such a thing.

Mark Quayle · Dec 21, 2019

Lonnie Owens said:
so once you are born again you don't sin???

C'mon, Lonnie. You know he didn't say --nor imply that. Don't infer it.

Mark Quayle · Dec 21, 2019

Clete said:
I'm not sure I understand the question. How could it witness against me?

If I could not choose my actions then when I do wrongly, it wouldn't mean anything to call it sin. It wouldn't even make any sense to call it "acting wrongly".

If I understand you point correctly, and I suck at reading minds so this may be entirely off the point you're actually making, you seem to think that because we cannot keep righteousness up over the long term that we can't ever do anything right at all. I've never understood why anyone would think in such terms. It's the equivalent of telling a motor cyclist that because you'll eventually crash your bike, you can't ever get down the street without falling over. Or assuming that because shoe laces often come undone that they can't ever be tied in the first place. It just doesn't make any sense. Just because I have a fallen nature that is bent away from God and toward sin, does not mean that it's a sin for me to love my wife or that it is impossible for me to love my wife in the first place. On the contrary, I couldn't love my wife if I was incapable of rejecting her. Love is a choice, by definition. If I cannot choose, I cannot love or do any other moral thing for that matter.

Romans 7:15-25

Clete

Clete, I don't say you don't choose your actions. You keep on with this, as though I deny choice. I don't deny choice.

Let me try to put it this way, though it feels a bit dramatic or literary or something: Choice against God is choice without God. Choice for God is choice with God. And, yes, choice to sin is real enough, for sure, resulting in real punishment either against the sinner, or against Christ. But good only comes from God. We do not have the ability to work good outside of God working it in us. The Messiah is God with us, not just in history.

James Disproves Free Will

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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