Is Calvinism Just?

Rusviking876 · Dec 17, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and I will kindly ask that everyone please just stick to the topic of the thread. We’re not here to interpret scriptures, we can go round and round all day and never accomplish anything that way because everyone has their own opinions on scripture interpretation. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.

The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.

n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man

So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter? If God’s judgment is unjust then we are forced to conclude that Calvin’s theology is incorrect because God is incapable of being unjust.

The enemy is eager to whisper into men’s ears that they are unforgivable, irredeemable, destined for hell.

faroukfarouk · Dec 19, 2019

Kate30 said:
Thats correct for God did know his own before the world began. But God still does have foreknowledge of the future.

Hi, @Kate30 ; I do think matters of Divine sovereignty should be approached with the humble spirit of Job, when He said: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" (Job 13.15). Starting from a secular notion of what is supposedly "fair" and then trying to foist it on God, would frankly be a profoundly unBiblical approach.

Kate30 · Dec 19, 2019

faroukfarouk said:
Hi, @Kate30 ; I do think matters of Divine sovereignty should be approached with the humble spirit of Job, when He said: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" (Job 13.15). Starting from a secular notion of what is supposedly "fair" and then trying to foist it on God, would frankly be a profoundly unBiblical approach.

Farouk thank you for your reply. You do think on the matters of Divine sovereignty that we should always approach this with the humble spirit of Job: your quote being ( Job 13:15 ) Farouk that’s just fine as we all do have our favourite bible characters as examples to guide us through the darkest of times. Though mine may be some different to yours. Which would be humbly relying on the Spirit of truth as mentioned in St John 16:13 ( Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth ) As to the rest of your reply you did say ( Starting from a secular notion of what supposedly is fair and than trying to foist it on God, would frankly be a profoundly unbiblical approach. ) Farouk I would agree with all those points. Though I’m rather perplexed why you have aimed the question at me. All I ever said is that God has always known his own before the world began. And that he does know the future as well simply because he is God and God does know all things. I do find nothing profoundly unbiblical about that.

faroukfarouk · Dec 19, 2019

Kate30 said:
Farouk thank you for your reply. You do think on the matters of Divine sovereignty that we should always approach this with the humble spirit of Job: your quote being ( Job 13:15 ) Farouk that’s just fine as we all do have our favourite bible characters as examples to guide us through the darkest of times. Though mine may be some different to yours. Which would be humbly relying on the Spirit of truth as mentioned in St John 16:13 ( Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth ) As to the rest of your reply you did say ( Starting from a secular notion of what supposedly is fair and than trying to foist it on God, would frankly be a profoundly unbiblical approach. ) Farouk I would agree with all those points. Though I’m rather perplexed why you have aimed the question at me. All I ever said is that God has always known his own before the world began. And that he does know the future as well simply because he is God and God does know all things. I do find nothing profoundly unbiblical about that.

Oh I wasn't contradicting anything you said. Kind of jumping into a discussion which was partly about Divine sovereignty, I suppose.

So do you have a Chinese heritage? I know some fine Chinese Christians.

Kate30 · Dec 19, 2019

faroukfarouk said:
Oh I wasn't contradicting anything you said. Kind of jumping into a discussion which was partly about Divine sovereignty, I suppose.

So do you have a Chinese heritage? I know some fine Chinese Christians.

Farouk I’m sure with 52 pages on this post alone you shall find much of interest as you sift through the many differing veiws. No I’m not Chinese. Though I probably do have some Chinese origins along with some Japanese and even some United Nations origins as well. All did pay a visit to the homeland at some time. Wishing you a nice day

hhodgson · Feb 11, 2020

Opps, wrong thread

CharismaticLady · Feb 11, 2020

I only care what Jesus thinks about Luther and Calvin.

The Dead Church
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead (Martin Luther and John Calvin). 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy (Jacob Arminius and John Wesley). 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

Archivist · Feb 12, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
I only care what Jesus thinks about Luther and Calvin.

The Dead Church
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead (Martin Luther and John Calvin). 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy (Jacob Arminius and John Wesley). 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’

Interesting. I don’t see Calvin, Luther, Arminian or Wesley’s names in my Bible.

CharismaticLady · Feb 12, 2020

Archivist said:
Interesting. I don’t see Calvin, Luther, Arminian or Wesley’s names in my Bible.

You may not have aqua print either.

Knowing what these men taught, and also church history, it is plain as day who taught nothing, even sin, can separate us from God, and who taught holiness as the apostles did.

Which one is more attractive to those in darkness? Sin or holiness? 1 John 1:6

Archivist · Feb 12, 2020

CharismaticLady said:
You may not have aqua print either.

Knowing what these men taught, and also church history, it is plain as day who taught nothing, even sin, can separate us from God, and who taught holiness as the apostles did.

Which one is more attractive to those in darkness? Sin or holiness? 1 John 1:6

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but that is all you are giving us. There is, in fact, nothing in Scripture that specifically identifies Luther or Calvin as being "in darkness."

For the record, I like John Wesley. He supported abolitionism and female preachers and, despite the fact that many of those who followed his teachings were teetotalers, he was apparently a good beer drinker, encouraging experimentation in the role of hops in the brewing of beer. I'm sure he and Luther would have agreed on that point.

Bruce Leiter · Feb 12, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and I will kindly ask that everyone please just stick to the topic of the thread. We’re not here to interpret scriptures, we can go round and round all day and never accomplish anything that way because everyone has their own opinions on scripture interpretation. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.

The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.

n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man

So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter? If God’s judgment is unjust then we are forced to conclude that Calvin’s theology is incorrect because God is incapable of being unjust.

I came to believe in the Bible as God's Word and the Reformed faith as the best way to interpret it according to its own assumptions and teachings rather than human reasoning trying to impose itself on the Bible. In other words, the central tenets of Calvinism accept the fact that the Bible presents several mysteries about God that cannot be logically deduced. For example, the God of that inspired book is three Persons in one God. Now, most Christian groups acknowledge that Mystery without trying to figure it out.

The same thing is true about the truths that you are questioning. The Bible and Calvin teach that God is the Ruler of his created universe and that he chose before he made anyone who he would rescue from the mess humanity got themselves into (Ephesians 1:1-14; Romans 8:28-36). As the Creator, he has every right to choose some to rescue and let others choose their own destiny. That was and is God's plan.

However, it is just as true that humans beginning with humanity's head, Adam, chose to do their own thing. When Adam fell, the rest of the humans fell out of God the Judge's favor. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, as Paul says in Romans 3:23. In Romans, Paul first says that we're all guilty and worthy of hell (Romans 1:16--3:20). Then, he presents God's salvation of grace through faith (3:21--11:36). Finally, he gives us his inspired commands for our lives of gratitude (12:1-the end), which we can only do in the power of Jesus' victory.

The same pattern in condensed form is in Ephesians 2:1-3, 4-9, and 10. The short form of it is that God has his plans which he will carry out, and humans are fully responsible for all of their actions. God isn't responsible for humans' rebellion; they are. Read Romans 9 about how humans question their Creator; it's a lot like pottery questioning the potter about his actions.

The bottom line is that Calvinism accepts the Bible's mysteries, which it doesn't try to reason out. John Calvin was right when he said that we should go as far as the Bible goes and then stop. I suggest that you get and read a copy of John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. By and large, he follows his own advice.

lismore · Feb 12, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

Grace by definition is undeserved. I assume you're one who has received the grace of God. So why worry? Be happy

CharismaticLady · Feb 12, 2020

lismore said:
Grace by definition is undeserved. I assume you're one who has received the grace of God. So why worry? Be happy

That definition is because Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners in order to take away our sin to make us worthy. He has taken us from sinner to child of God. John 8:34-36. Jesus causes that grace that we received undeservedly, and turns it into the "power of God" to cause us who don't quench the Spirit to be overcomers.

BNR32FAN · Feb 13, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
I came to believe in the Bible as God's Word and the Reformed faith as the best way to interpret it according to its own assumptions and teachings rather than human reasoning trying to impose itself on the Bible. In other words, the central tenets of Calvinism accept the fact that the Bible presents several mysteries about God that cannot be logically deduced. For example, the God of that inspired book is three Persons in one God. Now, most Christian groups acknowledge that Mystery without trying to figure it out.

The same thing is true about the truths that you are questioning. The Bible and Calvin teach that God is the Ruler of his created universe and that he chose before he made anyone who he would rescue from the mess humanity got themselves into (Ephesians 1:1-14; Romans 8:28-36). As the Creator, he has every right to choose some to rescue and let others choose their own destiny. That was and is God's plan.

However, it is just as true that humans beginning with humanity's head, Adam, chose to do their own thing. When Adam fell, the rest of the humans fell out of God the Judge's favor. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, as Paul says in Romans 3:23. In Romans, Paul first says that we're all guilty and worthy of hell (Romans 1:16--3:20). Then, he presents God's salvation of grace through faith (3:21--11:36). Finally, he gives us his inspired commands for our lives of gratitude (12:1-the end), which we can only do in the power of Jesus' victory.

The same pattern in condensed form is in Ephesians 2:1-3, 4-9, and 10. The short form of it is that God has his plans which he will carry out, and humans are fully responsible for all of their actions. God isn't responsible for humans' rebellion; they are. Read Romans 9 about how humans question their Creator; it's a lot like pottery questioning the potter about his actions.

The bottom line is that Calvinism accepts the Bible's mysteries, which it doesn't try to reason out. John Calvin was right when he said that we should go as far as the Bible goes and then stop. I suggest that you get and read a copy of John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. By and large, he follows his own advice.

Bless you my friend, you say that Calvin does not try to reason out the Bible’s mysteries but reasoning is how we compare evidence. There are many passages of scripture that directly contradict Calvin’s theology, one of which being that God is just. You say that God’s judgement on man is just which I agree with but not according to Calvin’s theology. Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity teaches that man is incapable of repentance and therefore incapable of meeting God’s expectations. The Bible however teaches that man’s condemnation is the result of his stubbornness and unwillingness to repent. A person cannot be considered unwilling to comply with something that is impossible for him to accomplish or adhere to. Furthermore a person cannot be held accountable for failure to meet impossible expectations. The only way that man can be considered to be stubborn and unwilling is if he is capable of compliance but chooses not to which would then make God’s judgement upon man just since he is capable of meeting God’s expectations.

Is Calvinism Just?

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