The Fatal Flaw in Dispensationalism

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I did address that and agreed with you that there were local churches only mentioned in Revelation 2-3.
I also mentioned that those in the true church are a spiritual organism which we both agree on.
I also said the true church today go to local assemblies just like the historical 7 and the early church whether a house or some other type of building.
You seem to disagree.

3. Those local churches were true churches that John ministered to and may have started but the point is they were true believers as a whole but Ephesus backslid to the point of losing their first love. Many churches have done this and are no longer around.
There were saved and unsaved in Asia Minor and all churches of Paul were too, and today too.

Click to expand...

But the Pretrib argument (literature) revolves around the redeemed Church - those who are truly Christ's, not the local church. Most theologians accept that there is a big difference between the visible local church and the invisible true Church. The visible local church is those who profess. The true Church is those who possess. There is no mention of the invisible possessing Church by name (ekklesia) in Revelation anywhere. But there are many similar titles. So, this totally negates this crucial Pretrib argument that the non-mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19 proves they are not on earth, and are in fact raptured. What i am saying is: they must also then not be on earth in Revelation 1-6 or Revelation 2-22, if you are going to be consistent.

The Bible student will know: the same sword Goliath intended to take the head off David was the same sword that ended up removing his own head. Similarly, the same gallows that Haman created to hang Mordecai on where the same gallows Haman ended up hanging from. Likewise, when put to the test, the Pretrib sword that was designed to destroy Posttrib actually ends up destroying Pretrib. The Pretrib gallows that were intended to hang Posttrib end up hanging Pretrib.

I said in the millennial kingdom their will be the true church which will be a full theocracy with Christ literally reigning with the saints from Adam’s day to Revelation 4:1 rapture of the church to the 1st resurrection of tribulation saints who didn’t take the mark of the beast Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6 and their will be sinners in the kingdom at the same time till the 1000 years will be over Revelation 20:9

Click to expand...

But the very reasoning Pretrib uses to preclude the Posttrib argument is the very one they hang on. They argue that the Church must be absent from the earth between Revelation 4–19 because of the fact that the word ekklesia is not mentioned in those chapters. But the word “Church” is not found in Revelation 20 in the millennium. They cannot therefore be part of that period of time.

2. The tares and wheat grow together but the church will Be raptured.

Click to expand...

Who are the wheat and who are the tares in this parable? And, is there anyone excluded from the scope of these two inclusive groupings? Or, put another way; are there any in-betweens or semi-tares / semi-wheat that are omitted in their description? Firstly, the wheat and tares are a symbolic collective inclusive representation of all mankind; the wheat representing “the children of the kingdom” (Matthew 13:38) – those saved by God’s wonderful grace; the tares representing “the children of the wicked one” (Matthew 13:38) – those outside of grace and of God. The righteous in this story are notably planted of God; the tares on the other hand are planted of the “enemy” – the devil. In fact, Matthew 13:39 states, “The enemy that sowed them is the devil.” This again corroborates the view that we are viewing the only two sole peoples that Scripture recognises. Plainly, if one isn’t of the Lord then there are of the devil. There are no hybrids.

The wheat is the Church - the “saints,” the “redeemed,” “them which are saved,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants” of God.

Here we also see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. Christ interchanges the phrases “the end of the world/age” and “the end of this world/age,” showing that the Coming of Christ is indeed the end. This is in contrast to the blessed future eternal “age to come.”

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, “the end of the world” is plainly identified with the Coming of the “Son of man” with all “his angels” to gather together “the righteous” unto Himself in order that they will finally “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father” in their glorified state. This event also (significantly) simultaneously sees the uprooting of the tares (in total) to be finally and completely destroyed by casting them “into a furnace of fire.” It is at the Second Coming therefore that Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest. The phrase “end of the world” is the end of the aioonos or age. Both wheat and tares are collectively and wholly judged together at the end of this present Gospel age.

sovereigngrace said:

But the Pretrib argument (literature) revolves around the redeemed Church - those who are truly Christ's, not the local church. Most theologians accept that there is a big difference between the visible local church and the invisible true Church. The visible local church is those who profess. The true Church is those who possess. There is no mention of the invisible possessing Church by name (ekklesia) in Revelation anywhere. But there are many similar titles. So, this totally negates this crucial Pretrib argument that the non-mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19 proves they are not on earth, and are in fact raptured. What i am saying is: they must also then not be on earth in Revelation 1-6 or Revelation 2-22, if you are going to be consistent.

The Bible student will know: the same sword Goliath intended to take the head off David was the same sword that ended up removing his own head. Similarly, the same gallows that Haman created to hang Mordecai on where the same gallows Haman ended up hanging from. Likewise, when put to the test, the Pretrib sword that was designed to destroy Posttrib actually ends up destroying Pretrib. The Pretrib gallows that were intended to hang Posttrib end up hanging Pretrib.



But the very reasoning Pretrib uses to preclude the Posttrib argument is the very one they hang on. They argue that the Church must be absent from the earth between Revelation 4–19 because of the fact that the word ekklesia is not mentioned in those chapters. But the word “Church” is not found in Revelation 20 in the millennium. They cannot therefore be part of that period of time.



Who are the wheat and who are the tares in this parable? And, is there anyone excluded from the scope of these two inclusive groupings? Or, put another way; are there any in-betweens or semi-tares / semi-wheat that are omitted in their description? Firstly, the wheat and tares are a symbolic collective inclusive representation of all mankind; the wheat representing “the children of the kingdom” (Matthew 13:38) – those saved by God’s wonderful grace; the tares representing “the children of the wicked one” (Matthew 13:38) – those outside of grace and of God. The righteous in this story are notably planted of God; the tares on the other hand are planted of the “enemy” – the devil. In fact, Matthew 13:39 states, “The enemy that sowed them is the devil.” This again corroborates the view that we are viewing the only two sole peoples that Scripture recognises. Plainly, if one isn’t of the Lord then there are of the devil. There are no hybrids.

The wheat is the Church - the “saints,” the “redeemed,” “them which are saved,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants” of God.

Here we also see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. Christ interchanges the phrases “the end of the world/age” and “the end of this world/age,” showing that the Coming of Christ is indeed the end. This is in contrast to the blessed future eternal “age to come.”

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, “the end of the world” is plainly identified with the Coming of the “Son of man” with all “his angels” to gather together “the righteous” unto Himself in order that they will finally “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father” in their glorified state. This event also (significantly) simultaneously sees the uprooting of the tares (in total) to be finally and completely destroyed by casting them “into a furnace of fire.” It is at the Second Coming therefore that Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest. The phrase “end of the world” is the end of the aioonos or age. Both wheat and tares are collectively and wholly judged together at the end of this present Gospel age.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. Sorry but you are beating a dead horse.
We already agree on the difference of the true church and the professing church.
Those local churches were true churches and had different spiritual problems like today.
Your argument is like squeezing blood out of a turnip.
You had more of a logical argument with the church made up of Jews & Gentiles.

2. Revelation 20 church not mentioned? That doesn’t mean anything. Revelation 5:9-10 shows we will reign on earth for that is what we are being trained for right now 2 Timothy 2:12. The subject of the Kingdom includes more than one passage in Revelation.

3. The true church who are in local assemblies will be raptured when the church age end a will be in Heaven during the tribulation and come back out of Heaven at the end of the tribulation to go rescue Israel and Christ will set up the millennial kingdom. That is consistent.

4. Revelation 6:9-11 souls under the altar. These are the 1st half tribulation saints that are told to wait on their brethren and since they are under the altar they probably will be resurrected with those in the 2nd half who don’t take the mark such as Revelation 14:13; 15:1-2.
Saved souls that die always go to Heaven.
The 144,000 Jews Revelation 14:1-5 and the two witnesses Revelation 11:13 are both raptured before the 1st resurrection.

5. The wheat are children of the kingdom not the church.
Jesus spoke this to the disciples who were Jewish before the cross. Why? Because it involves the restitution of all things including the restoration of Israel. The true church needs no restoration as the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Matthew 16:18.

6. Wheat are true believers not the church age saints. The wheat are not raptured for they are children of the kingdom Matthew 13. Jerry Kelso
So if believe in a post rapture you are wrong for there is none. And the first resurrection are only the dead martyrs. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Sorry but you are beating a dead horse.

Click to expand...

Really? How about answering my question? Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Your argument is like squeezing blood out of a turnip.

Click to expand...

What are you talking about?

You had more of a logical argument with the church made up of Jews & Gentiles.

Click to expand...

· Are unregenerate Jews God's chosen people?
· Are there 2 peoples of God?

2. Revelation 20 church not mentioned? That doesn’t mean anything.

Click to expand...

Exactly. You just confirmed my assertion above and demolished the whole Pretrib premise for why the Church is not on earth for your imaginary future 7-yeras-trib!

Revelation 5:9-10 shows we will reign on earth for that is what we are being trained for right now 2 Timothy 2:12. The subject of the Kingdom includes more than one passage in Revelation.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is a perfected earth, free of sin, sinners, death, decay, Satan and war. This us the opposite of the corrupt premil millennial earth.

3. The true church who are in local assemblies will be raptured when the church age end a will be in Heaven during the tribulation and come back out of Heaven at the end of the tribulation to go rescue Israel and Christ will set up the millennial kingdom. That is consistent.

Click to expand...

This is all fiction. You have to first show your rapture of the Church in Revelation for it to be real. So far you have been careful to avoid that! I wonder why???

4. Revelation 6:9-11 souls under the altar. These are the 1st half tribulation saints that are told to wait on their brethren and since they are under the altar they probably will be resurrected with those in the 2nd half who don’t take the mark such as Revelation 14:13; 15:1-2.

Saved souls that die always go to Heaven.
The 144,000 Jews Revelation 14:1-5 and the two witnesses Revelation 11:13 are both raptured before the 1st resurrection.

Click to expand...

It is talking about the here-and-now. We are in the tribulation. We have been since Stephen's stoning. Nowhere in the sacred pages does it teach a 7-years trib.

5. The wheat are children of the kingdom not the church.

Click to expand...

We entered the kingdom of God through the new birth. Please read John 3 instead of your Dispy teachers.

Jesus spoke this to the disciples who were Jewish before the cross. Why? Because it involves the restitution of all things including the restoration of Israel. The true church needs no restoration as the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Matthew 16:18.

6. Wheat are true believers not the church age saints. The wheat are not raptured for they are children of the kingdom Matthew 13. Jerry Kelso
So if believe in a post rapture you are wrong for there is none. And the first resurrection are only the dead martyrs. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as "church age saints." Please show me! The problem I see with dispensationalists is that they artificially make a special protected class of sinner – Israeli sinners – to support their extra-biblical teaching. They somehow make them elect sinner. They present them as a specially blessed sinner. They are somehow chosen of God because of an accident of birth, and God because of their ethnic race, when this has never been the case, either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Salvation has always been by grace, not race.

The reality is there are only two camps of human beings – saved and lost, those who belong to God and those who belong to the devil. There is no third group. Premillennialism invents a third group who are too righteous to be destroyed when Jesus comes and to wicked to be caught up and glorified. This group is totally unknown to Scripture. They create this to justify their ‘Segregation Theology’.

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. Sorry but you are beating a dead horse.
We already agree on the difference of the true church and the professing church.
Those local churches were true churches and had different spiritual problems like today.
Your argument is like squeezing blood out of a turnip.
You had more of a logical argument with the church made up of Jews & Gentiles.

2. Revelation 20 church not mentioned? That doesn’t mean anything. Revelation 5:9-10 shows we will reign on earth for that is what we are being trained for right now 2 Timothy 2:12. The subject of the Kingdom includes more than one passage in Revelation.

3. The true church who are in local assemblies will be raptured when the church age end a will be in Heaven during the tribulation and come back out of Heaven at the end of the tribulation to go rescue Israel and Christ will set up the millennial kingdom. That is consistent.

4. Revelation 6:9-11 souls under the altar. These are the 1st half tribulation saints that are told to wait on their brethren and since they are under the altar they probably will be resurrected with those in the 2nd half who don’t take the mark such as Revelation 14:13; 15:1-2.
Saved souls that die always go to Heaven.
The 144,000 Jews Revelation 14:1-5 and the two witnesses Revelation 11:13 are both raptured before the 1st resurrection.

5. The wheat are children of the kingdom not the church.
Jesus spoke this to the disciples who were Jewish before the cross. Why? Because it involves the restitution of all things including the restoration of Israel. The true church needs no restoration as the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it Matthew 16:18.

6. Wheat are true believers not the church age saints. The wheat are not raptured for they are children of the kingdom Matthew 13. Jerry Kelso
So if believe in a post rapture you are wrong for there is none. And the first resurrection are only the dead martyrs. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

Can you address #600 please?

sovereigngrace said:

Really? How about answering my question? Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?



What are you talking about?



· Are unregenerate Jews God's chosen people?
· Are there 2 peoples of God?



Exactly. You just confirmed my assertion above and demolished the whole Pretrib premise for why the Church is not on earth for your imaginary future 7-yeras-trib!



Yes, it is a perfected earth, free of sin, sinners, death, decay, Satan and war. This us the opposite of the corrupt premil millennial earth.



This is all fiction. You have to first show your rapture of the Church in Revelation for it to be real. So far you have been careful to avoid that! I wonder why???



It is talking about the here-and-now. We are in the tribulation. We have been since Stephen's stoning. Nowhere in the sacred pages does it teach a 7-years trib.



We entered the kingdom of God through the new birth. Please read John 3 instead of your Dispy teachers.



There is no such thing as "church age saints." Please show me! The problem I see with dispensationalists is that they artificially make a special protected class of sinner – Israeli sinners – to support their extra-biblical teaching. They somehow make them elect sinner. They present them as a specially blessed sinner. They are somehow chosen of God because of an accident of birth, and God because of their ethnic race, when this has never been the case, either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Salvation has always been by grace, not race.

The reality is there are only two camps of human beings – saved and lost, those who belong to God and those who belong to the devil. There is no third group. Premillennialism invents a third group who are too righteous to be destroyed when Jesus comes and to wicked to be caught up and glorified. This group is totally unknown to Scripture. They create this to justify their ‘Segregation Theology’.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. You said your big issue was the word church was local church and not the true church.
You were wrong and I showed that and why.

2. The rapture I showed why in 4:1 and not the second advent and you were wrong there.

3. You are trying to make something there that is not there on your point of the difference between the professing church only being in Revelation 2-3 and not the true church.

3. I didn’t say unregenerate Jews were spiritual Jews but they were still a part of physical Israel.
This was in the context of whether or not the professing church was in the true church or vice versa.
So you are wrong again.
Israel and the church age saints have 2 different callings. I already gave the scriptures and you keep ignoring them.
This doesn’t mean they are two people spiritual for there is only one New Covenant for all people to be saved by.
So you are wrong again.

4. Confirming your assertion about demolishing Pre-Trib rapture because it is not found in one passage is absurd and you are just disagreeing and have shown no scripture to disprove it. I showed you other scriptures to prove it and you did not address that.

5. There will be sinners in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:2-4; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalms 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:7-10.
The unsaved people that keep the outward laws of the government will be allowed to live through the millennial kingdom though their hearts are rebellious. They will be the ones in the last rebellion of Revelation 20:7-9 at the end of the 1000 years.
Others committing sins worthy of death will be executed Isaiah 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20.
So you are wrong again.

6. I have shown some of the rapture on this post but maybe not to you. I can show plenty of other scriptures but I can tell you that there are three feasts left which is the Feast of trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feasts of Tabernacles and the Order cannot be changed.
I have been doing all the explaining so are you willing to show what you know about the post rapture?

7. You obviously don’t understand the 70 weeks of Daniel for Israel and the Holy City Daniel 9:24-27.
The time of Jacob’s trouble is the last 3.5 years Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:15,21; Romans 9:25-29; Revelation 12.
I don’t think you understand the big picture.

8. Tribulation only in general being from the time of Steven is not true. The reason the 7 years tribulation is future and is not the same as general tribulation as in Matthew 24:5-8.
Wrong again I your assessment.

9. John 3 was Jesus talking to the Jewish leader under thage of law of Moses and born of water and Spirit was prophetic to the cross.
The water was the Red Sea deliverance 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.
The second time was by the Spirit under the New Covenant Ezekiel 36:26-27.
So Israel rejected this Matthew 23:37-39. They will receive the New Covenant at the end of the tribulation Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-12 and at the end when the time of the gentiles is come in Romans 9:25.
So yes there is no argument against being born again by the finished work of Christ Matthew 26:28.
I rely on the Holy Spirit and I do study to show myself approved and like the Bereans make sure they are telling the truth whether Dispensational or Covenant theology or any other.
My Dad always told me to not believe him just because he was my Dad. So I think you jumped the gun.

10. Church age saints is because we will be raptured Ephesians 1:3;4:15-17.
Elected sinners is your words and is not scriptural. That usage sounds like a Calvinist term.
Are you a Calvinist?
All your points on this note is your opinion of what a dispensationalist believes and you are mistaken.
We believe salvation by grace not works Romans 4:1-6. Another mistake.

11. There are the Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God Acts 24:15.
Spiritually there is saved and unsaved.

12. The church made up of saved too righteous to be destroyed at his coming and too wicked to be glorified and caught up is an oxymoron because Matthew 16:18; The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. That was the Lord speaking.
Since you say we create this, which is not true, and call it a segregation theology makes us separate the sinners too wicked to be glorified and caught up. If this is your thought you need to rethink your position.
Sinners can come to Christ but there will come a day when they will run out of time Hebrews 3:6-19.
In any case you are making up things about Dispensationalists that are not true.
So what is your real position on the rapture? Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. You said your big issue was the word church was local church and not the true church.
You were wrong and I showed that and why.

2. The rapture I showed why in 4:1 and not the second advent and you were wrong there.

3. You are trying to make something there that is not there on your point of the difference between the professing church only being in Revelation 2-3 and not the true church.

3. I didn’t say unregenerate Jews were spiritual Jews but they were still a part of physical Israel.
This was in the context of whether or not the professing church was in the true church or vice versa.
So you are wrong again.
Israel and the church age saints have 2 different callings. I already gave the scriptures and you keep ignoring them.
This doesn’t mean they are two people spiritual for there is only one New Covenant for all people to be saved by.
So you are wrong again.

4. Confirming your assertion about demolishing Pre-Trib rapture because it is not found in one passage is absurd and you are just disagreeing and have shown no scripture to disprove it. I showed you other scriptures to prove it and you did not address that.

5. There will be sinners in the millennial kingdom Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:2-4; 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20; Psalms 2:6-9; Micah 4:3; Zechariah 14:16-21; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 20:7-10.
The unsaved people that keep the outward laws of the government will be allowed to live through the millennial kingdom though their hearts are rebellious. They will be the ones in the last rebellion of Revelation 20:7-9 at the end of the 1000 years.
Others committing sins worthy of death will be executed Isaiah 11:3-5; 16:5; 65:20.
So you are wrong again.

6. I have shown some of the rapture on this post but maybe not to you. I can show plenty of other scriptures but I can tell you that there are three feasts left which is the Feast of trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feasts of Tabernacles and the Order cannot be changed.
I have been doing all the explaining so are you willing to show what you know about the post rapture?

7. You obviously don’t understand the 70 weeks of Daniel for Israel and the Holy City Daniel 9:24-27.
The time of Jacob’s trouble is the last 3.5 years Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:15,21; Romans 9:25-29; Revelation 12.
I don’t think you understand the big picture.

8. Tribulation only in general being from the time of Steven is not true. The reason the 7 years tribulation is future and is not the same as general tribulation as in Matthew 24:5-8.
Wrong again I your assessment.

9. John 3 was Jesus talking to the Jewish leader under thage of law of Moses and born of water and Spirit was prophetic to the cross.
The water was the Red Sea deliverance 1 Corinthians 10:1-4.
The second time was by the Spirit under the New Covenant Ezekiel 36:26-27.
So Israel rejected this Matthew 23:37-39. They will receive the New Covenant at the end of the tribulation Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:7-12 and at the end when the time of the gentiles is come in Romans 9:25.
So yes there is no argument against being born again by the finished work of Christ Matthew 26:28.
I rely on the Holy Spirit and I do study to show myself approved and like the Bereans make sure they are telling the truth whether Dispensational or Covenant theology or any other.
My Dad always told me to not believe him just because he was my Dad. So I think you jumped the gun.

10. Church age saints is because we will be raptured Ephesians 1:3;4:15-17.
Elected sinners is your words and is not scriptural. That usage sounds like a Calvinist term.
Are you a Calvinist?
All your points on this note is your opinion of what a dispensationalist believes and you are mistaken.
We believe salvation by grace not works Romans 4:1-6. Another mistake.

11. There are the Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God Acts 24:15.
Spiritually there is saved and unsaved.

12. The church made up of saved too righteous to be destroyed at his coming and too wicked to be glorified and caught up is an oxymoron because Matthew 16:18; The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. That was the Lord speaking.
Since you say we create this, which is not true, and call it a segregation theology makes us separate the sinners too wicked to be glorified and caught up. If this is your thought you need to rethink your position.
Sinners can come to Christ but there will come a day when they will run out of time Hebrews 3:6-19.
In any case you are making up things about Dispensationalists that are not true.
So what is your real position on the rapture? Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

I know you are doing your best to avoide this question, but I will keep asking until you address: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

The reason you are avoiding it is because there is absolutely zero proof for pretrib in the Bible. It is extra biblical. It is a man-made doctrine. it was invented by the Jesuits back in the early 1800s.

jerry kelso said:

The rapture I showed why in 4:1 and not the second advent and you were wrong there.

Click to expand...

You have totally avoided this also. Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?

(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up:

Revelation 17:1-3 in the same way says, “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters … So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 21:9-10 in the same way says, “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

Three times John is commanded “come hither” and all three times he is expressly “in the spirit.” All three passages closely mirror each other, in the sense that they describe the same supernatural manner in which John received the visions. Notwithstanding, none of them make the slightest allusion to the catching away of the saints.

Revelation 4:1-2 “come up hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 17:1-3 “come hither” “in the spirit”
Revelation 21:9-10 “come hither” “in the spirit”

If the Pretribbers insist on Revelation 4:1-2 being a definite record of the rapture then they must also accept Revelation 17:1-3 and Revelation 21:9-10 as recording two similar secret raptures. That is if they are going to be consistent.

Revelation. 4 verse 1. And from that point these things to be revealed is clearly stated that they occur AFTER the church age.

sovereigngrace said:

I know you are doing your best to avoide this question, but I will keep asking until you address: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

The reason you are avoiding it is because there is absolutely zero proof for pretrib in the Bible. It is extra biblical. It is a man-made doctrine. it was invented by the Jesuits back in the early 1800s.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. I haven’t avoided it. I showed you from Revelation 1-4 of how we get to Heaven.
Revelation 1:19 as the time factor, before, present in John’s day and after the church age.
Revelation 4:1 rapture to Heaven before the tribulation
Revelation 5:9-10 in Heaven before the tribulation
Revelation 11:18 in the middle of the tribulation or towards the end of the tribulation for saints and the prophets to receive rewards for their works in Heaven.
Revelation 19:7-10 at the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven.
This is before they come to earth with Christ in Revelation 19:11-15.

2. I also rebutted your position on the souls under the altar, saints brethren etc.
And I said more outside of Revelation about the Plan of God for the church and Israel etc.
So you are not being truthful about me avoiding the subject.
There is much more than I can say but I believe that is your turn to explain why you think their is a post rapture. This is not my first time and I am not a novice.
If you think you are right have at it because you have already proven to say things dispensations don’t say or believe. Your turn. Jerry Kelso

Dkml said:

Revelation. 4 verse 1. And from that point these things to be revealed is clearly stated that they occur AFTER the church age.

Click to expand...

Did you read what I just wrote? Obviously not. I refer you back.

There is absolutely no record of a Pretrib rapture in Revelation 4:1 or anywhere else in Holy Writ. That is why no Pretrib can answer this question. This is why many throughout the world are abandoning the Pre trib theory. Revelation 4:1 is John getting caught up in the spirit 2000 years ago.

Again: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I haven’t avoided it. I showed you from Revelation 1-4 of how we get to Heaven.
Revelation 1:19 as the time factor, before, present in John’s day and after the church age.
Revelation 4:1 rapture to Heaven before the tribulation
Revelation 5:9-10 in Heaven before the tribulation
Revelation 11:18 in the middle of the tribulation or towards the end of the tribulation for saints and the prophets to receive rewards for their works in Heaven.
Revelation 19:7-10 at the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven.
This is before they come to earth with Christ in Revelation 19:11-15.

2. I also rebutted your position on the souls under the altar, saints brethren etc.
And I said more outside of Revelation about the Plan of God for the church and Israel etc.
So you are not being truthful about me avoiding the subject.
There is much more than I can say but I believe that is your turn to explain why you think their is a post rapture. This is not my first time and I am not a novice.
If you think you are right have at it because you have already proven to say things dispensations don’t say or believe. Your turn. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

You have not rebutted anything apart from the Pretrib argument, by your continual avoidance and refusal to address a very basic but crucial question. My last post to you is still unaddressed. I refer you back.

Again: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I haven’t avoided it. I showed you from Revelation 1-4 of how we get to Heaven.
Revelation 1:19 as the time factor, before, present in John’s day and after the church age.
Revelation 4:1 rapture to Heaven before the tribulation
Revelation 5:9-10 in Heaven before the tribulation
Revelation 11:18 in the middle of the tribulation or towards the end of the tribulation for saints and the prophets to receive rewards for their works in Heaven.
Revelation 19:7-10 at the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven.
This is before they come to earth with Christ in Revelation 19:11-15.

2. I also rebutted your position on the souls under the altar, saints brethren etc.
And I said more outside of Revelation about the Plan of God for the church and Israel etc.
So you are not being truthful about me avoiding the subject.
There is much more than I can say but I believe that is your turn to explain why you think their is a post rapture. This is not my first time and I am not a novice.
If you think you are right have at it because you have already proven to say things dispensations don’t say or believe. Your turn. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

Have you or any Pretrib bothered to even question what you have been taught? Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament. In fact, there is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!! When Pretribber are pressed they quote Daniel 9 which (1) is an historic account that has already been fulfilled, (2) which related to Messiah’s first Coming and which makes no reference to a supposed rapture and a third Coming of Christ.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation.

It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text teaching it exposes its error.

sovereigngrace said:

You have not rebutted anything apart from the Pretrib argument, by your continual avoidance and refusal to address a very basic but crucial question. My last post to you is still unaddressed. I refer you back.

Again: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Click to expand...

sovereign,grace,

1. You obviously don’t want to share what you know. You have disagreed but not rebutted anything.

2. 1 Corinthians 15:52 Paul said the rapture was a mystery.
It couldn’t be the last day resurrection for their is only dead saved people that are raised Revelation 20:4-6.

3. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17;
Jesus is bringing the dead in Christ with him from Heaven with him. Those alive and remain will be caught up to meet the dead in Christ and Jesus both.
At the 2nd advent all saints will come from Heaven; which include Old Testament saints and church age saints and tribulation saints. They are all coming to do battle Revelation 19:11-20 at Armageddon Revelation 16:16.
These are 2 different events.

3. I already gave the time factor in Revelation 1:19.
The church in Heaven before 5:9-10 and during in Revelation 11:18 at the end of the tribulation 19:7-10 and comes out of Heaven Revelation 19:11–15.
So try and rebut this by scripture. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign,grace,

1. You obviously don’t want to share what you know. You have disagreed but not rebutted anything.

2. 1 Corinthians 15:52 Paul said the rapture was a mystery.
It couldn’t be the last day resurrection for their is only dead saved people that are raised Revelation 20:4-6.

3. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17;
Jesus is bringing the dead in Christ with him from Heaven with him. Those alive and remain will be caught up to meet the dead in Christ and Jesus both.
At the 2nd advent all saints will come from Heaven; which include Old Testament saints and church age saints and tribulation saints. They are all coming to do battle Revelation 19:11-20 at Armageddon Revelation 16:16.
These are 2 different events.

Click to expand...

LOL. None of those texts show (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. If it was in Scripture you would show it. You cannot because it is extra-biblical.

3. I already gave the time factor in Revelation 1:19.
The church in Heaven before 5:9-10 and during in Revelation 11:18 at the end of the tribulation 19:7-10 and comes out of Heaven Revelation 19:11–15.
So try and rebut this by scripture. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

Pretrib is built upon sand. It is built on the false premise that the non-mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19 proves they are not on earth, but are in fact raptured to heaven. But if we apply that same argument to the Pretribber then they cannot also be on heaven, after all there is no mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19. Where are they?

Notably: #607 and #612 remain (once again) avoided!

sovereigngrace said:

Have you or any Pretrib bothered to even question what you have been taught? Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament. In fact, there is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!! When Pretribber are pressed they quote Daniel 9 which (1) is an historic account that has already been fulfilled, (2) which related to Messiah’s first Coming and which makes no reference to a supposed rapture and a third Coming of Christ.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

This is calculated by:

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation.

It doesn't matter what way you look at Pretrib it doesn't add up. It is a man-made doctrine! Your failure to provide one single text teaching it exposes its error.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. I have studied more than dispensationalism.
I believe in proper Biblical hermeneutics and proper exegesis and deducing.
I am older than you are and though that doesn’t mean everything you should know that I am not a novice and I believe in being like the Bereans to see if what they say is true.

2. Revelation 4:1 doesn’t have to have a plain statement to be true any more than the post rapture has to have a plain statement in Revelation 20:4-6 that says those alive and remain shall be caught up into the clouds.

3. The 7 years is the last week of Daniels 70th week Daniel 9:24.
You think it is historical but you are wrong.
It deals with Israel’s kingdom restoration and they were not restored nor was the kingdom. This will happen when the gentiles be come in Romans 11:25-29.

4. I don’t have time to go over the times.
But the fact is that there are only 2 1260 day period which is 3.5 years s piece for 7 years.
You are jotting down every time factor and think they are all separate and tragedy are not.
You need to learn proper context.
Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I have studied more than dispensationalism.
I believe in proper Biblical hermeneutics and proper exegesis and deducing.
I am older than you are and though that doesn’t mean everything you should know that I am not a novice and I believe in being like the Bereans to see if what they say is true.

2. Revelation 4:1 doesn’t have to have a plain statement to be true any more than the post rapture has to have a plain statement in Revelation 20:4-6 that says those alive and remain shall be caught up into the clouds.

3. The 7 years is the last week of Daniels 70th week Daniel 9:24.
You think it is historical but you are wrong.
It deals with Israel’s kingdom restoration and they were not restored nor was the kingdom. This will happen when the gentiles be come in Romans 11:25-29.

4. I don’t have time to go over the times.
But the fact is that there are only 2 1260 day period which is 3.5 years s piece for 7 years.
You are jotting down every time factor and think they are all separate and tragedy are not.
You need to learn proper context.
Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

Age means nothing. There are many old men blinded by error.

The Church is not even mentioned in Revelation 4:1. That is a central belief in Pretrib. This is classic eisegesis. This is the wrong way to approach a text. If Prettrib is consistent in their reasoning on the absence of the word “church” then their argument relating to chapters 4 & 19 must be equally applied to their understanding of Revelation 4 also. Significantly, if it is, then they have absolutely no basis whatsoever for locating the Church in Revelation 4, as they do, and therefore arguing for a secret rapture of the Church in that chapter. On the basis of this logic we can safely assume that the Church isn’t remotely in view or can it participate in the happenings of this chapter.

Pretrib hermeneutics actually end up destroying the Pretrib doctrine. When consistently applied, it pulls apart the whole foundation of Pretrib.

Daniel 9

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

sovereigngrace said:

LOL. None of those texts show (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. If it was in Scripture you would show it. You cannot because it is extra-biblical.



Pretrib is built upon sand. It is built on the false premise that the non-mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19 proves they are not on earth, but are in fact raptured to heaven. But if we apply that same argument to the Pretribber then they cannot also be on heaven, after all there is no mention of the word ekklesia or “Church” in Revelation 6-19. Where are they?

Notably: #607 and #612 remain (once again) avoided!

Click to expand...

sovereign grace,

1. Anybody can disagree and that is all you are doing.
Give proper rebuttal on each point please. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

sovereign grace,

1. Anybody can disagree and that is all you are doing.
Give proper rebuttal on each point please. Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

The burden of proof is with you! The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." It is you that claims that there will be (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. You must show it! It is not in any of the texts that you reference. That is probably why you do not quote them. I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist. It is not in the text! That is enough! It is you that is inserting Pretrib into the Scripture where does not exist!

Your failure to furnish us with anything is testimony to its extra-biblical nature.

jerry kelso said:

sovereigngrace,

1. I have studied more than dispensationalism.
I believe in proper Biblical hermeneutics and proper exegesis and deducing.
I am older than you are and though that doesn’t mean everything you should know that I am not a novice and I believe in being like the Bereans to see if what they say is true.

2. Revelation 4:1 doesn’t have to have a plain statement to be true any more than the post rapture has to have a plain statement in Revelation 20:4-6 that says those alive and remain shall be caught up into the clouds.

3. The 7 years is the last week of Daniels 70th week Daniel 9:24.
You think it is historical but you are wrong.
It deals with Israel’s kingdom restoration and they were not restored nor was the kingdom. This will happen when the gentiles be come in Romans 11:25-29.

4. I don’t have time to go over the times.
But the fact is that there are only 2 1260 day period which is 3.5 years s piece for 7 years.
You are jotting down every time factor and think they are all separate and tragedy are not.
You need to learn proper context.
Jerry Kelso

Click to expand...

7. You obviously don’t understand the 70 weeks of Daniel for Israel and the Holy City Daniel 9:24-27.

Click to expand...

Daniel 9 does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

Daniel 9 does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 things elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What future event do you believe will:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

And exactly in what way will this be accomplished? Please answer this last question individually for points 1-6

sovereigngrace said:

The burden of proof is with you! The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." It is you that claims that there will be (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ. You must show it! It is not in any of the texts that you reference. That is probably why you do not quote them. I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist. It is not in the text! That is enough! It is you that is inserting Pretrib into the Scripture where does not exist!

Your failure to furnish us with anything is testimony to its extra-biblical nature.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace,

1. You haven’t taken the time to prove I was wrong except on Revelation 4:1. And I proved you wrong on your word church theory and why it doesn’t have to be a plain statement.
I don’t mind someone with a different view but I don’t like dishonest and unfair excuses and no proof of anything when it is rebutted or otherwise.
The burden of proof is for you to give proper rebuttal which you haven’t done.

2. Now I noticed you have a couple of other posts which I will read and hopefully you will have something of scriptural evidence.
I’ll be back.
Jerry Kelso