Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Douggg

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Where do you get your seven year tribulation in scripture? It is definitely not in Daniel 9. It is totally historic. Also, there are 5 3 1/2‘s in Revelation, not 2.
It is not 7 year "tribulation". I don't show 7 years "tribulation" on my chart. I show the 7 year 70th week. I am not a dispensationalist.

There is no phrase "3 1/2 years in the bible". I explained all of the timeframes in Revelation in a previous post, number 297 in this thread, to you. In my following post I will provide a chart having them all.

I show on my chart what begins the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years is a speech required by Moses of all future leaders of Israel, on a 7 years interval, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. I reference Deuteronomy 31:9-13 on my chart.

upload_2019-12-20_1-9-5.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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Where do you get your seven year tribulation in scripture? It is definitely not in Daniel 9. It is totally historic. Also, there are 5 3 1/2‘s in Revelation, not 2.
upload_2019-12-20_1-14-41.jpeg
 
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Douggg

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keras

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All in past tense.

Fulfilled metaphorically.
Bible prophecy is most often Written in past tense, because its fulfilment is sure.
The prime example in in Zechariah 9:9....See your King is coming, mounted on a donkey, His cause won, His victory gained.

There has never in human history been events such as is prophesied for the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Signs and wonders that describe feasible things, that can and will happen. Luke 21:25-26, Joel 2:30-31, Revelation 6:12-17
 
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thomas_t

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Hi Jgr,
Yeah, no disrespect to Thomas, but dispensationalism is a classic example of "interpretation by imagination/hallucination".
no, I don't have "interpretation by imagination/hallucination".
Mine is not shocking hermeneutics, either.
BTW, I hardly don't know what dispensationalism is...



Hi Gal,
thank you far having waited so long, I believe that you didn't want to bully me out of the debate.
On that single occasion I felt bullied by you, because you knew that I didn't have time to read long replies.
You say I can wait longer and I don't have to feel any rush to reply?
The problem I see with this is the following: the more posts I leave unanswered... the more likely it is that readers might think I am convinced by what they say. That's not the reality.
Moreover, apart from @Douggg there is noone answering replacement theology here...

Replacement theology, namely calling the Jew a pretender and Christians the "true Jews", is an aggressive mind set. It's attacking their identity. You can't just leave this unanswered!
You said you have sons. Please allow me to make a comparison?
When I say "You are not worth being called a mother. DNA doesn't count. You act horribly. You are a pretender not a mother!!!" would you feel insulted?
I can't see how it's any more "disrespectful" to acknowledge that modern-day Jews weren't being addressed (or even referred to) in the Bible any more than it is to acknowledge that none of us in this thread were included in the group called the "twelve apostles of Jesus".
Your comparison is good. However, I never said that none of you were included in the apostles of Jesus.
Truth is truth. We ought not shy away from it based on (possible) the feelings of others.
feelings? We should respect other people's identity.
In general, "truth is truth" or "the truth hurts", as I see it, often is a lame excuse to walk around hurling insults at others.

Thomas
 
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jgr

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Bible prophecy is most often Written in past tense, because its fulfilment is sure.

By that illogic, because Scripture's first prophecy is not written in past tense, therefore its fulfillment is not sure.

Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
 
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jgr

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If you admit that David literally saw that the hills melted, the earth shook and trembled, the foundations of the hills moved and were shaken, there went up a smoke out of his nostrils and fire out of his mouth, and he bowed the heavens and came down...

...then I'll admit that the mount of olives has literally not been split.


Psalm 97
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Psalm 18
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
 
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thomas_t

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Hi SG,
@Douggg answered No.1 best, nothing to add.
  • Are unregenerate Jews God's chosen people?
  • Are there 2 peoples of God?
Let me ask you a question concerning the number of peoples and then answer your second question, ok?
How many peoples does Ephesians 2:14 speak of?
Thomas
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,
@Douggg answered No.1 best, nothing to add.

Let me ask you a question concerning the number of peoples and then answer your second question, ok?
How many peoples does Ephesians 2:14 speak of?
Thomas

The making of 1 spiritual people from 2 natural peoples.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi Jgr,

no, I don't have "interpretation by imagination/hallucination".
Mine is not shocking hermeneutics, either.
BTW, I hardly don't know what dispensationalism is...



Hi Gal,
thank you far having waited so long, I believe that you didn't want to bully me out of the debate.
On that single occasion I felt bullied by you, because you knew that I didn't have time to read long replies.
You say I can wait longer and I don't have to feel any rush to reply?
The problem I see with this is the following: the more posts I leave unanswered... the more likely it is that readers might think I am convinced by what they say. That's not the reality.
Moreover, apart from @Douggg there is noone answering replacement theology here...

Replacement theology, namely calling the Jew a pretender and Christians the "true Jews", is an aggressive mind set. It's attacking their identity. You can't just leave this unanswered!
You said you have sons. Please allow me to make a comparison?
When I say "You are not worth being called a mother. DNA doesn't count. You act horribly. You are a pretender not a mother!!!" would you feel insulted?

Your comparison is good. However, I never said that none of you were included in the apostles of Jesus.

feelings? We should respect other people's identity.
In general, "truth is truth" or "the truth hurts", as I see it, often is a lame excuse to walk around hurling insults at others.

Thomas

It seems like you are hyper-sensitive and easily bullied. Just because people challenge you or disagree does not mean they are bullying you. This is honestly ridiculous. Why do you post here if you are always looking for offence?

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 describes the love that should characterize a Christian – agape love. Let us look:
  • agape love suffereth long
  • agape love is not easily provoked
  • agape love thinketh no evil
  • agape love rejoiceth not in iniquity
  • agape love rejoiceth in the truth
  • agape love beareth all things
  • agape love believeth all things
  • agape love hopeth all things
  • agape love endureth all things
Ps 119:165 says, “Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.”
 
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David Kent

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It is not 7 year "tribulation". I don't show 7 years "tribulation" on my chart. I show the 7 year 70th week. I am not a dispensationalist.

There is no phrase "3 1/2 years in the bible". I explained all of the timeframes in Revelation in a previous post, number 297 in this thread, to you. In my following post I will provide a chart having them all.

I show on my chart what begins the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27

The confirming of the covenant for 7 years is a speech required by Moses of all future leaders of Israel, on a 7 years interval, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. I reference Deuteronomy 31:9-13 on my chart.

There is no future 70th week, it was fulfilled by Christ.

260 days, 42 weeks and time times and half afre all equal to 3½ years.

Messiah was cut off after 7 + 62 weeks. What comes after 69? He was cut off during the 70th week, after 69.
 
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mkgal1

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Prophecy awaiting fulfilment.
Psalms 18:11-15 is another description of the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
You left off verse 13: The Lord thundered from the heavens...sending down hail and glowing coals.
This; and other verses, prove the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath is some time before the Return.
The parallel to Psalm 18 is 2 Samuel 22. This is David's Psalm of praise for rescuing him from his enemies including Saul.

God Is Always at Work for Us and for Our Good Psalm 18 is a psalm of David, a song celebrating “the day when the LORD rescued him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul.” This psalm, the longest of Book One, praises God for His deliverance. It is also recorded, with slight differences, in 2 Samuel 22. At the center of this psalm is a strong confession of faith: “With the merciful you show yourself merciful” (v. 25).

On each side of this central meditation on faithfulness we have the record of God’s powerful help for David (vv. 7–19; 30–45). Each of these two sections has its own character. Verses 7–19 emphasize the work of God to save David. Verses 30–45 highlight David’s success as God worked through him.​
 
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keras

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The parallel to Psalm 18 is 2 Samuel 22. This is David's Psalm of praise for rescuing him from Saul.

God Is Always at Work for Us and for Our Good
The parallel to Psalms 18:7-15 and 2 Samuel 22:8-16, is the Sixth Seal event, yet to happen.
David was a prophet, what he wrote in those two scriptures and in many other Psalms, never happened in his day. But it does fit with the over 100 other prophesies about the next prophesied event we can expect; the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.
 
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claninja

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The parallel to Psalms 18:7-15 and 2 Samuel 22:8-16, is the Sixth Seal event, yet to happen.
David was a prophet, what he wrote in those two scriptures and in many other Psalms, never happened in his day. But it does fit with the over 100 other prophesies about the next prophesied event we can expect; the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.

This seems to be a personal interpretation as the context of 2 Samuel 22:8-16 is the defeat of David’s enemies and Saul, not the 6th seal.

And David spoke to the Lord the words of this song on the day when the Lord delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul.
2 Samuel 22:1 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Samuel 22:1 - English Standard Version
 
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jgr

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The parallel to Psalms 18:7-15 and 2 Samuel 22:8-16, is the Sixth Seal event, yet to happen.
David was a prophet, what he wrote in those two scriptures and in many other Psalms, never happened in his day. But it does fit with the over 100 other prophesies about the next prophesied event we can expect; the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.

There are over fifty English Bible translations today, including the venerables of Wycliffe and Calvin.

Not one translation, including your beloved version (Revised English?), renders the Psalm and 2 Samuel passages in the future tense.

Over fifty translators were and are unanimous in recognizing what you do not.

To wit, that David was describing in dramatic metaphor his dramatic deliverance.

At that time, then and there.

Whether or not you believe him.

Try to believe him.
 
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mkgal1

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ISTM that a person just needs to read 2 Samuel, in context, to see that it wasn't a future prophetic word. Even just a few surrounding verses seem to bring that to light (otherwise - David is still waiting to be saved from his enemies):

2 Samuel 22:4-9 ~
I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised;

so shall I be saved from my enemies
.5For the waves of death engulfed me;

the torrents of chaos overwhelmed me.6The cords of Sheol entangled me;

the snares of death confronted me.7In my distress I called upon the LORD;

I cried out to my God.

And from His temple He heard my voice,

and my cry for help reached His ears
.8Then the earth shook and quaked;

the foundations of the heavensa trembled;

they were shaken because He burned with anger.9Smoke rose from His nostrils,

and consuming fire came from His mouth;

glowing coals flamed forth
 
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sovereigngrace

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You can't get around Zechariah 14:4-5, the mount of olives has not been split. And Jesus is returning in those verses to rescue the blood descended Jews in Jerusalem, to escape harm as they did in the days of forefathers when Uzziah was king of Judah.

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermix literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. At the cross there was destruction, after the cross there was destruction. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw by the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

There are about five hundred references to mountains and hills in Scripture. The Bible refers to both the physical reality of actual geographical locations and also equally uses them as spiritual symbols.

Mountains and hills of course refer to literal landscapes in Scripture, but they are also used as symbols to declare the nature of God or divine truth. God and His love are compared to the mountains and hills in Scripture. Psalm 125:2 states: “As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.” Psalm 121:1 declares: “I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.” Psalm 36:6: “Thy righteousness is like the great mountains.” Psalm 76:4: “Thou art more glorious and excellent than the mountains of prey.”

Mountains and hills can be joyful (Psalm 65:12, 89:12, 98:8), they can skip and leap (Psalm 114:4, 6), they can sing (Isiah 44:23 & 55:12). The prophets Ezekiel and Micah spoke to the mountains and picture God doing the same (Ezekiel 6:3, Ezekiel 36:4 & 6, Micah 6:1–2).

The majesty and power of kingdoms are often identified in Scripture with the magnificent and splendor of mountains.
Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

This prophecy did not in any way insinuate that John was arriving with a great earth-remover in order to flatten “every mountain and hill” around Jerusalem, nor to fill in the natural valleys that surrounded the city. No. Like Luke, Zechariah was not looking for physical change in the geographical terrain of natural Israel. He was simply speaking in figurative hyperbole describing what God wanted to do in the hearts of the people. He was articulating the colossal impact the coming of Christ’s kingdom had upon the earth.

We see the same idea presented in Isaiah 41:14-15: “Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.”

Commentators see a connection between this and assignment of John the Baptist. They take this as denoting the successful spread of the Gospel by faithful Israel and it conquering of nations and kingdoms. Zechariah is seen challenging a mountain in Zechariah 4:7, declaring: “Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain.” The mountain here seems to symbolize a wicked resisting power or powers. The prophet predicts that they will be brought low.

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. The references to topographical changes are therefore figurative. This kind of language is common throughout the Old Testament. It’s talking about spiritual things and in fact we know that because John the Baptist was the fulfilment of the one where every mountain shall be brought low and every valley exalted.

Micah 1:3-5 said of Christ: “For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem?”

In Micah 1:3 we are told that God “is coming forth from His place” to “come down and tread on the high places of the earth.” This descriptive language is no different from the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives with the result that it will split. It was not uncommon for prophets to use figurative expressions about the Lord coming down, mountains trembling, being scattered, and hills bowing (Habakkuk 3:6, 10); mountains flowing down at his presence (Isaiah 64:1, 3); or mountains and hills singing and the trees clapping their hands” (Isaiah 55:12).

This passage is portraying the great global expanse of the Gospel. Jehovah God would no longer be limited to one small nation in the Middle East. Indeed “the LORD shall be king over all the earth.” When Christ came He ushered the great evangelization of the nations. Nations that were once hopelessly outside of Christ and outside of hope would now, in this Gospel age, experience God in a very personal and living way. He is now the Lord of the nations. The heathen have been embracing Him in their millions for years. Jew and Gentile are all one in Christ now. There is no longer any division between the two. There is one Lord and Savior of all the earth.

Jesus used similar language in Matthew 17:20-21: “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”

Mountains are shown here to be moved by simple faith. Obviously, they are not literal. This correlates with Isaiah 40:3-5, Micah 1:3-5 and Zechariah 14:4.

Anyway, Christ has already come and set His feet upon the Mount of Olives and established true worship by the working and ministry of the Holy Spirit (as rivers of living water) throughout the earth. Matthew 26:30-31, 27:50-51 says, “And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written (in Zechariah 13:7 speaking of Christ’s earthly ministry), I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad ... Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent."

We can see this great eternal atonement that Christ made caused an earthquake to shake Jerusalem that affected the whole terrain.

Even Tertullian the Early Church Father who was Chiliast recognized Zechariah 14 as an historic passage fulfilled at the first advent, saying, “But ‘at night He went out to the Mount of Olives.' For thus had Zechariah pointed out: 'And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives' [Zech. xiv. 4]." ("Tertullian Against Marcion," Book 4, chapter XL)

The splitting of the Mount of Olives so that God's people could escape to safety sounds similar to Christ saying faith can move mountains. It is also like God's people passing through the Red Sea.
 
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