Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Douggg

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Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermix literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. At the cross there was destruction, after the cross there was destruction. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw by the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

There are about five hundred references to mountains and hills in Scripture. The Bible refers to both the physical reality of actual geographical locations and also equally uses them as spiritual symbols.

Mountains and hills of course refer to literal landscapes in Scripture, but they are also used as symbols to declare the nature of God or divine truth. God and His love are compared to the mountains and hills in Scripture. Psalm 125:2 states: “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.” Psalm 121:1 declares: “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.” Psalm 36:6: “Thy righteousness is like the great mountains.” Psalm 76:4: “Thou art more glorious and excellent than the mountains of prey.”

Mountains and hills can be joyful (Psalm 65:12, 89:12, 98:8), they can skip and leap (Psalm 114:4, 6), they can sing (Isiah 44:23 & 55:12). The prophets Ezekiel and Micah spoke to the mountains and picture God doing the same (Ezekiel 6:3, Ezekiel 36:4 & 6, Micah 6:1–2).

The majesty and power of kingdoms are often identified in Scripture with the magnificent and splendor of mountains.
Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

This prophecy did not in any way insinuate that John was arriving with a great earth-remover in order to flatten “every mountain and hill” around Jerusalem, nor to fill in the natural valleys that surrounded the city. No. Like Luke, Zechariah was not looking for physical change in the geographical terrain of natural Israel. He was simply speaking in figurative hyperbole describing what God wanted to do in the hearts of the people. He was articulating the colossal impact the coming of Christ’s kingdom had upon the earth.

We see the same idea presented in Isaiah 41:14-15: “Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.”

Commentators see a connection between this and assignment of John the Baptist. They take this as denoting the successful spread of the Gospel by faithful Israel and it conquering of nations and kingdoms. Zechariah is seen challenging a mountain in Zechariah 4:7, declaring: “Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain.” The mountain here seems to symbolize a wicked resisting power or powers. The prophet predicts that they will be brought low.

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. The references to topographical changes are therefore figurative. This kind of language is common throughout the Old Testament. It’s talking about spiritual things and in fact we know that because John the Baptist was the fulfilment of the one where every mountain shall be brought low and every valley exalted.

Micah 1:3-5 said of Christ: “For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?”

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God “is coming forth from His place” to “come down and tread on the high places of the earth.” This descriptive language is no different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split. It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord coming down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Habakkuk 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands” (Isaiah 55:12).

This passage is portraying the great global expanse of the Gospel. Jehovah God would no longer be limited to one small nation in the Middle East. Indeed “the LORD shall be king over all the earth.” When Christ came He ushered the great evangelization of the nations. Nations that were once hopelessly outside of Christ and outside of hope would now, in this Gospel age, experience God in a very personal and living way. He is now the Lord of the nations. The heathen have been embracing Him in their millions for years. Jew and Gentile are all one in Christ now. There is no longer any division between the two. There is one Lord and Savior of all the earth.

Jesus used similar language in Matthew 17:20-21: “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”

Mountains are shown here to be moved by simple faith. Obviously, they are not literal. This correlates with Isaiah 40:3-5, Micah 1:3-5 and Zechariah 14:4.

Anyway, Christ has already come and set His feet upon the Mount of Olives and established true worship by the working and ministry of the Holy Spirit (as rivers of living water) throughout the earth. Matthew 26:30-31, 27:50-51 says, “And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7 speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

We can see this great eternal atonement that Christ made caused an earthquake to shake Jerusalem that affected the whole terrain.

Even Tertullian the Early Church Father who was Chiliast recognized Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.
That is one of the most long winded obtuse argument I have heard.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 
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jgr

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Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermix literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. At the cross there was destruction, after the cross there was destruction. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw by the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

There are about five hundred references to mountains and hills in Scripture. The Bible refers to both the physical reality of actual geographical locations and also equally uses them as spiritual symbols.

Mountains and hills of course refer to literal landscapes in Scripture, but they are also used as symbols to declare the nature of God or divine truth. God and His love are compared to the mountains and hills in Scripture. Psalm 125:2 states: “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.” Psalm 121:1 declares: “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.” Psalm 36:6: “Thy righteousness is like the great mountains.” Psalm 76:4: “Thou art more glorious and excellent than the mountains of prey.”

Mountains and hills can be joyful (Psalm 65:12, 89:12, 98:8), they can skip and leap (Psalm 114:4, 6), they can sing (Isiah 44:23 & 55:12). The prophets Ezekiel and Micah spoke to the mountains and picture God doing the same (Ezekiel 6:3, Ezekiel 36:4 & 6, Micah 6:1–2).

The majesty and power of kingdoms are often identified in Scripture with the magnificent and splendor of mountains.
Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

This prophecy did not in any way insinuate that John was arriving with a great earth-remover in order to flatten “every mountain and hill” around Jerusalem, nor to fill in the natural valleys that surrounded the city. No. Like Luke, Zechariah was not looking for physical change in the geographical terrain of natural Israel. He was simply speaking in figurative hyperbole describing what God wanted to do in the hearts of the people. He was articulating the colossal impact the coming of Christ’s kingdom had upon the earth.

We see the same idea presented in Isaiah 41:14-15: “Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.”

Commentators see a connection between this and assignment of John the Baptist. They take this as denoting the successful spread of the Gospel by faithful Israel and it conquering of nations and kingdoms. Zechariah is seen challenging a mountain in Zechariah 4:7, declaring: “Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain.” The mountain here seems to symbolize a wicked resisting power or powers. The prophet predicts that they will be brought low.

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. The references to topographical changes are therefore figurative. This kind of language is common throughout the Old Testament. It’s talking about spiritual things and in fact we know that because John the Baptist was the fulfilment of the one where every mountain shall be brought low and every valley exalted.

Micah 1:3-5 said of Christ: “For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?”

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God “is coming forth from His place” to “come down and tread on the high places of the earth.” This descriptive language is no different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split. It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord coming down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Habakkuk 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands” (Isaiah 55:12).

This passage is portraying the great global expanse of the Gospel. Jehovah God would no longer be limited to one small nation in the Middle East. Indeed “the LORD shall be king over all the earth.” When Christ came He ushered the great evangelization of the nations. Nations that were once hopelessly outside of Christ and outside of hope would now, in this Gospel age, experience God in a very personal and living way. He is now the Lord of the nations. The heathen have been embracing Him in their millions for years. Jew and Gentile are all one in Christ now. There is no longer any division between the two. There is one Lord and Savior of all the earth.

Jesus used similar language in Matthew 17:20-21: “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”

Mountains are shown here to be moved by simple faith. Obviously, they are not literal. This correlates with Isaiah 40:3-5, Micah 1:3-5 and Zechariah 14:4.

Anyway, Christ has already come and set His feet upon the Mount of Olives and established true worship by the working and ministry of the Holy Spirit (as rivers of living water) throughout the earth. Matthew 26:30-31, 27:50-51 says, “And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7 speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

We can see this great eternal atonement that Christ made caused an earthquake to shake Jerusalem that affected the whole terrain.

Even Tertullian the Early Church Father who was Chiliast recognized Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.

Insightful and inspirational, brother; thanks.
 
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jgr

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1 Corinthians 15
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The discernment of naturalism is the discernment of futurism.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Premillennialists live in the Old Testament. You need to move into the New Testament era. That is who Israel were before Christ came. The rules have changed under the new covenant! There is no longer any ethnic superiority or favoritism. Yahweh divorced wayward Israel. He took the kingdom off them and gave it to the trans-national NT Church. You are always trying to explain away New Testament truth with Old Testament truth that has been superceded with the intro of the new covenant.

The Bible student will know that the answer is crystal clear in Scripture. Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost – irrespective of race, genetic DNA, color, gender, birthday or social status (Acts 10:34-35, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). What is more, He came to unite not divide. He united the believing Jews with the believing Gentiles (John 10:14-16, Romans 11:17-24, 12:5 Ephesians 2:10-19, 3:4-6, 4:16, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27, Galatians 3:28-29 and Colossians 3:11&15).

Peter in 1 Peter 2:9-10 tells us whilst addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Here, Peter confirms the significant participation of Gentile believers in God’s elect covenant community. Where natural Israel failed in their vocation, true Israel accomplishes it as a multinational spiritual force. He takes promises, which were clearly addressed to Old Testament Israel (in Exodus 19:5-6 and Deuteronomy 14:2), and applies them directly and unambiguously to the Church of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. God’s people are shown to be a holy people, because God is holy. In presenting this, Peter ratifies the continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

Let us remind ourselves of the Old Testament text in Exodus 19:5-6: Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” Deuteronomy 14:2 connects: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Far from restricting the “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” description to the nation of Israel, Peter expands it out to embrace the many Gentile believers in this new covenant period. Not even the most blinkered Dispy could surely dispute this. The New Testament trans-national congregation today fulfils the priestly commission that Old Testament Israel failed to accomplish.

To support his reasoning, he also employs Hosea 1:10 which predicted that enlightening of the Gentiles, and their integration into the people of God. This is demonstrated in verse 10, where he testifies that the mainly Gentile Church who were once “not a people, but are now the people of God” had now been integrated into the Israel of God. He reinforces this point, telling us that they “which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He related this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament. We can find that holy nation predicted in Isaiah 55:5 says, “Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.”
 
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keras

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This seems to be a personal interpretation as the context of 2 Samuel 22:8-16 is the defeat of David’s enemies and Saul, not the 6th seal.

And David spoke to the Lord the words of this song on the day when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul.
2 Samuel 22:1 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Samuel 22:1 - English Standard Version
Sure; David praised God for His protection, but how the Lord saved him, was not the way David says.
The graphic description of a worldwide disaster can only be linked to the Sixth Seal event, still in the future.
The prophets frequently intermix literal and figurative language all the time.
Correct SG.
It requires discernment and an open mind to see how the prophecies correlate.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Correct SG.
It requires discernment and an open mind to see how the prophecies correlate.

I agree!

That is why we need to employ the New Testament to understand the Old Testament. The New Testament is superior to the Old because it is the fuller revelation. The New Testament is a more informed, complete and vivid picture of the divine program than that which is contained within the Old Testament. The New Testament picture fills in the incomplete picture given by the Old Testament. It shines light on much of the obscurity and murkiness of the Old Testament. That is why theologians insist: “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.” Steve Lehrer wisely advises: “read the Old Covenant Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant Scriptures” (New Covenant Theology: Questions Answered).
 
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keras

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I agree!

That is why we need to employ the New Testament to understand the Old Testament. The New Testament is superior to the Old because it is the fuller revelation. The New Testament is a more informed, complete and vivid picture of the divine program than that which is contained within the Old Testament. The New Testament picture fills in the incomplete picture given by the Old Testament. It shines light on much of the obscurity and murkiness of the Old Testament. That is why theologians insist: “the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed; the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.” Steve Lehrer wisely advises: “read the Old Covenant Scriptures through the lens of the New Covenant Scriptures” (New Covenant Theology: Questions Answered).
That is why we now know that it will be the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lord's fiery wrath that will fulfil all those OT prophecies describing a worldwide disaster, accompanied by dramatic cosmic signs.
Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8 prophecy the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, but Revelation 6:1-8 reveals when they are released. Proved by the Fourth Seal, which tells us about the Christian martyrs, thru all this Christian era.
 
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Did the hills melt? If so, which ones and when?
Hi J,
actually, the verse does not say which ones, it merely says they melted. But I infer that it was the ones near to the Lord's presence when he showed up. Why not?
If God can resurrect a body... he can make stones melt, as well.
Stones can melt, as far as I know.
Thomas
 
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thomas_t

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Hi SG,
It seems like you are hyper-sensitive and easily bullied. Just because people challenge you or disagree does not mean they are bullying you. This is honestly ridiculous. Why do you post here if you are always looking for offence?
No, I'm not always looking for offence. This is not ridiculous. If someone doesn't have time to read 5+ pages a day - giving it some sincere thought - then he can easily be bullied out of the debate if you make sure he gets more than 5 pages to read a day. It's simple.
I'm not hyper-sensitive, though.
"Why do you post here", I hope you don't want to shupt me up.
The making of 1 spiritual people from 2 natural peoples.
Ah - so both natural Israel + natural Gentiles are taken into account, as you say. That's interesting. So my answer is 2 in the sense of that verse.
Interestingly, this verse (Ephesians 2:14) negates we're all Jews since Israel is mentioned seperatly from the Christians.
Thomas
 
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Douggg

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Premillennialists live in the Old Testament. You need to move into the New Testament era. That is who Israel were before Christ came. The rules have changed under the new covenant! There is no longer any ethnic superiority or favoritism. Yahweh divorced wayward Israel. He took the kingdom off them and gave it to the trans-national NT Church. You are always trying to explain away New Testament truth with Old Testament truth that has been superceded with the intro of the new covenant.

The Bible student will know that the answer is crystal clear in Scripture. Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost – irrespective of race, genetic DNA, color, gender, birthday or social status (Acts 10:34-35, Romans 2:11, Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, 1 Peter 1:17). What is more, He came to unite not divide. He united the believing Jews with the believing Gentiles (John 10:14-16, Romans 11:17-24, 12:5 Ephesians 2:10-19, 3:4-6, 4:16, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 26-27, Galatians 3:28-29 and Colossians 3:11&15).

Peter in 1 Peter 2:9-10 tells us whilst addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Here, Peter confirms the significant participation of Gentile believers in God’s elect covenant community. Where natural Israel failed in their vocation, true Israel accomplishes it as a multinational spiritual force. He takes promises, which were clearly addressed to Old Testament Israel (in Exodus 19:5-6 and Deuteronomy 14:2), and applies them directly and unambiguously to the Church of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. God’s people are shown to be a holy people, because God is holy. In presenting this, Peter ratifies the continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

Let us remind ourselves of the Old Testament text in Exodus 19:5-6: Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” Deuteronomy 14:2 connects: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Far from restricting the “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” description to the nation of Israel, Peter expands it out to embrace the many Gentile believers in this new covenant period. Not even the most blinkered Dispy could surely dispute this. The New Testament trans-national congregation today fulfils the priestly commission that Old Testament Israel failed to accomplish.

To support his reasoning, he also employs Hosea 1:10 which predicted that enlightening of the Gentiles, and their integration into the people of God. This is demonstrated in verse 10, where he testifies that the mainly Gentile Church who were once “not a people, but are now the people of God” had now been integrated into the Israel of God. He reinforces this point, telling us that they “which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He related this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament. We can find that holy nation predicted in Isaiah 55:5 says, “Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.”
Gog/Magog near future.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
 
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Douggg

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OIP.C9oWbalCiafjYuScI6UW2gEyDM


Not yet split in half.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,

No, I'm not always looking for offence. This is not ridiculous. If someone doesn't have time to read 5+ pages a day - giving it some sincere thought - then he can easily be bullied out of the debate if you make sure he gets more than 5 pages to read a day. It's simple.
I'm not hyper-sensitive, though.
"Why do you post here", I hope you don't want to shupt me up.

Ah - so both natural Israel + natural Gentiles are taken into account, as you say. That's interesting. So my answer is 2 in the sense of that verse.
Interestingly, this verse (Ephesians 2:14) negates we're all Jews since Israel is mentioned seperatly from the Christians.
Thomas

There is only one people of God in Scripture. There is not two. Repeated Scripture shows us that natural ethnic race means nothing with the Lord under the new covenant. All that matters is that a man is born again. If he is not born again then he is a child of the devil and he is destined for hell.
 
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sovereigngrace

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thomas_t

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Repeated Scripture shows us that natural ethnic race means nothing with the Lord under the new covenant. All that matters is that a man is born again.
At the individual level, being born again means all, I agree.
However, you said yourself (see last reply) that ***natural Israel*** was also meant in Ephesians 2:14 so I don't understand you telling me all of a sudden that being a natural Israeli doesn't count at all anymore. God counts them - I count them, too. If God makes the one new man out of two units including the natural.... I won't write the Jew off.
Within the kingdom of God, race doesn't count, here we agree.
 
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sovereigngrace

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At the individual level, being born again means all, I agree.
However, you said yourself (see last reply) that ***natural Israel*** was also meant in Ephesians 2:14 so I don't understand you telling me all of a sudden that being a natural Israeli doesn't count at all anymore. God counts them - I count them, too. If God makes the one new man out of two units including the natural.... I won't write the Jew off.
Within the kingdom of God, race doesn't count, here we agree.

While race is everything to the Zionists. Race means nothing today to God.

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Galatians 5:2 declares, if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”
Colossians 3:11 declares, there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."


Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”

Ephesians 2:14

Ephesians 2:14 makes clear: “For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.”

What parties were divided with a wall?

Who has Christ made one?

The overwhelmingly Jewish Old Testament redeemed Church and the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament redeemed Church. This settlement is a spiritual union of believers. This is not a natural arrangement. The fact that Christ and His work on the cross is the means of unification shows that we are exclusively looking at God’s elect throughout time. There is no other way of salvation for man.

The context of the passage in view is basically comparing the dark hopeless condition the Gentiles were in before the cross to the liberated enlightened position those who embraced Christ were after the cross. It is only upon conversion that our sins are washed away and the blood of Jesus becomes effectual. Through Calvary, the believing Gentile has been brought into a new dominion and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into:

· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world

A Gentile is said in this text to be made a true Israelite. They are said to be “fellowcitizens” – a citizen of believing Israel. Obviously believing Gentiles do not become natural citizens of Israel, so this must mean spiritual citizens of Israel.
 
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