Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

sovereigngrace · Dec 21, 2019

thomas_t said:
I'm not fighting with scripture.
My opinion does not contradict the inspired text.
I only claim to be bullied when you post too much pages a day. So that I can't deal with them for lack of time.
There is no error in my interpretation of the text that you've shown.
I don't twist scripture.

Galatians 6:16 can't be used for your theory cause it contains the "and": You (the Christians) AND the Israel of God). Your version has the wrong order of words... use KJV please.
Didn't we discuss it before, also?

But there you bring a new argument!
"kai" could be translated as "even" you say.
Revelations 14:6 you say shows that kai means "even"... but it could be easily translated with "and" also.
Individuals AND nations. Why not. Would nicely fit in what I said before ;-).
If it hinges on one verse only (Matthew 21:5 in this case), in which you could possibly translate with "even", I reject this use. Please note that kai has 9000+ occurances in the Bible, it's always "and" Greek Concordance: καὶ (kai) -- 9079 Occurrences
I would even go as far as to say... if kai has 9000 occurances for and and Mt 21,5 seems to be the only verse in which it could be translated differently... I would tend to translate this verse equally to the rest of the occurances meaning that Jesus effectively had 2 donkeys.

Today I've had some time, that's true, but tomorrow I won't have much time, please don't reply using more than 2 pages. Please be concise.

Thomas

Please do not tell other posters what they can do or not do. Take time to reply instead of complaining or claiming pressure.

Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any merit or virtue before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by passages like Galatians 6. The reading declares, “And as many as walk according to this rule” (what rule?) – the non-racial new birth experience, – then “peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Paul places a blessing upon all who “walk according to this rule” – all who are conformed to this standard. As Christopher W. Cowan puts: “All who have experienced the new creation in Christ will have lives that manifest conformity to it” (Context Is Everything: “The Israel of God” in Galatians 6:16). Manifestly, Paul only had one company in mind: the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

The verb interpreted “walk according to” here[Gr. stoicheō] means to keep in step with, to conform to or to follow. Paul uses the same word in Galatians 5:25: “If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk [Gr. stoicheō] in the Spirit.” Paul’s approval in Galatians 6:16 is placed upon all those who live their lives in strict conformity with the rule/standard he has just proclaimed.

The Bible makes clear, only the second birth can create “a new creature” – nothing else. That is why Paul commences by saying, in Galatians 6:16, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Galatians 6:15). Those who subject themselves to this divine decree (namely, giving their life to Christ), will, irrespective of race, experience the peace of God and the mercy of heaven.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.

Excellent point.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

Thomas T said:
When I say "You are not worth being called a mother. DNA doesn't count. You act horribly. You are a pretender not a mother!!!" would you feel insulted?

What if I'm an adoptive mother - and not a birth mother - and have given my all to raising my child? DNA wouldn't matter - would it? I'd still consider myself the child's mother. And yes, I'd be insulted, if you'd dismiss adoptive mothers as mothers and called them "pretenders" (for the record, I've never said that I have a son - I had given a comparison in a post a while ago).

However, this doesn't prove your point at all. In this comparison, I see it as an insult to God....for not recognizing His spiritual children.

jgr · Dec 21, 2019

thomas_t said:
As I said: those near to the Lord's appearance in that Psalm. It doesn't say "all hills of the earth" it said "the" hills. Do you expect David to say "some hills" when wanted to convey the hills under his feet?

So you believe that David literally saw God melt hills?

If so, then you must also believe that David literally saw God bow the heavens, and come down.

Psalm 18
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

jgr said:
So you believe that David literally saw God melt hills?

If so, then you must also believe that David literally saw God bow the heavens, and come down.

Psalm 18
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

Good point, JGR. Don't forget about these parts of Psalm 18 as well. If a person is going to be literal in their interpretation, certainly they'd need to remain consistent - so God would have to have been revealed as a rock, a shield, and a fortress:

Psalm 18 -
My God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,

my shield, and the horn of my salvation,

my stronghold.

David also would have seen this literally. If this were literal, I'd expect others would have seen this as well:

Psalm 18:7-10 -
He burned with anger.8Smoke rose from His nostrils,

and consuming fire came from His mouth;

glowing coals flamed forth.9He parted the heavens and came down

with dark clouds under His feet.10He mounted a cherub and flew;

He soared on the wings of the wind.

Douggg · Dec 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The Pharisees were correct in seeing that the Old Testament prophesied of some sort of restoration for Israel. Jesus never denied that - it was their expectation that He denied.

The kingdom of Israel is not the Kingdom of God. By becoming a Christian, a person does not become a Jew. Nor has the church, which inherits the Kingdom of God, become the kingdom of Israel.

mkgal1 said:
Jesus and the prophets were speaking of a spiritual restoration.

Jesus is speaking (in red) to the disciples as he is about to ascend to heaven,

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

_______________________________________________

May 15, 1948, in the end times, latter days.

__________________________________________________

Israel, Jews, still have not received the Kingdom of God. That will happen in the middle of the 7 years, when Satan is cast down to earth having a time, times, half time left.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Douggg · Dec 21, 2019

keras said:
Ezekiel isn't referring to the Jewish State of Israel, the people who have wrongfully taken that name.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

May 14, 1948, in the end times, the latter days.

keras said:
Proved by Ezekiel 38:11....a people living undefended, without walls.....
This obviously doesn't relate to the current situation.

without walls as their defense... Trump plan deal of the century, maybe. Will have to see.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Does not apply to non-blood descendants of Jacob, who's name was changed to Israel.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

Douggg said:
The kingdom of Israel is not the Kingdom of God. By becoming a Christian, a person does not become a Jew. Nor has the church, which inherits the Kingdom of God, become the kingdom of Israel.

The story that begins with the Israelites is that God is making a Holy Nation from them. Out of the Israelites - Christ Jesus was born. From the very beginning, when those Old Testament prophecies were given, God’s original intent (as I see it, anyway) was that they spoke of coming spiritual realities. This is why the NT writers tell us that the entire world of Israel was typological. It was but a foreshadowing of the “reality” of the coming better things (Colossians 2:14)

Exodus 19:6 ~ And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites.”

1 Peter 2:9 ~ But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Douggg said:
Jesus is speaking (in red) to the disciples as he is about to ascend to heaven,

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Israel = assembly of the People of God

sovereigngrace · Dec 21, 2019

thomas_t said:
Replacement theology, namely calling the Jew a pretender and Christians the "true Jews", is an aggressive mind set. It's attacking their identity. You can't just leave this unanswered!
You said you have sons. Please allow me to make a comparison?
When I say "You are not worth being called a mother. DNA doesn't count. You act horribly. You are a pretender not a mother!!!" would you feel insulted?

Dispensationalists would be better advised to stop hurling this deceptive and illusionary charge against brethren who by conviction oppose the very concept alleged.

Some more extreme elements within Premillennialism have even accused those who believe that the New Testament Church is the sole continuation of the Israel of Israel in the Old Testament as being anti-Semitic. When they hurl such a grave charge, they instantly lose the debate. No one is going to seriously engage with a fellow believer who is determined to deliberately misrepresent and unfairly insult them.

We should remember, the Bible teaches that Jew and Gentile alike who trust Christ are completely equal today, being part of the one unitary trans-national body. The saints in the New Testament are therefore harmoniously connected to the saints in the Old Testament. This is the only people that carry the favor and blessing of the Lord. The term “Replacement Theology” is therefore plainly a misnomer, and should be rejected by all fair-minded Bible-believing students.

Contrary to what Dispensationalists argue, the New Testament Church is not a Gentile organization. The Church is a multi-national spiritual community of believers which embraces all nationalities equally, both Jew and Gentile. Remember, our Savior was Jewish. His mission was focused on “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6 and 15:24). Christ’s first followers were all Jewish. His apostles were all Jewish. The early move of God in the gospels and the book of Acts was among the Jewish people. The New Testament was then written by Jews.

For “Replacement Theology” to be a valid charge against those who believe Christ has only ever had one elect people, Israel would have to be God’s chosen people in their current rebellious state. This is a scriptural impossibility. God’s blessings have never been tied to a people of unbelief but rather to a people of faith. So, when we look at both the faithful in the Old and New Testaments we are looking at the same unitary people, only larger in scale.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

Douggg said:
Jesus is speaking (in red) to the disciples as he is about to ascend to heaven,

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The outpouring of the Spirit was a Last Days sign of the full establishment of the kingdom at the Day of the Lord.

The promise of the Spirit in Joel 2:28 was the promise of the Spirit for the last days establishment of the kingdom

Joel 2:28 ~ And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

In Matthew 3, John’s promise that the Messiah would baptize with the Spirit was another way of saying “the kingdom of heaven has drawn near.” Also, from what I understand...... the promise of Acts 1 is the same promise of Matthew 3. Therefore, since John made the promise of the Spirit well before any imagined “postponement” of the kingdom (as futurists believe) this verifies that the promise of the Spirit in Acts 1 was indeed linked with the inauguration of the eschaton and the impending establishment of the kingdom.

In other words, the kingdom was near in Matthew 3, and the promise of the Spirit found there was part of the promise and indication that the kingdom was near. But, in Acts 1, when Jesus told the disciples to go into Jerusalem to await the Spirit, they remembered John’s promise that the Messiah would baptize with the Spirit! Thus, Acts 1, with the re-affirmation of the imminent out-pouring of the Spirit, is a powerful affirmation that the kingdom message of John was now even nearer than before (to those in John's day).

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

From Kurt Simmons (the author of this book):

It is not the political restoration of Israel the prophets spoke to, but the spiritual restoration of man in Christ.

Douggg · Dec 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Out of the Israelites - Christ Jesus was born.

So you voted in the poll thread on who is the woman in Revelation 12 - as israel?

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Douggg · Dec 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The outpouring of the Spirit was a Last Days sign of the full establishment of the kingdom at the Day of the Lord.

Ezekiel 40:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

_______________________________________________

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

___________________________________________________
near future.... following Gog/Magog, followed by the 7 years, followed by Armageddon, followed by Jesus's return.

Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

Douggg said:
So you voted in the poll thread on who is the woman in Revelation 12 - as israel?

I don't know if I even voted in that poll. Right now I believe:

Woman = [1] Old Testament Israel (i.e. the faithful remnant among the Israelites); and [2] later God’s people, the remnant among the nations, after Christ’s death and resurrection.

I've only begun studying Revelation.

Douggg · Dec 21, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I don't know if I even voted in that poll. Right now I believe:

Woman = [1] Old Testament Israel (i.e. the faithful remnant among the Israelites); and [2] later God’s people, the remnant among the nations, after Christ’s death and resurrection

Revelation 12, the first five verses are historic to identify the woman in the rest of the chapter as Israel.

Revelation 12:6 is end times, the first half of the 7 years. Then, the war in the second heaven as Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, Revelation 12:7-9.

At which time, as the great tribulation is in its early stages, Israel, the Jews, turn to Jesus in Revelation 12:10, receive salvation, and the kingdom of our God.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:14, the time, times, half is the second half of the seven years.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

jgr · Dec 21, 2019

Douggg said:
Jesus is speaking (in red) to the disciples as he is about to ascend to heaven,

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The times and seasons are associated with the day of the Lord, which is the end of all things temporal.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

A restored Israelite kingdom is conspicuously absent.

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

Douggg said:
So you voted in the poll thread on who is the woman in Revelation 12 - as israel?

I voted "other" because of how you separated "Israel" from the "Church" when the faithful remnant of the assembly of Israelites was joined together with the faithful Gentiles as one body (True Israel - True spiritual Jerusalem).

jgr · Dec 21, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Dispensationalists would be better advised to stop hurling this deceptive and illusionary charge against brethren who by conviction oppose the very concept alleged.

Some more extreme elements within Premillennialism have even accused those who believe that the New Testament Church is the sole continuation of the Israel of Israel in the Old Testament as being anti-Semitic. When they hurl such a grave charge, they instantly lose the debate. No one is going to seriously engage with a fellow believer who is determined to deliberately misrepresent and unfairly insult them.

We should remember, the Bible teaches that Jew and Gentile alike who trust Christ are completely equal today, being part of the one unitary trans-national body. The saints in the New Testament are therefore harmoniously connected to the saints in the Old Testament. This is the only people that carry the favor and blessing of the Lord. The term “Replacement Theology” is therefore plainly a misnomer, and should be rejected by all fair-minded Bible-believing students.

Contrary to what Dispensationalists argue, the New Testament Church is not a Gentile organization. The Church is a multi-national spiritual community of believers which embraces all nationalities equally, both Jew and Gentile. Remember, our Savior was Jewish. His mission was focused on “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6 and 15:24). Christ’s first followers were all Jewish. His apostles were all Jewish. The early move of God in the gospels and the book of Acts was among the Jewish people. The New Testament was then written by Jews.

For “Replacement Theology” to be a valid charge against those who believe Christ has only ever had one elect people, Israel would have to be God’s chosen people in their current rebellious state. This is a scriptural impossibility. God’s blessings have never been tied to a people of unbelief but rather to a people of faith. So, when we look at both the faithful in the Old and New Testaments we are looking at the same unitary people, only larger in scale.

Our brother BABerean2 has accurately identified the true dispensational source and nature of "Replacement Theology".

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2019

Douggg said:
Ezekiel 40:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

_______________________________________________

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. "The time of the end" isn't the "end of time" (if that's your point). It was the end of the Old Covenant Levitcal priesthood system.

jgr · Dec 21, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Dispensationalists would be better advised to stop hurling this deceptive and illusionary charge against brethren who by conviction oppose the very concept alleged.

Some more extreme elements within Premillennialism have even accused those who believe that the New Testament Church is the sole continuation of the Israel of Israel in the Old Testament as being anti-Semitic. When they hurl such a grave charge, they instantly lose the debate. No one is going to seriously engage with a fellow believer who is determined to deliberately misrepresent and unfairly insult them.

We should remember, the Bible teaches that Jew and Gentile alike who trust Christ are completely equal today, being part of the one unitary trans-national body. The saints in the New Testament are therefore harmoniously connected to the saints in the Old Testament. This is the only people that carry the favor and blessing of the Lord. The term “Replacement Theology” is therefore plainly a misnomer, and should be rejected by all fair-minded Bible-believing students.

Contrary to what Dispensationalists argue, the New Testament Church is not a Gentile organization. The Church is a multi-national spiritual community of believers which embraces all nationalities equally, both Jew and Gentile. Remember, our Savior was Jewish. His mission was focused on “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:5-6 and 15:24). Christ’s first followers were all Jewish. His apostles were all Jewish. The early move of God in the gospels and the book of Acts was among the Jewish people. The New Testament was then written by Jews.

For “Replacement Theology” to be a valid charge against those who believe Christ has only ever had one elect people, Israel would have to be God’s chosen people in their current rebellious state. This is a scriptural impossibility. God’s blessings have never been tied to a people of unbelief but rather to a people of faith. So, when we look at both the faithful in the Old and New Testaments we are looking at the same unitary people, only larger in scale.

The dispensational accusation of "Replacement Theology" is in reality their own racialization of God and His Word, aka "Replacement Biology" (RB).

Likewise, their accusation of "Supersessionism" is in reality also that racialization, aka "Biological Supersessionism" (BS).

Known in combination as "RB/BS".

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

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