By Works FAITH is made PERFECT

Bruce Leiter · Dec 21, 2019

Lulav said:
'Faith Without Works is Dead'

What does this mean to you?

Has your Faith been made perfect?

James wrote quite a bit on this

Faith Without Works Is Dead

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You have to realize that James defines "faith" differently from, say, Paul. James is writing to Jewish Christians who are in danger of wandering away from the true faith in Jesus' one sacrifice to give us true faith by God's amazing grace. Thus, his idea of "faith" is similar to "head knowledge" about God, not the genuine faith that Paul talks about in his letters. Thus, true faith must show itself in actions motivated by our commitment to Jesus Christ as the only way to the Father by the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, the verses you quote and Paul's teachings in Ephesians 2:8-10 agree.

timothyu · Dec 21, 2019

Bruce Leiter said:
Thus, his idea of "faith" is similar to "head knowledge" about God, not the genuine faith that Paul talks about in his letters

Yeah, what would James know.

Bruce Leiter · Dec 21, 2019

timothyu said:
Yeah, what would James know.

James is simply using the word differently than Paul did, so they don't disagree.

friend of · Dec 22, 2019

I think it's in error to put our faith in our works though. Our faith must be grounded in the finished work of our savior.

timothyu · Dec 22, 2019

friend of said:
I think it's in error to put our faith in our works though. Our faith must be grounded in the finished work of our savior.

He did open the doors to the Kingdom but we must still reject the world of man and our works show if we follow the will of the Father rather than of man.

1213 · Dec 22, 2019

redleghunter said:
I think you have it opposite. Romans 4 describes Abraham believed God (faith) and that He reckoned righteousness to him. Paul then goes on to show that Abraham's faithful acts came after this reckoning of God.

I think in that “believed God” means he obeyed God. I think it is in that the same as he was loyal (faithful) to God.

fhansen · Dec 23, 2019

Lulav said:
'Faith Without Works is Dead'

What does this mean to you?

Has your Faith been made perfect?

James wrote quite a bit on this

Faith Without Works Is Dead

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, faith and the works that God has prepared for us to do, as we're under grace, are inseparable, just as justification and sanctification are inseparable.

Cis.jd · Dec 23, 2019

Lulav said:
'Faith Without Works is Dead'

What does this mean to you?

Has your Faith been made perfect?

James wrote quite a bit on this

Faith Without Works Is Dead

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I think it's a practical view. Even in life you can't just believe you will make money, you can't just believe you will get the person to love you, you can't just believe you will get a good career. You have to work as well. You need to have faith so you have the energy to work.

In a christian view, we have many people who believe (and really do) but have committed crimes, harbor unchristian feelings towards others, and many other things. It's kinda wrong that the belief of this person just makes him a better person regardless of his thoughts and actions.

Protestants have to realize that Catholics don't deny faith as important. You can cherry pick many verses of xyz person in the Bible that shows their faith as the main justification but at the same time there are verses that additionally support works.

Dkh587 · Dec 24, 2019

chilehed said:
That's because faith is a work, it's something you do.

I heard a good quote once in line with what you said.

faith works.

DeepWater · Dec 24, 2019

Faith is not made perfect. Faith is faith, and God accepts it to give you His Righteousness.
This is : SALVATION.
Faith does not save you, GOD saves you, thru your faith, as He is the One who starts your salvation IN YOU< and is FAITHFUL to complete it FOR YOU. Philippians 1:6

If anyone is trusting in their Faith, then the are "fallen from Grace", as their Faith has become their savior, in their mind, = Jesus is not longer being TRUSTED to save you or keep you saved.

The paradox is....if you are trusting in your Faith to save you, then real faith in Christ is now become DEAD, because you have substituted faith in CHRIST, for faith IN FAITH.

BBAS 64 · Dec 27, 2019

chilehed said:
That's because faith is a work, it's something you do.

Good Day, Chilehed

Faith is a gift that is (belief) granted Phi 1:29 and is the effective cause; and of the things that you do they are direct results (caused by Faith) and do them by design and are directly purposed by the cause.

In Him.

Bill

chilehed · Dec 27, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Faith is a gift

Of course it is.

The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat, meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah, which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it's about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is Truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "works through charity."

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin, which weakens our will so that it is not truly free. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it of our own free will. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the "obedience of faith". At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.

MDC · Dec 27, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
Both faith in Christ and works in Christ are needed as a part of our salvation. This has been a clear teaching of the Assyrian Church of the East, the pre-Chalcedonian Orthodox Churches (Syriac, Coptic...), Eastern Orthodoxy, the Catholic Church, and today, even many non-denom Christians, too.

The works of Christ merits all of salvation. This is where faith should rest in. Our works merits nothing towards the grounds of salvation. Our works are only the evidence or fruit of being saved.

Danthemailman · Dec 27, 2019

In James 2:21, notice that James did not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteousness, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was “shown to be righteous."

In James 2:22, faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the declaration of his faith in Genesis 15.

timothyu · Dec 27, 2019

Danthemailman said:
When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the declaration of his faith in Genesis 15.

He put God's will before his own. All God ever asks.

BBAS 64 · Dec 29, 2019

chilehed said:
Of course it is.

The Hebrew word aman is translated as “believe”, “trust”, “have faith”, and also “support”, “nourish”, and “make lasting”. A derivative word is omenat, meaning “pillars” or “supports of the door” as in 2 Kings 18:16. Another cognate is emunah, which is “faithfulness” or “trust”, as in Exodus 17:12where God brought victory to Israel as long as Moses would hold his hands up. Aaron and Hur held up his hands so that they “remained emunah until sundown”. All of these illustrate that faith is an action that we take, which is exactly what the Catholic church teaches. Faith is a work, it's about what you DO and not merely about what you believe.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses this by saying that faith is an act of the will in which one turns toward God and away from sin; in which we decide that we will cooperate, with our intellect and will, with the divine grace that God gives us to enable us to comply with the moral law; it is a free response of the human person to the initiative of God; it is a personal adherence of the whole man to the God who reveals himself. It is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is Truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "works through charity."

We are not able to do this work by our own effort because of the effects of original sin, which weakens our will so that it is not truly free. Each and every time we turn toward God and away from sin it is because God gave us at that moment the grace to be able to do it of our own free will. It is completely and totally due to the grace of God, who enables all of us at some point in our lives to perform the work of freely responding to Him by performing the "obedience of faith". At that moment we truly have the choice that Adam had, to submit to God or submit to ourselves, and we only have that choice because of God’s grace.

Good Day,

Thanks for that ... It makes me more assured that I do not belong in the Roman Catholic denomination.... ad willing decide that will never happen.

In Him,

Bikk

friend of · Dec 29, 2019

DeepWater said:
The paradox is....if you are trusting in your Faith to save you, then real faith in Christ is now become DEAD, because you have substituted faith in CHRIST, for faith IN FAITH.

Not really. Scripture says that Faith and Trust are really inseparable. 2 sides of the same coin. If you have real demonstrable Faith in Jesus then you will also invariably be Trusting Him with your soul.

chilehed · Dec 29, 2019

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day,

Thanks for that ... It makes me more assured that I do not belong in the Roman Catholic denomination.... ad willing decide that will never happen.

In Him,

Bikk

Well, I guess if you're dead set against using the definition of faith as the word has been used since before the time of Jesus and the Apostles, or the historical Catholic ideas that faith is a gift of God, that we can't turn away from sin without his gratuitous gift of grace and that we need to obey him...

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