WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
This is a symbolic and hyperbolic representation of Jerusalem , on earth, vs the New Jerusalem above who is known as the "mother of us all".

"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."
Galatians 4:26

So Jerusalem above is the New City ( I agree literal city in Heaven) that does not correlate with the earthly city of Jerusalem

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Notice Paul correlates the "mother of us all" with the church. This is consistent with the symbolic women in prophecy being a church, not a literal city.

By contrast to those "in bondage" Paul, in his allegory, declares that "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." In Hebrews, Paul employs this figure also: "For you are not come unto the mount [Sinai] that might be touched, and that burned with fire,... but you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel." Heb. 12:18-24.W

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/assets/PDF/eBooks/EGWhite/Answers-to-Objections.pdf
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
He carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, and upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth.” I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. (Rev. 17:3-6)

The Great Harlot that John sees riding the Beast is first century Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, the home of the Temple of God. Let me show you the evidence.

The first line of evidence that Jerusalem is the Harlot is the perfect correspondence with Revelation’s theme. John writes Revelation as a prophecy of Christ’s judgment against those who “pierced him” (Rev. 1:7) The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes Israel’s covenantal culpability in Christ’s death. Paul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews (Phil. 3:5), observes regarding the Jews: they “Both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men” (1Thess. 2:15). Consequently, he notes “the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost” (1 Thess. 2:16).

We must understand that this theme of judgment on Israel is limited to first century Israel. Revelation specifically mentions the Treading down of her Temple---which no longer exists (it was destroyed in AD 70) and has not existed for 2000 plus years (Rev. 11:1-2; Luke 21:20-24).

Since the Harlot represents first century Jerusalem, this fits perfectly with John’s “must shortly come to pass” time statements (Rev. 1:1-3; 22:6, 10). This also perfectly fits Jesus’ denunciation of the first century Jews, when he calls them an “adulterous generation” (Matt. 12:39; 16:4; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29).

He repeatedly rebukes the first century Jews in “this generation” (Matt. 11:16-19) as an “evil generation” (Matt. 12:41-45), an “unbelieving and perverted generation” (Matt. 17:17), and “a wicked generation” (Luke 11:29).

He emphatically prophesies that “all the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God: yes I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation” (Luke 11:50-51).


In Revelation, the Harlot appears as “Babylon the Great” (Rev. 17:5). She is repeatedly called “the great city” (Rev. 16:19; 17:18; 18:10, 16, 18, 21).

Revelation 11:8: And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Here, “the great city” is specifically tied to the place “where also their Lord was crucified.” This must refer to Jerusalem, for that is the historical site of Christ’s crucifixion (Luke 13:33; Matt. 23:34-37).


How lonely sits the city that was full of people! She has become like a widow who was once great among the nations! She who was a princess among the provinces has become a forced laborer! (Lam. 1:1)

John even uses Jeremiah’s widow imagery from Lamentations in his description of the Harlot:

To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning, for she says in her heart, “I sit as queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.” (Rev. 18:7)

Jerusalem fits the concept of a “great city” covenentally and historically. In Revelation, she appears as the “great city” and the “Great Harlot.”

John frequently presents the Harlot to his reader as “filled with the blood of the saints.”

In her was found the blood of prophets and saints and all who have been slain on the earth. (Rev. 18:24)

This same language appears in Revelation 16:6; 17:6, and 18:21, 24. John is apparently reflecting on a statement made by Christ to the leaders of Israel:

In order that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God, yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation. (Luke 11:50-51)

Not only is the language strikingly similar, but the time frames match: John speaks of events that “must shortly take place,” while Jesus speaks of this judgment occurring in “this generation.”

Israel’s persecution against Christians recurs throughout the Bible.

I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons, as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished. (Acts 22:4-5; see also the following chapters in Acts: 4-9; 11-14; 17-26).

Stephen denounces Israel with these words:

You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit. You are doing just as your fathers did. Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become. (Acts 7:51-52)

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus mentions Israel’s persecution of the prophets:

Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt. 5:12)

The New Testament returns over and over to the theme of Jewish persecution of the prophets. (Matt. 23:29-37; Luke 6:23-26; 11:47-50; 13:34; Romans 11:3; 1Thess. 2:15; and Heb11:32-38) The Harlot’s being drunk on the blood of the saints and prophets well fits Israel’s history.


Stephen charged Israel with breach of covenantal Law: You “received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it” (Acts 7:53) In all of this, we must remember Jesus came to his own and his own did not receive him (John 1:11). This is Jesus’ message in Matthew 23:37-38:

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! (Matt. 23:37-38)

The whole book of Hebrews lays out the heightened failure of the Jewish rejection of Christ.

Anyone who has set the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay. The Lord will judge His people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:28-31)

Israel’s failure is so great that John presents her as the Great Harlot drunk on the blood of God’s people! So not only is she guilty of “piercing” the Messiah (Rev. 1:7), she is unrepentant and even exacerbates her rebellion by attacking His followers.

John provides two short, but revealing statements about the harlot’s garments.

The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality. (Rev. 17:4)

Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. (Rev 18:16)

Her dress reflects her covenantal status as a kingdom of priests, particularly reminding the first century reader of Jerusalem’s central Temple and its prominent High Priest (note his great authority in Acts 23:4). In Exodous 28 we read of the High Priest’s ritual attire:

These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a tunic of checkered work, a turban, a sash, and holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons, that he may minister as priest to me. They shall take the blue and purple and scarlet material and the fine linen…the skillfully woven band, which is on it, shall be like its workmanship, of the same material: of gold, blue and purple and scarlet material and fine twisted linen. (Exo. 28:4-5; 8-9)

This attire also matches the décor of the Temple.

You shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet material, you shall make them with the cherubim, the work of a skillful workman. (Exo. 26:1)

The Old Testament descrition of the Temple points out that the altar (which received the blood of sacrifices, Exo 24:6; 29:12; Lev. 1:5) was gold---like the cup from which the Harlot drank the blood of the saints:

The whole altar which was by the inner sanctuary he overlaid with gold (1 Kgs. 6:22)

In fact, the Temple contained numerous gold utensils:

Let the gold and silver utensils of the temple of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took from the temple in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, be returned and brought to their places in the temple in Jerusalem, and you shall put them and them in the house of God. (Ezra 6:5)

The historian Josephus gives us an eyewitness description of the first century Temple, which parallels the Harlot’s dress.

The temple’s tapestry was Babylonian tapestry in which blue, purple, scarlet, and linen were mingled. (War 5:5:4)

The greatest part of the vessels that were put in them was of silver and gold. (War 5:4:5)

An interesting detail regarding the Harlot’s attire regards her headgear:

Upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlot’s and of the Abominations of the Earth. (Rev. 17:5)

John’s focus on her forehead is significant. In the description of the High Priest in the Old Testament, we read:

You shall make a plate of pure gold and shall engrave “Holy to the Lord”…It shall be on Aaron’s forehead, and Aaron shall take away the iniquity of the holy things which the sons of Israel consecrate, with regard to all their holy gifts, and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord. (Exo. 28:36, 38)

John dresses the Harlot in a way that draws out attention to her forehead. When we look there we see the opposite of what appears on the forehead of the High Priest, showing John’s estimation of what the Holy City, Temple of God, and priesthood have become. Interestingly, Jeremiah also mentions the harlotrous forehead of Jerusalem in Jeremiah 3:3.

Among the prophets of Jerusalem, I have seen a horrible thing. The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood. They strengthen the hands of evildoers so that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom, and her inhabitants like Gomorrah. (Jer. 23:14)

John applies to Jerusalem names involving evil biblical associations:

Their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified (Rev. 11:8).

Note that he calls this city “mystically” Sodom and Egypt, but that he actually locates it at the place, “where also their Lord was crucified,” which we know is Jerusalem (Luke 9:31; 13:33; 18:31; 24:18).

Later in Revelation, John calls Jerusalem, “Babylon.” He appears to do this because of the soon coming destruction of the Second Temple, the Temple of Jesus’ day. The first Temple had been destroyed by historical Babylon in the Old Testament (2 Kings 25:8-9; 2 Chr. 36:17-20; Ezra 5:12; Jer. 52:13). Now Jerusalem is aligned with Babylon as a Temple destroyer for causing the final destruction of the house of God.

John structures two major female images in Revelation as positive and negative images. He names the Harlot as “Babylon the Great” and presents her evil character in Revelation 17. John also presents her destruction in chapters 18 and 19.

He cried out in a mighty voice saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. (Rev. 18:2)

Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come. (Rev. 18:10)

A strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it in the sea, saying, Thus will be Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. (Rev. 18:21)

John now introduces a new woman. She is called the holy city, the new Jerusalem.

I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:2)

Elsewhere the New Testament we have the same contrast of old and new Jerusalem:

This Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. The Jerusalem from above is free. She is our mother. (Gal. 4:25-26)

The writer of Hebrews encourages the professing Jews to remain faithful to the Christian conversion:

You have come to Mount Zion to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels. (Heb. 12:22)

John records for us his experience in witnessing both the Great Harlot and the Bride from heaven. One becomes the negative image of the other:

One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters. (Rev. 17:1)

One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said come here and said, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. (Rev. 21:9)

The positive-negative contrast continues with the old and new Jerusalem. The angel in both instances carries John, but to radically different environments:

He carried me away in the spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. (Rev. 17:3)

He carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 21:9)

Lets agree to disagree

If you copy and past please post the origin of the copy.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,640
7,849
63
Martinez
✟903,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So Jerusalem above is the New City ( I agree literal city in Heaven) that does not correlate with the earthly city of Jerusalem

Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Notice Paul correlates the "mother of us all" with the church. This is consistent with the symbolic women in prophecy being a church, not a literal city.

By contrast to those "in bondage" Paul, in his allegory, declares that "Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." In Hebrews, Paul employs this figure also: "For you are not come unto the mount [Sinai] that might be touched, and that burned with fire,... but you are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel." Heb. 12:18-24.W

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/assets/PDF/eBooks/EGWhite/Answers-to-Objections.pdf
Yes the New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of God where the Church dwells aka The Body of Christ and where Jesus Christ is King. I think you made my point.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes the New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of God where the Church dwells aka The Body of Christ and where Jesus Christ is King. I think you made my point.

The church is Christ's Bride IE women in prophecy represents a church
 
  • Winner
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
The OP sounds like a Catholic apologist.

I admit I haven't studied the subject extensively but I think the harlot of Babylon is the Catholic church,regardless of your disclaimers.

To begin there is only one notable city in the world with seven mountains-Rome, the catholic churches head quarters.

Revelation 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


And this part of your OP is outrageous:
''The Harlot being drunk on the blood of the saints and prophets ONLY fits Jerusalem.''

Everyone knows how brutal the Inquisition was and other times the Catholic church has been-against Christians. So this part of the harlot fits the catholic church as well.


My belief from scripture is the Catholic church is the harlot of Babylon.
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,640
7,849
63
Martinez
✟903,186.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The church is Christ's Bride IE women in prophecy represents a church
Yes we are in agreement, the Bride is Christ's Church always has been and always will be which includes the remnant Jews and the gentiles. In the Old Testament, the idea of Israel as the “wife” of God is developed. Though Israel was “married” to God she proved an unfaithful spouse thus became a harlot.
 
Upvote 0

Josheb

Christian
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
2,196
835
NoVa
✟166,326.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Revelation 17:5, the Harlot appears as “Babylon the Great.”.................
The harlot is Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood. The harlot wears purple and scarlet. These are the colors of the Levitical priests' attire. It is Jerusalem that is replaced/restored in Revelation. It is a new Jerusalem, not a new Rome. It was Jerusalem and the Jewish leaders that bore the blood of the saints (see Mt. 23), not Rome. It was their house that was an abomination and left desolate.

Remember John is the most Jewish of all the NT writers (with the possible exception of James. In his epistles are repeated references to the Jewish Tanakh and there are over 340 OT references in Revelation.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Briefcase

Member
Dec 18, 2019
17
20
49
Sweeny
✟8,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The harlot is Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood. The harlot wears purple and scarlet. These are the colors of the Levitical priests' attire. It is Jerusalem that is replaced/restored in Revelation. It is a new Jerusalem, not a new Rome. It was Jerusalem and the Jewish leaders that bore the blood of the saints (see Mt. 23), not Rome. It was their house that was an abomination and left desolate.

Remember John is the most Jewish of all the NT writers (with the possible exception of James. In his epistles are repeated references to the Jewish Tanakh and there are over 340 OT references in Revelation.


LOVE IT!
 
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
The harlot is Jerusalem and the Levitical priesthood. The harlot wears purple and scarlet. These are the colors of the Levitical priests' attire. It is Jerusalem that is replaced/restored in Revelation. It is a new Jerusalem, not a new Rome. It was Jerusalem and the Jewish leaders that bore the blood of the saints (see Mt. 23), not Rome. It was their house that was an abomination and left desolate.

Remember John is the most Jewish of all the NT writers (with the possible exception of James. In his epistles are repeated references to the Jewish Tanakh and there are over 340 OT references in Revelation.


The Pope wears purple and scarlet:


upload_2019-12-18_20-47-39.jpeg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Briefcase

Member
Dec 18, 2019
17
20
49
Sweeny
✟8,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The OP sounds like a Catholic apologist.

I admit I haven't studied the subject extensively but I think the harlot of Babylon is the Catholic church,regardless of your disclaimers.

To begin there is only one notable city in the world with seven mountains-Rome, the catholic churches head quarters.

Revelation 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


And this part of your OP is outrageous:
''The Harlot being drunk on the blood of the saints and prophets ONLY fits Jerusalem.''

Everyone knows how brutal the Inquisition was and other times the Catholic church has been-against Christians. So this part of the harlot fits the catholic church as well.


My belief from scripture is the Catholic church is the harlot of Babylon.


In Revelation 6:9-11; 14:8-20; 18:5, Babylon would be judged because she had filled the measure of her sin by persecuting the saints. In Isaiah 65:6f, the prophet foretold the time when Israel would fill the measure of her sin and be destroyed. That destruction would be followed by the new creation in verse 19f.

When standing in the temple (Matthew 23:32) Jesus says to the Jews: “Fill up then the measure of your father’s guilt.” Jesus said Jerusalem had not yet filled up the measure of her sin but would do so in His generation (Matt.23:34-36). Jesus’ prediction is a continuance of Isaiah’s prediction that Israel would fill the measure of her sin and ultimately perish.

In 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, Paul said the Jews had killed the prophets, crucified Jesus, and were persecuting him. In doing so, he said “they fill up the measure of their sin always.”

Isaiah said Israel would fill the cup of sin and be destroyed in the last days. Jesus said Israel would fill the cup of sin and be destroyed in His generation. Paul said Israel was filling the cup of sin and judgment was imminent. John said here in Revelation Babylon’s cup of sin was full and her judgment was at hand.

From Isaiah to Jesus, to Paul, and to John, there is an unbroken thread about the filling up of the measure of sin. It deals with Israel, not Rome, not the Catholic Church or any other entity. There is not one New Testament reference to Rome filling the measure of her sin. The unbroken testimony of the Lord and the epistles is that it was the Jews that were filling the measure of their sin.

The harlot’s apparel seems to be taken directly from the priestly world of the temple at Jerusalem. The harlot is arrayed in Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple and gold (Ex. 28).She has a blasphemous mark on her forehead, which reads: “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the Earth” (Rev. 17:5). This gives a negative portrayal of the holy sayings the Jewish High Priest wore, which said “Holy to the Lord” (Ex. 28:36-38). Also, the Harlot had a gold cup in her hand, as did the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Talmud.

These images, the very colors of the harlot’s clothes, the cup in her hand, etc, are taken directly from the cultic world of the temple at Jerusalem. Thus, the harlot’s clothes are highly suggestive of Jerusalem and not Rome. The description of the city Babylon as presented in Revelation 18:16 is highly suggestive that Jerusalem is in view: “That great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.” Here is a description of the temple by Josephus:

It was covered all over the plates of gold of great weight, and at first rising of the sun, reflected back a fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun’s own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow, for as, to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceedingly white” (Wars, Bk. V, 5, 6).
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Briefcase

Member
Dec 18, 2019
17
20
49
Sweeny
✟8,544.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Pope wears purple and scarlet:


View attachment 268712


In Revelation 6:9-11; 14:8-20; 18:5, Babylon would be judged because she had filled the measure of her sin by persecuting the saints. In Isaiah 65:6f, the prophet foretold the time when Israel would fill the measure of her sin and be destroyed. That destruction would be followed by the new creation in verse 19f.

When standing in the temple (Matthew 23:32) Jesus says to the Jews: “Fill up then the measure of your father’s guilt.” Jesus said Jerusalem had not yet filled up the measure of her sin but would do so in His generation (Matt.23:34-36). Jesus’ prediction is a continuance of Isaiah’s prediction that Israel would fill the measure of her sin and ultimately perish.

In 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, Paul said the Jews had killed the prophets, crucified Jesus, and were persecuting him. In doing so, he said “they fill up the measure of their sin always.”

Isaiah said Israel would fill the cup of sin and be destroyed in the last days. Jesus said Israel would fill the cup of sin and be destroyed in His generation. Paul said Israel was filling the cup of sin and judgment was imminent. John said here in Revelation Babylon’s cup of sin was full and her judgment was at hand.

From Isaiah to Jesus, to Paul, and to John, there is an unbroken thread about the filling up of the measure of sin. It deals with Israel, not Rome, not the Catholic Church or any other entity. There is not one New Testament reference to Rome filling the measure of her sin. The unbroken testimony of the Lord and the epistles is that it was the Jews that were filling the measure of their sin.

The harlot’s apparel seems to be taken directly from the priestly world of the temple at Jerusalem. The harlot is arrayed in Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple and gold (Ex. 28).She has a blasphemous mark on her forehead, which reads: “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the Earth” (Rev. 17:5). This gives a negative portrayal of the holy sayings the Jewish High Priest wore, which said “Holy to the Lord” (Ex. 28:36-38). Also, the Harlot had a gold cup in her hand, as did the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Talmud.

These images, the very colors of the harlot’s clothes, the cup in her hand, etc, are taken directly from the cultic world of the temple at Jerusalem. Thus, the harlot’s clothes are highly suggestive of Jerusalem and not Rome. The description of the city Babylon as presented in Revelation 18:16 is highly suggestive that Jerusalem is in view: “That great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.” Here is a description of the temple by Josephus:

It was covered all over the plates of gold of great weight, and at first rising of the sun, reflected back a fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun’s own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow, for as, to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceedingly white” (Wars, Bk. V, 5, 6).
 
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,147
426
England
✟23,768.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
In Revelation 6:9-11; 14:8-20; 18:5, Babylon would be judged because she had filled the measure of her sin by persecuting the saints. In Isaiah 65:6f, the prophet foretold the time when Israel would fill the measure of her sin and be destroyed. That destruction would be followed by the new creation in verse 19f.

When standing in the temple (Matthew 23:32) Jesus says to the Jews: “Fill up then the measure of your father’s guilt.” Jesus said Jerusalem had not yet filled up the measure of her sin but would do so in His generation (Matt.23:34-36). Jesus’ prediction is a continuance of Isaiah’s prediction that Israel would fill the measure of her sin and ultimately perish.

In 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, Paul said the Jews had killed the prophets, crucified Jesus, and were persecuting him. In doing so, he said “they fill up the measure of their sin always.”

Isaiah said Israel would fill the cup of sin and be destroyed in the last days. Jesus said Israel would fill the cup of sin and be destroyed in His generation. Paul said Israel was filling the cup of sin and judgment was imminent. John said here in Revelation Babylon’s cup of sin was full and her judgment was at hand.

From Isaiah to Jesus, to Paul, and to John, there is an unbroken thread about the filling up of the measure of sin. It deals with Israel, not Rome, not the Catholic Church or any other entity. There is not one New Testament reference to Rome filling the measure of her sin. The unbroken testimony of the Lord and the epistles is that it was the Jews that were filling the measure of their sin.

The harlot’s apparel seems to be taken directly from the priestly world of the temple at Jerusalem. The harlot is arrayed in Jewish priestly colors of scarlet, purple and gold (Ex. 28).She has a blasphemous mark on her forehead, which reads: “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the Earth” (Rev. 17:5). This gives a negative portrayal of the holy sayings the Jewish High Priest wore, which said “Holy to the Lord” (Ex. 28:36-38). Also, the Harlot had a gold cup in her hand, as did the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, according to the Talmud.

These images, the very colors of the harlot’s clothes, the cup in her hand, etc, are taken directly from the cultic world of the temple at Jerusalem. Thus, the harlot’s clothes are highly suggestive of Jerusalem and not Rome. The description of the city Babylon as presented in Revelation 18:16 is highly suggestive that Jerusalem is in view: “That great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls.” Here is a description of the temple by Josephus:

It was covered all over the plates of gold of great weight, and at first rising of the sun, reflected back a fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun’s own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow, for as, to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceedingly white” (Wars, Bk. V, 5, 6).


So Babylon in Revelation go by the same location as the Catholic church,they have the same dress code,they do same same activities (killing Christians) but they are different, Babylon is not the Catholic church?

Well I have yet to see a more convincing candidate for Babylon than the Catholic church.
 
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,418
933
✟175,709.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In Revelation 17:5, the Harlot appears as “Babylon the Great.”

She is repeatedly called “The Great City.”

We then encounter the phrase “the great city” in

Revelation 11:8And their dead bodies will lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY which is mystically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.”

Two things to consider.

1. There is only one city throughout the Bible which is referred to as Sodom and Egypt and guess which city IT IS NOT? IT IS NOT ROME.

But the Bible does refer metaphorically to on multiple occasions Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.

2. Notice the last 6 words of Revelation 11:8 “WHERE ALSO THEIR LORD WAS CRUCIFIED.”

Jesus was NOT crucified in Rome.

Jesus WAS crucified in Jerusalem.

Therefore, The Harlot, and Babylon can be none other than Jerusalem NOT Rome.

Revelation 18:24 says “In her (Babylon) was found the blood of prophets and saints.”

This same language appears in Revelation 16:6, 17:6, and 18:21 and 18:24. John is making the same statements as Jesus made in Luke 11:50-51.

Luke 11:50-51:In order that the blood of all the prophets, she’d since the foundation of the world may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the house of God, yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.”

Rome never killed an Old Testament prophet as per Revelation 18:24, but Jerusalem certainly did.

The New Testament shows over and over the Jewish persecution of the prophets (Matt. 23:29-37; Luke 6:23-26; Luke 11:47-50; Luke 13:34; Romans 11:3; 1Thessalonians 2:15; and Hebrews 11:32-38.)

The Harlot being drunk on the blood of the saints and prophets ONLY fits Jerusalem.

Last thing: Even the Harlot’s attire provides evidence of Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:4 The woman was clothed in "PURPLE AND SCARLET...”

Revelation 18:6 “Woe, woe, the great city clothed in fine linen and PURPLE and SCARLET...”

Notice the clothing of the Harlot is the exact clothing required of the priests who served in the Temple in Jerusalem (Exodus 28:4-5 and also verses 8-9.)

This attire of the harlot also matches the decor of the Temple (Exodus 26:1).

Lastly notice the harlot has headgear (Revelation 17:5)

And so did the High Priest who served in the Old Testament Temple (Exodus 28:36 -38).

The Harlot and Babylon again only fits Jerusalem and NOT ROME!


Most that identify Rome as Babylon do so because of the phrase “the city on 7 hills” and Rome certainly was known as the city on 7 hills, but what most don’t know or either forget is that Jerusalem was known first as the city on 7 hills.
1. The Mount of Olives
2. Mount Scopus
3. Mount of Corruption
4. Original Mount Zion/called Temple Mount
5. The New Mount Zion/called Western Hill
6. Mount Ophel
7. Antonia Fortress Hill

I hate to break it to you, but the it's spiritual Israel, which is the church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matt5

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2019
874
327
Zürich
✟132,621.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Bible cannot interpret itself because there is not enough information. That is why people have to wait until the end-times and incorporate additional information.

Rev 17:1 Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.

Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

You don't just nuke a country or city for no reason. What specific action took place that got the beast and ten horns so mad that they nuked the her? What did the Mystery Babylon do?

Rev 17: 6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

What did she do to the saints? She nuked them. And she got nuked back in retaliation. Otherwise, it is likely she would not have been nuked.

Why does she boast in her heart that she will never mourn?

Rev 18:7 In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow; I will never mourn.’

Because she has nukes. She thinks no one can attack her because of her nukes.

Who is she?

We don't know because Rev 17:6 hasn't happened yet.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: martymonster
Upvote 0

martymonster

Veteran
Dec 15, 2006
3,418
933
✟175,709.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Bible cannot interpret itself because there is not enough information. That is why people have to wait until the end-times and incorporate additional information.

Rev 17:1 Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.

Rev 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

You don't just nuke a country or city for no reason. What specific action took place that got the beast and ten horns so mad that they nuked the her? What did the Mystery Babylon do?

Rev 17: 6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

What did she do to the saints? She nuked them. And she got nuked back in retaliation. Otherwise, it is likely she would not have been nuked.

Why does she boast in her heart that she will never mourn?

Rev 18:7 In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit enthroned as queen. I am not a widow; I will never mourn.’

Because she has nukes. She thinks no one can attack her because of her nukes.

Who is she?

We don't know because Rev 17:6 hasn't happened yet.

Bro, if you think the bible doesn't contain enough information, you aren't looking hard enough!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums