The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

redleghunter said:

Well they are out of context. Three verses from three different epistles in the New Testament. That's the very definition of "out of context." Now you want me to do your work in providing the exegesis of all three sources in context.

That is correct...You can make whatever OP you want. You can even provide three verses from three different epistles and three different writers and assert a statement to be true.

But I do agree with your assertion that the New Covenant is 'conditional' but for many other reasons. The New Covenant is conditional on the Blood of Jesus Christ. If he fails, we all fail. And He will never fail because cover to cover of the Bible is that God keeps every Promise He swears by. That's in Hebrews too, all over that epistle, but no one would know that reading your OP.

To highlight that the New Covenant is based on the will of God and Jesus Christ?

John 1: NASB

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

So really you have to prove that the will of God is thwarted in who becomes a child of God. Because clearly above this is not according to the will of the flesh (our will), nor of the will of man, But of God. And notice the language in verse 12. It does not say 'as many as accepted Him" but "as many as received Him."

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This is not really addressing the three verses that I put forth. You said that I have taken them out of context, but you did not show how this is so. Again, offer a word for word commentary on the three verses in the OP. Why do you think they are not speaking conditionally in relation to our salvation?

You talk about the blood of Christ:

My first verse in the OP (i.e. 1 John 1:7) addresses the condition of having the blood of Christ cleansing us from all sin. Do you know what that condition is? It is.....

"IF we walk in the light as he is in the light...." (1 John 1:7).

If... is in the verse. If....If....If....; If is a conditional clause. This does not describe somebody already saved who will automatically walk in the light. John is saying to believers..... IF we walk in the light.... the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. That is how the blood is continually applied to our Christian life. "Walking in the light" is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. This makes sense because we can know the difference between the children of God, vs. those who are of the children of the devil by the fact that those who do not righteousness, and who do not love their brother are not of God (See: 1 John 3:10). Also, 1 John 3:15 says he that hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. Verses like these really do not make a whole lick of sense in Unconditional Salvation. Are you of the belief that a believer cannot stumble into hating their brother?

Al Touthentop said:

It isn't salvation that is described as a free gift, it is Christ's sacrifice which he freely gave. And really, if you read the Greek text, you'll discover that the word free is one that is added by translators. It is redundant.

If salvation were indeed a free gift, then there wouldn't even be a requirement to believe. Simple logic refutes that. God didn't provide an illogical, incomprehensible plan of salvation. He gave us minds and the ability to reason. And he called those who searched the scriptures with open minds "more honorable" than those who fail to use their reason and reject the truth without even examining it.

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I believe salvation is a free gift (by God's grace through faith in Christ, believing in the gospel, and in seeking forgiveness with Jesus by way of prayer), but life teaches us that gifts come with responsibilities in taking care of them. If not, then we can lose those gifts. For example: A man may pray for a wife for many years, and when God answers his prayers, he could regard his wife as a gift from God. Now, does that mean that he can be unfaithful to his wife in whom he considers as a gift from God? Surely not. If the woman had a sense integrity: He would not be in a marriage for very long if he were to be unfaithful to her (and she found out about his continual unfaithfulness). We have to be loyal to the King after we changed our allegiance from out of the kingdom of darkness. We have to keep His commandments (i.e. the NT commands not the OT commands) as a part of eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28) (Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 6:46).

Anyways, the important point I want to make here is that salvation is CONDITIONAL. The three verses in my OP proves this fact. Many do not agree with the plain written words of these verses or they simply ignore them in favor of other verses that appear to fit their belief that is more comforting.

Al Touthentop said:

If salvation is conditional, then it isn't itself the free gift. The sacrifice was a free gift and it is what makes remission possible. But even achieving or getting the benefit of that is conditional as is our receiving of eternal life after the day of Judgement.

God gave his son freely. Nobody can change that. But not everyone gets the benefit of that gift unless they do what was required to receive it, namely, obeying the gospel. That doesn't make the gift earned because the works God required us to do to receive salvation are not "of yourselves." God designed those works before the foundation of the world for us to walk in. There is no cause for boasting in doing them and there is no payment for doing them.

But we also have to remain in them in order to keep ourselves "in Christ" as the scriptures make clear.

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The gift is more than just Jesus dying on the cross for us to pay the price for our sin. The gift also includes His resurrection, as well. For the resurrection conquers the penalty of sin (Which is death), and by it, we will be able to have eternal life (literally) by being resurrected physically. The gift also includes His granting of His forgiveness to us by admitting that we sinned against God, and by calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation by way of prayer. This is ALL God's grace through faith (That is the gift of God). We receive this gift one time like all gifts. But like in real life, gifts come with responsibilities. A son who received a brand new car from his father cannot go out and run red lights, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians, otherwise they are not going to keep their free gift for very long.

Al Touthentop said:

If salvation is conditional, then it isn't itself the free gift. The sacrifice was a free gift and it is what makes remission possible. But even achieving or getting the benefit of that is conditional as is our receiving of eternal life after the day of Judgement.

God gave his son freely. Nobody can change that. But not everyone gets the benefit of that gift unless they do what was required to receive it, namely, obeying the gospel. That doesn't make the gift earned because the works God required us to do to receive salvation are not "of yourselves." God designed those works before the foundation of the world for us to walk in. There is no cause for boasting in doing them and there is no payment for doing them.

But we also have to remain in them in order to keep ourselves "in Christ" as the scriptures make clear.

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Receiving a gift is also conditional. There was somebody I know who recently rejected my gift I mailed to them. I found out that they don't like to receive gifts. Maintaining the gift by taking care of it is also a condition, as well.

redleghunter said:

1 John 1: NASB

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

Operative to this passage is a comparison between those in the Light and those who are not.

Meaning we are either children of God projecting His Light or we are not. Another "Litmus test" affirmation. I used this passage in response to an atheist yesterday. He said we can interpret all sorts of things and that one could not say "what is true Christianity." I offered him this passage (actually the entire epistle) and discussed chapter 4 at greater length.

But what is not in this passage is anything about walking in the Light and then losing that Light and walking in darkness. The apostle John in this epistle is dichotomic throughout this epistle. It is an either/or and no mixture. Very concrete, very Hebrew in thought.

Also notice verse 6 above which comes before your quoted verse 7. It is prefaced as "If we say" which just adds to the concrete dichotomic argument of the passage.

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Hebrews 3: NASB

12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”

16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​

Operative to this passage is unbelief. That God would not fulfill His promises. Holding fast to the beginning of our assurance is just that, believing and having Trust Christ has accomplished all for our salvation by God's Grace through faith (focused and major theme throughout the New Testament). Also the major theme in Hebrews as the writer compares the inadequacy of the Old Covenant compared to the New Covenant. Why did the writer of Hebrews make these comparisons and contrasts throughout his epistle? Because there were those in that church community who were going back to the old ways not trusting in the complete Finished Work of Jesus Christ as our atoning sacrifice.

To mingle the Atonement of Christ with some of the Old covenant ceremonial laws was indeed an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God and has not held fast to the beginning of their assurance. What is this assurance? Eternal life through the Work of Jesus Christ. The interesting part of the language used is:
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For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,​

Notice, we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast to the beginning of our assurance. It is an affirmative statement as in "the one who endures to the end will be saved." Again a "litmus" statement that those who have the assurance will endure to the end. What you are teaching here is that we cannot have assurances of the Promises of God. This is a false gospel the writer of Hebrews is actually teaching against.​

Condition of Salvation: If we hold from the beginning our confidence stedfast unto the end.


Jason, before I respond to your proof text can you opine back to me on what the general theme of Paul's epistle to the Galatians entails? Meaning what was his purpose and scope for writing to the Galatians. What made him pick up the 'paper and pen' to write such a scathing letter to a church he planted?

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You completely undid what 1 John 1:7 is saying. You cannot have the words "IF we walk in the light" in there if they are automatically walking in the light. You want 1 John 1:7 to say.... "Those who walk in the light who are the Elected chosen by God.... etc, etc." Again, basic English and grammar here. "IF we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."

For example:
Rick can say to Bob, "If I come over your house tomorrow, I will fix your wagon." This is not a guarantee. It is conditional. Rick is giving a condition that IF.... he comes over Bob's house, he will fix his wagon. If Rick does not come over Bob's house, the wagon will not be fixed by Rick. Again, I am asking you to give a word for word commentary on 1 John 1:7. What does the "If we walk in the light" mean to you? Is not John refer to the word "we" as "believers"? If we (the believers) are automatically always walking in the light, then John would NEVER say IF.... "we walk in the light" thereby suggesting that we cannot walk in the light. John saying IF we walk in the light is a condition. IF. If is a condition.

Carl Emerson said:

Each of the three verses are underpinned by God's grace.

Keeping the three 'if's' you present are possible to accomplish because of the abilities He gives us.

Even being able to read them is a gift from Him.

Being able to understand what they mean is a gift from Him.

All Glory to Him for all we can do including obeying Him.

All else is pride.

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In 1 John 1:7: The word "if" is suggesting that one may not be able to walk in the light. For the word "if" suggests a possibility and not a guarantee. If so, then that means the blood of Jesus is not cleansing a believer of all sin "if" they do not do so during the time that they are not walking in the light. For the condition is: "If we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin."

Do you even know what "walking in the light" means?

redleghunter said:

You asserted your idea of those verses supporting your theme of conditionality. Big difference. None of those verses even mention salvation. But they do allude to or firmly state unbelief in the Gospel.

Yet the 'verse rodeo' only accomplishes one thing...It makes the argument that the Bible has serious contradictions. Why? Because I can easily address your challenge to the other poster by showing you the Preservation of the saints (just a few):

John 6:37-39, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

Phil. 1:6, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”

1 Thess. 5:23-24, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.”

2 Tim. 4:18, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

1 Peter 1:23, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

Ephesians 2:10, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

1Pet 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Actually you did not offer any context yet demand it of others.

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So the 3 verses in my OP are not talking about salvation?

1 John 1:7 talks about the blood of Jesus cleansing us of all sin based on something that we believers will do (i.e. if we walk in the light).

Surely being cleansed of all sin by Jesus's blood is referring to salvation.

Hebrews 3:13-14 talks about being a partaker of Christ. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Can a person be a partaker with Christ and not be saved? Surely not.

Colossians 1 says,
"yet now He has reconciled
in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—" .... "if you continue in the faith."

We are presented holy, blameless, etc. by Christ's death surely sounds like salvation to me. But the condition here says this applies .... "If you continue in the faith." It does not say, "You WILL continue because you are regenerated."

redleghunter said:

Have you read anything from those guys called the Puritans?

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I don’t need to. The Bible is good enough.