Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

thomas_t

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You missed "follow".

"Following are all of the relevant references to the elect(ion) which follow Romans 11."
oh yes, you're right. I got that wrong. Thank you for the correction.
All the verses you cited addressed salvation for individuals. There is no contradiction with my interpretation of Romans 11 (group level).
"Brethren" is a collective noun i.e. a group.
I interpret this one as meaning them as a sum of individuals. Peter (Paul) means "you and you and you and..."
Let's compare it to tennis (I had the privilege of playing some tennis before, thanks to God).
There are singles and doubles.
You could feel tempted to think that the best double in the world is comprised of the best singles players in the world? Totally wrong.
For a double in tennis is more than...
the collection of individually chosen persons
as you say.
In double, the two are interacting with each other becoming a team. It's not just tennis player 1 + tennis player 2.
In contrast, when Paul says "brethren" he means brother 1 + brother 2 + ...
It's just that.
Thomas
 
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jgr

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oh yes, you're right. I got that wrong. Thank you for the correction.
All the verses you cited addressed salvation for individuals. There is no contradiction with my interpretation of Romans 11 (group level).

I interpret this one as meaning them as a sum of individuals. Peter (Paul) means "you and you and you and..."
Let's compare it to tennis (I had the privilege of playing some tennis before, thanks to God).
There are singles and doubles.
You could feel tempted to think that the best double in the world is comprised of the best singles players in the world? Totally wrong.
For a double in tennis is more than...

as you say.
In double, the two are interacting with each other becoming a team. It's not just tennis player 1 + tennis player 2.
In contrast, when Paul says "brethren" he means brother 1 + brother 2 + ...
It's just that.
Thomas

A group does not exist independently of the individuals who comprise it.

group

Definitions
from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
  • noun An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation.
  • noun A set of two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture.
  • noun A number of individuals or things considered or classed together because of similarities.
 
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sovereigngrace

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A group does not exist independently of the individuals who comprise it.

group

Definitions
from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.
  • noun An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation.
  • noun A set of two or more figures that make up a unit or design, as in sculpture.
  • noun A number of individuals or things considered or classed together because of similarities.

It all sounds like political doublespeak to justify and unbiblical doctrine. LOL
 
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jgr

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It all sounds like political doublespeak to justify and unbiblical doctrine. LOL

Yeah, no disrespect to Thomas, but dispensationalism is a classic example of "interpretation by imagination/hallucination".

Enough to make any cult envious.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg

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It all sounds like political doublespeak to justify and unbiblical doctrine. LOL
You can't get around Zechariah 14:4-5, the mount of olives has not been split. And Jesus is returning in those verses to rescue the blood descended Jews in Jerusalem, to escape harm as they did in the days of forefathers when Uzziah was king of Judah.
 
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keras

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Who is the House of Israel?

A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.


Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26


The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.

If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7


In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.


God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!

An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.

This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27


The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14 The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever or the Jews are the only Israel.
 
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mkgal1

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There is no hiding from Zechariah 14:4-5, the mount of olives has not been split.
This is ancient Hebrew poetic language. It's not literal. The OT is full of phrases like this. Just a couple examples:

Psalm 97:5 ~ The mountains melt like wax at the presence of the LORD, before the Lord of all the earth.

Micah 1:1-9 ~ Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem (725 BC - 722 BC )
Destruction in Israel and Judah
1The word of the LORD which came to Micah of Moresheth in the days of Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.

2Hear, O peoples, all of you;
Listen, O earth and all it contains,
And let the Lord GOD be a witness against you,
The Lord from His holy temple.

3For behold, the LORD is coming forth from His place.
He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth.

4The mountains will melt under Him
And the valleys will be split,
Like wax before the fire,
Like water poured down a steep place.

5All this is for the rebellion of Jacob
And for the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the rebellion of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
What is the high place of Judah?
Is it not Jerusalem?

Micah 1:1 - The Doom of Samaria and Jerusalem
 
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David Kent

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Remember that Matthew, Mark and Luke were all speaking about the destruction of the temple which Jesus mentioned in Matthdew 23.
Matthew 24:15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mark 13:14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Luke 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

If you read them carefully you will see that they are all describing the same event (Despite what you have been taught) Why the difference? M & M were addressing the Jewish Christians who knew what it meant and described it carefull to avoid persecution from the leaders as had they said that Roman armies would come to surround the city, it would have invited persecution. The Christian readers would understand. Luke, on the other hand was writing from outsisde Juda and to a Gentile, Theophilus, to explain what Christians believed Theophilus would not have known what the abomination of desolation was.
 
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David Kent

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We were talking about dates. Actual Biblical time periods and known historical dates.
Facts and scriptures are what we should concentrate on.
Ok. Do you understand that the decree in Daniel 9, was by Cyrus, Darius, Artaxerxes or another. Do you understnd that the period of the Judges was 450 years?
 
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Douggg

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mkgal1

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So John the Baptizer was wrong when he declared this about Jesus? Where's his exception clause recorded?

John 1:29 ~ The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

 
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Douggg

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So John the Baptizer was wrong when he declared this about Jesus? Where's his exception clause recorded?

John 1:29 ~ The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

no. But I don't see the connection you are making with the prophecy about Israel in Ezekiel 39:7.
 
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mkgal1

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no. But I don't see the connection you are making with the prophecy about Israel in Ezekiel 39:7.
Jesus fulfilled that prophecy. He restored His People (Israel = People of God).....and brought "life" to their "dry bones".

Quoting from linked article: Ezekiel promises that a new king will come to reunify one people under a new covenant by the transforming power of the Spirit.

A New Shepherd-King

Chapter 34

Ezekiel 34 begins with God’s accusations against the shepherds of Israel who served themselves at the expense of the sheep. Ezekiel chooses this “shepherd/sheep” metaphor to explain the relationship between Israel’s kings and God’s people.


In verses 11-16
Ezekiel 34:11-16


The Restoration of Israel

11For thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day. 13I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. 14I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest,” declares the Lord God. 16“I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgment.



More
, Ezekiel paints beautiful imagery of Yahweh reinstating himself as Israel’s shepherd-king. Israel’s kings had failed, but Yahweh would not. He promises to undo all the damage inflicted upon Israel by bringing them back from the uttermost parts of the earth into a land filled with plenty. The repetitive language in verse 16
Ezekiel 34:16


emphasizes the divine action that would accompany full restoration: “I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them in justice.” Do you see the stark contrast between verse 4
and verse 16? Yahweh will get done what the leaders had failed to do.
~ The "Gospel" of Ezekiel | The Bible Project
 
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David Kent

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Yes that happened in Jerusalem in AD 70, when the Jews swere led captive and dispersed amongst all kingdoms, fulfilling Deut 28, which says they would be made slaves with no one to buy them. Josephus tells that there were so many slaves that the price of slaves crashed throughout the empire. Some were sent to the mines in Egypt also fullfilling part of Deut 28.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

The end of what? The end of the Jewish economy.
 
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mkgal1

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The Roman armies did set up their standards in the temple and worshipped them.
Exactly. And that was an abomination according to the Law (worshiping the ensigns was idolatry).

Also, from what I've read - there was a "pagan" sacrifice next to the synagogue in Caesarea. Jerusalem authorities then decided to end all sacrifices and allowed Roman troops to raid the temple treasury. That was in AD 66 (3.5 years prior to the destruction of Jerusalem - 1290 days?) Temple Events


John Denton, of the UK-based Bible Research and Investigation Company, offers the following chart in an effort to show that these time references played out precisely as stated in the Jewish/Roman War (Todd Dennis [18], 2009)
sn850132.jpg
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yeah, no disrespect to Thomas, but dispensationalism is a classic example of "interpretation by imagination/hallucination".

Enough to make any cult envious.

I agree. It is shocking hermeneutics.
 
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Douggg

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