Number One Flaw in Cessationism

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

swordsman1 said:
I have read it carefully. It plainly says the foreigners heard them speaking in their own language. It can't be much clearer.

There is no mention of any other supernatural ability in Acts 2.

Are you and @Acts2:38 trying to be obtuse or what? ROFL

Read this:

CharismaticLady said:
Let's try this again. Let's say that three disciples were praising God in tongues all at the same time.

One was speaking German.
One was speaking French
One was speaking Japanese.

Three devout Jews were listening but came from different countries.

The Chinaman heard THEM speaking Chinese.
The American heard THEM speaking English.
The Mexican heard THEM speaking Spanish.

Understand? I don't know how to make it any clearer. I thought the highlighting would work, but, oh well.

Not only did the disciples speak supernaturally, the devout Jews heard them supernaturally. My question to you now is how?

Saint Steven · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Right. They were not praying God's will, so He wasn't listening, and they didn't receive anything.

Look at 1 John 5:14-15. It implies that God doesn't always hear us, otherwise we would always get what we prayed for, whether it was His will or not.

Isn't the claim that God can't hear us a violation of his omniscience? (all-knowing) I think you mean something besides "hearing".

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Isn't the claim that God can't hear us a violation of his omniscience? (all-knowing) I think you mean something besides "hearing".

No, its scriptural.

Jeremiah 11:11
11 Therefore thus says the Lord: “Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them.

1 John 5:14-15 uses the word hear, but it is like willfully not listening.

Saint Steven · Dec 18, 2019

Jermayn said:
James 5:14 Are any of you sick? You should call for the elders of the church to come and pray over you, anointing you with oil in the name of the Lord.

I've never seen a cessationist church anoint anyone with oil. Why?

Also, there are people in the world who are possessed by demons. I've never seen or heard of a cessationist church (besides Catholic, if they are considered cessationists) casting out demons. Why did that stop?

That's an interesting question about anointing oil for the sick.

I know many Cessationist churches believe in praying FOR the sick. But fewer actually lay hands on the sick and fewer still will anoint with oil. (too Charismatic/Pentecostal for them)

Demons? They send their afflicted across town to a Charismatic/Pentecostal church. On the QT of course, no one needs to know. - lol

Saint Steven · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
No, its scriptural.

Jeremiah 11:11
11 Therefore thus says the Lord: “Behold, I will surely bring calamity on them which they will not be able to escape; and though they cry out to Me, I will not listen to them.

1 John 5:14-15 uses the word hear, but it is like willfully not listening.

I don't think it means God cannot hear them (a violation of his omniscience), more that he will not respond.

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I don't think it means God cannot hear them (a violation of his omniscience), more that he will not respond.

It still means there is no such thing as the answer "No" to receiving something for ourselves.

Butch5 · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
What ended the Old Covenant making way for the New Covenant? Or are we still under the Law? Did Christ put New Wine into old wineskins? Do you desperately need a lesson in Covenant Theology??? Cessationists certainly do.

Christ's death was the last sacrifice and was the end and fulfillment of the Old Covenant with its laws and sacrifices, all needed because of Adam's sin. It was because of sin that the Old Covenant was needed. Christ dealt with the sin issue once and for all for all who enter His New Covenant. The giving of the Holy Spirit was the beginning of the New Covenant needed to prepare us for eternal life in heaven, where only the righteous and holy, Revelation 22:11, will live and reign with Christ. (No sinners, only children of God. John 8:32-36). Not understanding covenant theology is why there is so much false teaching about 'always being a sinner' in the Church as Cessationists have been taught and teach. It is the Holy Spirit that takes the power away from the old nature and makes us born again with a divine nature, 2 Peter 1. Christ's sacrifice and resurrection was a foreshadow of the death of our sin nature and our new life in Him. Christ ended the Law, and His death and resurrection and ascension to heaven brought us the indwelling Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has freed us from the law of sin and death.

Covenant Theology 101. (Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." In other words, nothing ceases inside a covenant until the covenant, itself, is fulfilled.) The covenant is a will and testament. Christ preached the New Covenant (like writing His will and testament while alive), but it was not put into affect until the death of the Testator, Hebrews 9:6. Out with the old; in with the NEW. Seeing Christ face to face at the second coming is when the gifts of the Spirit will no longer be necessary and will cease. That is the end of the New Covenant.

What Cessationists don't understand among many things is that even with the Bible we only get a dim view of the glory of God, like seeing Him through a dark glass. They think the gifts were only for writing the Bible, yet most of their prayers are not answered, or has prayer ceased too, because it takes gifts of the Spirit to know God's will in particular situations, to pray accurately and receive what you pray for - the sign of our assurance 1 John 3:18-24. But, don't worry, if you are a Cessationist, God won't force the gifts onto a non-believer of the gifts, so you're safe, like an agoraphobic. Not really living to the fullest, but safe.

If you notice, Christ, Himself, brought in the 1st covenant of the Ten Commandments. It was His finger. And only He can end that covenant, which He did on the cross; just as only He can start and end the New Covenant, by returning to heaven and sending His Spirit to start the covenant, and coming again in the second coming to end the covenant with its partial knowledge of God. The New Testament and everything in it, like it or not, is ours, including every gift and office. Christ did not end the New Covenant with the death of the apostles. They fulfilled their ministry to preach the New Covenant just as we are commissioned to do, and Jesus has supplied us with everything we need to sustain us through His Own Spirit, just like He did them. And it did not end with the publishing of the Bible, for the Bible is still only partial knowledge. There is a reason tongues is a "sign to the unbeliever" - to the mockers, even inside the Church, the "uninformed" - Cessationists. It is accurately called a "sign which will be spoken against" (by unbelievers). The Laodecians do not want or need all that God has for us, and the reason they are lukewarm and dull of hearing God's voice.

Before you slam a group of people you should make sure you're correct. The miraculous gifts did cease as Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians.

Saint Steven · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
It still means there is no such thing as the answer "No" to receiving something for ourselves.

Sorry. I'm not convinced.

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?
I'm counting on you, Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

That's it!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Source: Mercedes Benz - Janis Joplin

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

Butch5 said:
Before you slam a group of people you should make sure you're correct. The miraculous gifts did cease as Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians.

Well they started up again full force didn't they. In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul does say when they would cease - When we see Him FACE TO FACE.

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Sorry. I'm not convinced.

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?

Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?
I'm counting on you, Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?

Everybody!
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends,
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?

That's it!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Source: Mercedes Benz - Janis Joplin

You're being silly. The three verses written by John tells us we WILL receive what we ask for. But there are conditions. That's what is important to know and be aware of. So how do you think we can know God's will so we will always receive what we ask for?

swordsman1 · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Let's try this again. Let's say that three disciples were praising God in tongues all at the same time.

One was speaking German.
One was speaking French
One was speaking Japanese.

Three devout Jews were listening but came from different countries.

The Chinaman heard THEM speaking Chinese.
The American heard THEM speaking English.
The Mexican heard THEM speaking Spanish.

Understand? I don't know how to make it any clearer. I thought the highlighting would work, but, oh well.

Not only did the disciples speak supernaturally, the devout Jews heard them supernaturally. My question to you now is how?

What exactly did the foreigners hear? Did they hear a voice in their heads automatically translating the disciples' words or did they hear the disciples themselves speaking their own language. Verse 6 tells us plainly:

"each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."

They heard the disciples speaking their languages, not a voice in their heads.

There is no mention of any miracle occuring in the hearing of the foreigners. If there was this great miracle of automatic translation in the ears of the crowd Luke would have told us, not remain silent on such an important fact. Acts is the follow on from his gospel which Luke says is an exact and accurate account of the truth (Luke 1:1-4). He would not be speaking in riddles expecting his readers to read between the lines as to what actually happened. He says the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples and performed a miracle in their speaking, not on the unregenerate crowd in their hearing.

No, what you are doing is example of eisegesis - the fallacy of starting with a preconceived idea and inventing a novel interpretation of a text to try and make it fit the idea. It is the opposite of exegesis - starting with the text and letting the words speak plainly for themself, applying the established principles of hermeneutics.

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

swordsman1 said:
What exactly did the foreigner hear? Did they hear a voice in their heads automatically translating the disciples' words or did they hear the disciples themselves speaking their own language. Verse 6 tells us plainly:

"each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language."

They heard the disciples speaking their languages, not a voice in their heads.

There is no mention of any miracle occuring in the hearing of the foreigners. If there was this great miracle of automatic translation in the ears of the crowd Luke would have told us, not remain silent on such an important fact. Acts is the follow on from his gospel which Luke says is an exact and accurate account of the truth (Luke 1:1-4). He would not be speaking in riddles expecting his readers to read between the lines as to what actually happened. He says the Holy Spirit fell on the disciples and performed a miracle in their speaking, not on the unregenerate crowd in their hearing.

No, what you are doing is example of eisegesis - the fallacy of starting with a preconceived idea and inventing a novel interpretation of a text to try and make it fit the idea. It is the opposite of exegesis - starting with the text and letting the words speak plainly for themself, applying the established principles of hermeneutics.

You've got your mind made up, so don't let the facts sway you.

swordsman1 · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
You've got your mind made up, so don't let the facts sway you.

The facts are plainly presented in Acts 2.

Saint Steven · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
You're being silly. The three verses written by John tells us we WILL receive what we ask for. But there are conditions. That's what is important to know and be aware of. So how do you think we can know God's will so we will always receive what we ask for?

I advise against telling God what to give us when we have a concern. I prefer to turn it over to him and let him decide what the best solution is. If he wants to give me a fish, I shouldn't pray for a snake.

And more often than not, instead of changing my SITUATION, he wants to change ME.

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

swordsman1 said:
The facts are plainly presented in Acts 2.

Here is the rule called the authority of Scripture:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Now whose interpretation contradicts this Scripture? Yours - yes; mine - no.

swordsman1 · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul does say when they would cease - When we see Him FACE TO FACE.

No it doesn't. Read it again. There is no mention of "Him".

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I advise against telling God what to give us when we have a concern. I prefer to turn it over to him and let him decide what the best solution is. If he wants to give me a fish, I shouldn't pray for a snake.

And more often than not, instead of changing my SITUATION, he wants to change ME.

Exactly, we should never pray our own will. So then what SHOULD we do?

CharismaticLady · Dec 18, 2019

swordsman1 said:
No it doesn't. Read it again. There is no mention of "Him".

Who are we going to see face to face?

swordsman1 · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Who are we going to see face to face?

"face to face" is referring to the analogy of the mirror. When 'completion' comes it would be no longer be like seeing someone dimly in a broken mirror but instead be like seeing someone 'face to face'.

Saint Steven · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Exactly, we should never pray our own will. So then what SHOULD we do?

I thought I just answered that. But it seems you want me to say, pray God's will.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I advise against telling God what to give us when we have a concern. I prefer to turn it over to him and let him decide what the best solution is. If he wants to give me a fish, I shouldn't pray for a snake.

And more often than not, instead of changing my SITUATION, he wants to change ME.

swordsman1 · Dec 18, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Here is the rule called the authority of Scripture:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Now whose interpretation contradicts this Scripture? Yours - yes; mine - no.

1 Cor 14:2 doesn't say Corinthian tongues was a non-human language. It says he (whoever it was) was speaking a language that no one in the congregation understood. That doesn't mean it must be non-human. If he was speaking say Persian in a small Greek house church it is no surprise that no one understood. Remember the context of Ch14 is church meetings.

Number One Flaw in Cessationism

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