Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

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archarios

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Do "we" need that or would you exclude yourself? Can we be good Christians without having Kalashnikovs pointed at our heads?

I think i understand your meaning. After all, why would we pray for persecution and death and hardship? However, your previous post at #161... how do you expect more people to embrace Bible fundamentalism, sans pastorism/cultural Christianity without persecution?

We in the west are living on a bubble which seems like it is close to bursting. Some people may be fine with the gentle filter of Western Ease sorting out the true Christians from the false, but some of us look at the decadence and boredom of this plastic world and sometimes wish for a sharper blade to test us. We feel like marshmallows rubbing against marshmallows and wish for clearer lines. There is so much compromise, capitulation, and ambiguity especially on the verge of a cultural civil war...
 
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redleghunter

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I think i understand your meaning. After all, why would we pray for persecution and death and hardship? However, your previous post at #161... how do you expect more people to embrace Bible fundamentalism, sans pastorism/cultural Christianity without persecution?

We in the west are living on a bubble which seems like it is close to bursting. Some people may be fine with the gentle filter of Western Ease sorting out the true Christians from the false, but some of us look at the decadence and boredom of this plastic world and sometimes wish for a sharper blade to test us. We feel like marshmallows rubbing against marshmallows and wish for clearer lines. There is so much compromise, capitulation, and ambiguity especially on the verge of a cultural civil war...
I think we have to remember the greatest spread of the Gospel happened during the 1st century Roman Empire Pax Romana.
 
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Al Touthentop

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I think i understand your meaning. After all, why would we pray for persecution and death and hardship? However, your previous post at #161... how do you expect more people to embrace Bible fundamentalism, sans pastorism/cultural Christianity without persecution?

It's already really hard to live a Christian life even without the physical persecution. The problem with the so-called churches is that they don't acknowledge this difficulty because they rarely teach what is required. One of Jesus' most important lessons on becoming a disciple is that one count the cost. If the cost isn't preached, then how will anyone know what that cost is?

The first thing that ought to be discarded, burned, eviscerated, is the "sinners prayer" which so many pastors teach is what saves people. "Say this prayer, and you're saved." The only time you might find that prayer in the Bible is if it has been pasted inside the front cover. The sinners prayer was brought into the "church" in 1939.

There is so much compromise, capitulation, and ambiguity especially on the verge of a cultural civil war...

Agreed. But the way to fix it is to preach the word as it is written. Those who don't are to be judged more harshly than the people they led down the broad path. I get your frustration but God gave us his word and promised it would be effective. Those who teach have to trust that and let the chips fall where they may. We can't make people obey God, proof that man has free will, to the chagrin of even those of us who believe that. It's tempting to want some earthshaking sign from God to wake people up. But it's not effective anyway as Jesus taught us.

Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’
 
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Al Touthentop

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I think we have to remember the greatest spread of the Gospel happened during the 1st century Roman Empire Pax Romana.

Why do we need to remember that? So we can start praying for tyranny and disaster?
 
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redleghunter

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Why do we need to remember that? So we can start praying for tyranny and disaster?
No the apostles freely moved around the safe Roman roads and shipping lanes to bring the Gospel to the reaches of the Empire. Until 64AD the only persecution to Christians were Jewish religious officials. In many cases it was Roman pagans who came to the aid of Paul.

After the Great Roman Fire of 64AD Nero called for the first Christian persecution sanctioned by Roman governance.
 
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Cimorene

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It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire to learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

It would seem to me that inclusive Christianity is becoming so inclusive they'd openly invite the devil in if he weren't already there.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

My generation is the least religious in history already. I come to this forum and I read things like what you wrote and you fill my heart with discouragement. I'm being honest. Christians should centre around CHRIST and stop combatting one another over disagreements. Christians are already the main reason why ppl are fleeing Christianity. Why keep fighting with one another when that's going to make everybody looking on know for absolute sure they want nothing to do with us? It just grows more weariness & distrust, this infighting.
 
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redleghunter

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Christians should centre around CHRIST and stop combatting one another over disagreements
What does this look like to you? Meaning what steps would you propose to get to this state of Christ centered and the stopping of the disagreements?
 
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bling

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Do "we" need that or would you exclude yourself? Can we be good Christians without having Kalashnikovs pointed at our heads?
God is going to help us if we want to be better, like I am sure Job prayed to be better and look what God allowed Job to go through to be better. Watch what you pray for, you might just get it.
I hope I can continue to grow without the need for severe persecution.
 
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Al Touthentop

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My generation is the least religious in history already. I come to this forum and I read things like what you wrote and you fill my heart with discouragement. I'm being honest. Christians should centre around CHRIST and stop combatting one another over disagreements. Christians are already the main reason why ppl are fleeing Christianity. Why keep fighting with one another when that's going to make everybody looking on know for absolute sure they want nothing to do with us? It just grows more weariness & distrust, this infighting.


Centering ourselves around Christ requires us to know his word and what is written.
 
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The Liturgist

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My generation is the least religious in history already. I come to this forum and I read things like what you wrote and you fill my heart with discouragement. I'm being honest. Christians should centre around CHRIST and stop combatting one another over disagreements. Christians are already the main reason why ppl are fleeing Christianity. Why keep fighting with one another when that's going to make everybody looking on know for absolute sure they want nothing to do with us? It just grows more weariness & distrust, this infighting.

I agree.

What does this look like to you? Meaning what steps would you propose to get to this state of Christ centered and the stopping of the disagreements?

We have to love each other even as we admit there are theological disagreements, and we have to differentiate between disagreements we can tolerate, and still have fellowship, for example, the differences between a Lutheran, a Russian Orthodox, a Maronite Catholic, a Baptist and a High Church Anglican, and differences which represent an intolerable departure from normative Christianity, for example, people like Dominic Crossan denying the Resurrection and blasphemously stating, with no evidence, that our Lord decomposed on the Cross. That man, according to the statement of faith of this website, for denying the resurrection, is no Christian, for he cannot accept that “Thou wouldst not suffer Thy Holy One to see corruption,” but you and @Cimorene are undoubtedly Christians, and I sense a deep radiant beauty in your respective Christian lives.

Centering ourselves around Christ requires us to know his word and what is written.

And the easy way to do that is to measure our comprehension around the Nicene Creed / CF Statement of Faith.
 
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Al Touthentop

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And the easy way to do that is to measure our comprehension around the Nicene Creed / CF Statement of Faith.

I prefer the scriptures. Creeds are themselves an attempt to wash out the Gospel. They are never going to encapsulate the whole gospel anyway.

"By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."
 
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The Liturgist

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I prefer the scriptures. Creeds are themselves an attempt to wash out the Gospel. They are never going to encapsulate the whole gospel anyway.

"By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

Right, but the Creed sets apart those who believe in the Scriptures as received by the Universal Church, by Christians throughout history, from people who don’t, like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Oneness Pentecostals or Mormons. If you can agree with the creed, your understanding of Scripture is correct (because the Creed is merely a summary of scripture defining the nature of God, Christ and the Faith. If you don’t believe at me, read it, its at the upper right of the pages on this site, which I was really happy to see when I registered).
 
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Cimorene

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I agree.



We have to love each other even as we admit there are theological disagreements, and we have to differentiate between disagreements we can tolerate, and still have fellowship, for example, the differences between a Lutheran, a Russian Orthodox, a Maronite Catholic, a Baptist and a High Church Anglican, and differences which represent an intolerable departure from normative Christianity, for example, people like Dominic Crossan denying the Resurrection and blasphemously stating, with no evidence, that our Lord decomposed on the Cross. That man, according to the statement of faith of this website, for denying the resurrection, is no Christian, for he cannot accept that “Thou wouldst not suffer Thy Holy One to see corruption,” but you and @Cimorene are undoubtedly Christians, and I sense a deep radiant beauty in your respective Christian lives.



And the easy way to do that is to measure our comprehension around the Nicene Creed / CF Statement of Faith.

This meant a lot to me. Thank u. :)

There's very very very few young ppl who are active members on this forum. Most quickly leave, never to return. The ones who stick around sadly often leave with a bruised faith.
I just got told that one of my last friends my age left. I don't blame the ppl who leave. One girl was told by a Christian adult that her parents didn't love her bc they let her go to a school that is liberal. Another was told by a Christian adult that her mom would spent eternity in hell bc she's a minister, and that none of the ppl that she'd baptized counted as being saved, so they'd all be going to hell, and she'd be going to hell too bc she supported her mom. This is what a man who was like 50 told a 16 yr old girl. She left & never came back. A Swedish girl was told that bc she didn't believe the Earth was only 5000 yrs old, few ppl in Sweden do, that her faith wasn't real. She's left here too long ago but is doing super well in her life. She's a light in Sweden, she's definitely a progressive Christian & that is working at bringing ppl to Christ!!!! It has one of the highest %s of atheists in the world and she's been effective by focusing on Christ himself! On loving your neighbour, caring for the widows, the poor & the sick, practicing compassion, kindness & charity. That gives me so much hope!
 
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The Liturgist

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This meant a lot to me. Thank u. :)

There's very very very few young ppl who are active members on this forum. Most quickly leave, never to return. The ones who stick around sadly often leave with a bruised faith.
I just got told that one of my last friends my age left. I don't blame the ppl who leave. One girl was told by a Christian adult that her parents didn't love her bc they let her go to a school that is liberal. Another was told by a Christian adult that her mom would spent eternity in hell bc she's a minister, and that none of the ppl that she'd baptized counted as being saved, so they'd all be going to hell, and she'd be going to hell too bc she supported her mom. This is what a man who was like 50 told a 16 yr old girl. She left & never came back. A Swedish girl was told that bc she didn't believe the Earth was only 5000 yrs old, few ppl in Sweden do, that her faith wasn't real. She's left here too long ago but is doing super well in her life. She's a light in Sweden, she's definitely a progressive Christian & that is working at bringing ppl to Christ!!!! It has one of the highest %s of atheists in the world and she's been effective by focusing on Christ himself! On loving your neighbour, caring for the widows, the poor & the sick, practicing compassion, kindness & charity. That gives me so much hope!

What that person said to her was horrible. We need to encourage young people to participate on the forum and not threaten them with hellfire and damnation for not believing in our exact interpretation of the Christian faith. What she is doing in Sweden sounds like the lord’s work.

I myself am a strong supporter of the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden, which is independent of the rest of the Church, and is trying to grow things; I love the historic Church of Sweden, but in my opinion, the decline in Christianity in Sweden since WWII is largely the fault of complacency among the Swedish bishops.

Some of the most vital Christian communities in Sweden are refugees from the Middle East, specifically the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and the Syriac Orthodox Church. I believe these three churches are well placed to lead a revival of Christianity in Sweden on account of the persecution they have endured and continue to endure.
 
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redleghunter

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What that person said to her was horrible. We need to encourage young people to participate on the forum and not threaten them with hellfire and damnation for not believing in our exact interpretation of the Christian faith. What she is doing in Sweden sounds like the lord’s work.

I myself am a strong supporter of the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden, which is independent of the rest of the Church, and is trying to grow things; I love the historic Church of Sweden, but in my opinion, the decline in Christianity in Sweden since WWII is largely the fault of complacency among the Swedish bishops.

Some of the most vital Christian communities in Sweden are refugees from the Middle East, specifically the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and the Syriac Orthodox Church. I believe these three churches are well placed to lead a revival of Christianity in Sweden on account of the persecution they have endured and continue to endure.
That was very informative of the churches in Sweden.

I think my pastor nailed three weeks ago in his sermon. We were speaking of walking in the Spirit compassion, kindness and patience. He said some churches solely focus on this end of the spectrum. Then he said upholding the Righteousness of God living holy lives that some churches are on this side of the spectrum. When we need to uphold and proclaim both. I think this is the greatest divide.

And my church is very young. Young couples with a lot of kids, and singles dedicated to church and community ministries.

@Cimorene I read your post as well. It is terrible people were judging your friends instead of conducting dialogue with them.

@The Liturgist I do agree the creeds provide us with what the historic church provided generations after. Indeed we must consider the communion of saints in all our doctrines and test all against the Inspired Word of God the Holy Scriptures.
 
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What that person said to her was horrible. We need to encourage young people to participate on the forum and not threaten them with hellfire and damnation for not believing in our exact interpretation of the Christian faith. What she is doing in Sweden sounds like the lord’s work.

I myself am a strong supporter of the Mission Province of the Church of Sweden, which is independent of the rest of the Church, and is trying to grow things; I love the historic Church of Sweden, but in my opinion, the decline in Christianity in Sweden since WWII is largely the fault of complacency among the Swedish bishops.

Some of the most vital Christian communities in Sweden are refugees from the Middle East, specifically the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, and the Syriac Orthodox Church. I believe these three churches are well placed to lead a revival of Christianity in Sweden on account of the persecution they have endured and continue to endure.

:) This is another nice post!

I probably didn't write my last one very clearly bc I was referring to several different young ppl who've been hurt bc of this "combative" attitude many Christians unfortunately have towards other Christians, who just interpret verses differently and believe differently. Or have different political views. But they all believe in Christ as their saviour which is the one that matters the most. But def. the girl in Sweden gives me the most encouragement!!!!! Bc she had a really really negative experience with Christians but she didn't lose her hope! She just refocused back onto Christ! The more you focus on Christ & not on other Christians the better I think.

Christianity has been on a major decline throughout Europe. Plus Canada & many parts of the US. It's why I think it's especially important that Christians not be combatting one another.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I prefer the scriptures. Creeds are themselves an attempt to wash out the Gospel.

Anyone who knows the historic Creeds and the circumstances surrounding them would know that this statement is patently not true.

The Creeds are the Church's bulwark of faith against the poisonous darts of the devil.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Al Touthentop

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Anyone who knows the historic Creeds and the circumstances surrounding them would know that this statement is patently not true.

The Creeds are the Church's bulwark of faith against the poisonous darts of the devil.

-CryptoLutheran

No one was ever saved because they recited a creed. If this were important, we'd find it in scripture.
 
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bekkilyn

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No one was ever saved because they recited a creed. If this were important, we'd find it in scripture.

People aren't saved because they recited a bible verse either.

The creeds are based on scripture and promote what was determined to be correct Christian dogma vs. all the many heretical viewpoints that were common at the time (and unfortunately still common today, e.g. Christ is only a great teacher but not God, as an example of just one heresy that the creeds defend against.)
 
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People aren't saved because they recited a bible verse either.

What saves anyone is obeying the gospel. Creeds are superfluous to the gospel. There's not a word in the Bible asking us to recite creeds or to fashion creeds. As a matter of fact Paul tells us not to teach according to men's principles. Creeds are man's ways.

The creeds are based on scripture and promote what was determined to be correct Christian dogma vs. all the many heretical viewpoints that were common at the time (and unfortunately still common today, e.g. Christ is only a great teacher but not God, as an example of just one heresy that the creeds defend against.)

The Bible is itself far more effective than any man-made creed.
 
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