Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Douggg

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Wrong. The abomination of desolation was the Roman armies standing in the Holy place, Jersualem
  • Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The abomination of the pagan Roman armies desolated Jerusalem
Abomination of desolation is not in that group of verses regarding the 70 ad prophecy.

The abomination of desolation doesn't take place until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled and the gospel of the kingdom taken to the whole earth. Parable of the fig tee in Luke 21, indicates when the Kingdom of God is near.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

You, as we all, are still in our earthly bodies right now. But their redemption is near.
 
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sovereigngrace

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That depends on whether you believe the accepted Chronology. I believe that the Hebrew date is nearer, Thursday, 19 December 2019 = 21st of Kislev, 5780

This whole theory is moot. The early Chiliasts placed the Lord's life at 5500. Every date that Premils set comes to naught and drives people away from the doctrine. The year 2000 pushed many into the Amil camp because so much was made of the year that was fanciful. Premils move the goalposts when there in fact is zero biblical corroboration for all its fundamentals.
 
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jgr

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Romans 11:28 speaks of enemies of the Gospel being elected, as I told you. Ironically, you even cite it.

Hi T,

I presume you would agree that Scripture is its own best interpreter.

Following are all of the relevant references to the elect(ion) which follow Romans 11.

You'll notice that there are no enemies expressed or implied therein. Rather, they refer exclusively to believers in Christ.

Notice the similarity between 1 Thessalonians 1:4 and Romans 11:28.

The beloved election in the latter are the same as the beloved election in the former.


Is not Romans 11:28 accurately interpreted by these references?


Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 John 1:1
The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 John 1:13
The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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keras

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Oh and what date was that?
586 BCE, was when Jerusalem was conquered and the Temple destroyed by the Babylonian army.
This whole theory is moot. The early Chiliasts placed the Lord's life at 5500. Every date that Premils set comes to naught and drives people away from the doctrine. The year 2000 pushed many into the Amil camp because so much was made of the year that was fanciful. Premils move the goalposts when there in fact is zero biblical corroboration for all its fundamentals.
So, is the 47+ time periods as given in our Bibles, is just a waste of space?
What is fanciful is the guesses and wild assumptions of people before now, incl the Chiliasts, [Whoever they were?] Bishop Ussher, Isaac Newton, and the many more recent, so called experts.
As Daniel 12:6-10 tells us: Only near the end, will a few people understand.
 
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sovereigngrace

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586 BCE, was when Jerusalem was conquered and the Temple destroyed by the Babylonian army.

So, is the 47+ time periods as given in our Bibles, is just a waste of space?
What is fanciful is the guesses and wild assumptions of people before now, incl the Chiliasts, [Whoever they were?] Bishop Ussher, Isaac Newton, and the many more recent, so called experts.
As Daniel 12:6-10 tells us: Only near the end, will a few people understand.

All this is man's little plans, schemes and speculations. It honestly means nothing! Lack of corroboration is what I feel negates Premil.
 
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keras

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All this is man's little plans, schemes and speculations. It honestly means nothing! Lack of corroboration is what I feel negates Premil.
We were talking about dates. Actual Biblical time periods and known historical dates.
Facts and scriptures are what we should concentrate on.
 
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thomas_t

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Good morning SG,
No I'm not fighting against the wording of scripture.

there are two types of Israeli in view in Paul's teaching (between Romans 9-11) that belong to national Israel. [...] you fail to see that they are not all blind. They are not all enemies. There is a chosen remnant - faithful Israel that remain true to God and His Word.
I see this. There are two types of Israelis, indeed. But the faithful remnant can't be meant in Romans 11:28, 'cause the Israel mentioned there are enemies of the Gospel. That's true even if a small part of Israelis are not enemies.
they artificially make a special protected class of sinner – Israeli sinners –
Israel is chosen on the group level, in my opinion. Israelis could be unsaved and belong to a saved group. Both can be true.
Salvation has always been by grace [...].
Jesus Himself splits mankind into two distinct camps (not three) in the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13:38-39: [...]Those who not born again and only have one nature and are described by Jesus in John 8:44 as being of their “father the devil.”
... on the indiviual level, yes. For single persons, there is only salvation by grace.
But note that John 8:44 is not talking about unsaved people in general. The scribes are addressed in this passage.
Premillennialism
I don't even know what that is. Please note I'm also neutral to any teaching about the so-called "rapture", even if people say that a certain stance concerning Israel is needed for a certain teaching concerning raputre.
John the Baptist warned the Jews that anyone that refuses to receive Jesus “the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36).
I didn't negate this. I'm saying Israel is both chosen and their individuals are subjected to God's wrath, I think.
There are not two God’s, two Saviors and two ways of salvation.
One God, one savior, two levels. The individual level and the group level.
You dismiss these crystal clear censures from Jesus, arguing: "it's one specific synagogue he addressing, I think." Well, He actually condemns 2 churches here that had large Jewish communities living around them[...]
I will repeat what I previously said (because you lightly and wrongly dismiss it): "In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Christ [...]
I don't dismiss the censures/ the passage. I dismiss the idea of generalizing this passage as referring to all Jews in general. Even if most of the Jews don't believe in Christ.
Thomas
 
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thomas_t

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Hi J,
Is not Romans 11:28 accurately interpreted by these references?
These references all speak about individually chosen persons. That's different from Romans 11:28.
Following are all of the relevant references to the elect(ion) which follow Romans 11.

You'll notice that there are no enemies expressed or implied therein.
Which Bible are you reading? Read Romans 11:28. It's about enemies.
Thomas
 
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David Kent

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Abomination of desolation is not in that group of verses regarding the 70 ad prophecy.

It is. Matthdew Mark and Luke are all speaking about the same thing, the destruction of Jerusalem. The Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem in AD 66 3½ years before the fall of Jerusalem. You have to separate the two questions in Matthew. The second was not answered till verse 36, beginning with BUT. That indicates a change of subject.
 
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sovereigngrace

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We were talking about dates. Actual Biblical time periods and known historical dates.
Facts and scriptures are what we should concentrate on.

I think it is important to recognize the various recaps in Revelation. Once that happens, Amillennialism easily fits into the scriptural record of the two-age scenario (this age and the age to come). The biblical detail ascribed to the age to come precludes the Premil expectation of the continuation on of sin, sinners, death and decay, Satan and war.
 
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David Kent

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I think it is important to recognize the various recaps in Revelation. Once that happens, Amillennialism easily fits into the scriptural record of the two-age scenario (this age and the age to come). The biblical detail ascribed to the age to come precludes the Premil expectation of the continuation on of sin, sinners, death and decay, Satan and war.
Do you believe there are seven separate visions, each giving the whole history of the church?
 
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David Kent

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29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

The fig tree is not sign except that when you see the fig tree and all the trees (Luke) sprouting then you know summer is on the way, so when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that is the abomination of desolation, then you will know that all these things, the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple are nigh.
 
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jgr

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Hi T,

Hi J,

These references all speak about individually chosen persons. That's different from Romans 11:28.

Does not the collection of individually chosen persons constitute a group?

The majority of the verses I cited encompass many individuals, i.e. the group of the saints.

E.g.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

"Brethren" is a collective noun i.e. a group.

Which Bible are you reading? Read Romans 11:28. It's about enemies.
Thomas

You missed "follow".

"Following are all of the relevant references to the elect(ion) which follow Romans 11."
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi J,

These references all speak about individually chosen persons. That's different from Romans 11:28.

Which Bible are you reading? Read Romans 11:28. It's about enemies.
Thomas

Hi T,



Does not the collection of individually chosen persons constitute a group?

The majority of the verses I cited encompass many individuals, i.e. the group of the saints.

E.g.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

"Brethren" is a collective noun i.e. a group.



You missed "follow".

"Following are all of the relevant references to the elect(ion) which follow Romans 11."

For your inf
Hi J,

These references all speak about individually chosen persons. That's different from Romans 11:28.

Which Bible are you reading? Read Romans 11:28. It's about enemies.
Thomas

The reason why it is difficult to reason with you is that you are obsessed with Romans 11. Your disturbing mantra is: "what saith Romans 11?" It has repeatedly been shown how your interpretation of this lone chapter contradicts numerous other Scripture, yet you quickly dismiss those texts, as if they do not exist. This is the same type of mantra that Premils have with Rev 20. Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. You do the same with Romans 11.

The Christian mode of interpretation should be, like Paul the Apostle asked in Rom 4:3 and Gal 4:30: "what saith the scripture?" This is where your argument falls apart. You have nothing else. What is more, it has been demonstrated by multiple NT Scripture that your understanding of Romans 11 is wrong (in many ways), yet you usually respond by hurling out your evasive theological fly-by sound-bites, as if that addresses the contradictions in your position. It doesn't.

I looked back one week over all your posts, and apart from dismissing Scripture after Scripture that I am others have directed at you, this has been the sum total of your biblical rebuttals:

Romans 11:24: (Post 363).
Romans 11:26: (Posts 304, 334, 392)
Romans 11:27: (Posts 254, 264).
Romans 11:28: (Posts 243, 253, 265, 268, 280, 334, 399, 409).

This is it!

When posters submit detailed rebuttals you complain that there is too much info. It is clear that you have no willingness to exegete any other passage. Dismissal is rather preferred. You must be open to other Scripture for this to move forward.

Because of your obsession with Israel being the elect of God, you impose what you have been taught by your teachers on Romans 11, and you refuse to shift, even though it is clear that only the redeemed of God enjoy the "elect" (the "election") title, are chosen of God and carry His blessing in today. Jgr has ably demonstrated that.
 
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Douggg

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The fig tree is not sign except that when you see the fig tree and all the trees (Luke) sprouting then you know summer is on the way, so when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that is the abomination of desolation, then you will know that all these things, the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple are nigh.
David, please read Daniel 12:11 again. The abomination of desolation is something that is "setup". Something like a idol. Like the image of the beast in Revelation 13.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
 
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Douggg

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There is no hiding from Zechariah 14:4-5, the mount of olives has not been split. And Jesus is returning in those verses to rescue the blood descended Jews in Jerusalem, to escape harm as they did in the days of forefathers when Uzziah was king of Judah.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It is impossible to get around that Jesus will be returning to rescue the Jews, blood descendants of their forefathers in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

The church has not become Israel. Nor Christians have become Jews by virtue of becoming Christians.
 
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thomas_t

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It has repeatedly been shown how your interpretation of this lone chapter contradicts numerous other Scripture, yet you quickly dismiss those texts, as if they do not exist.
No, I don't dismiss the other texts. I compare what you say to what is said in Romans 11. If it's not in accordance with that one it's wrong. Just because it's a Biblical chapter. If l left this chapter out, you could be right.
If your theology contradicts with one little chapter, It's wrong.
Even if it's "only" Romans 11. I'm not obsessed with this chapter though.
My version doesn't dismiss the whole lot of Bible verses cited by you. They are right. I did address your rebuttals, in my opinion, but you couldn't prove me wrong. There are no contradictions in what I say. I don't misunderstand Romans 11. It clearly says there are some enemies getting saved.

In my opinion, you're trying to diprove Romans 11. This can't be right.
When posters submit detailed rebuttals you complain that there is too much info. I
Only if it exceeds 3 pages/ day (2 pages for you please...).
even though it is clear that only the redeemed of God enjoy the "elect" (the "election") title,
on the individual level, yes.

Thomas
 
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sovereigngrace

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No, I don't dismiss the other texts. I compare what you say to what is said in Romans 11. If it's not in accordance with that one it's wrong. Just because it's a Biblical chapter. If l left this chapter out, you could be right.
If your theology contradicts with one little chapter, It's wrong.
Even if it's "only" Romans 11. I'm not obsessed with this chapter though.
My version doesn't dismiss the whole lot of Bible verses cited by you. They are right. I did address your rebuttals, in my opinion, but you couldn't prove me wrong. There are no contradictions in what I say. I don't misunderstand Romans 11. It clearly says there are some enemies getting saved.

In my opinion, you're trying to diprove Romans 11. This can't be right.

Only if it exceeds 3 pages/ day (2 pages for you please...).

on the individual level, yes.

Thomas

  1. Are unregenerate Jews God's chosen people?
  2. Are there 2 peoples of God?
 
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