How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

1Reformedman said:

The lost one cannot please God, he is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can he be. Romans 8:7-8. The lost one also cannot understand spiritual things 1 Cor. 2:14. So that means the lost one cant choose christ while still in bondage to the old nature because to do so would please God nad to choose christ is also a spiritual thing. Sorry its just not possible biblically speaking

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This scripture just showed up in the new threads, and it's really good for all of this question:

"God who gives the increase is all in all. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. so that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He who is giving growth"
God Gave The Increase

We could look at this in the ESV also:

"God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. "

Halbhh said:

Usually the aid all need in doctrinal arguing is to instead read full books of scripture fully through, without an agenda to see one thing or another, but with faith instead. We should trust, and that's the key thing. Then all the artificial disputes disappear. People stop arguing about what color shoes they have on, and look to Christ.

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Here's a question for you:
Can you show me a single command in the bible that contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it? I'd be very intersted in seeing you show me one.

Heck, you don't have to limit it to the bible. Show me any command anywhere that contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it.

BNR32FAN said:

This is exactly why I don’t subscribe to commentaries. I can find commentaries on the internet that will tell you that Jesus is not the Son of God. Just because some guy on the Internet said so doesn’t make it true.

See I asked a simple question and you couldn’t answer it. Instead you had to go out looking for a 10,000 word essay written by God only knows who that doesn’t prove anything.

What’s even worse is it didn’t even answer the simple question “How is it that they “willfully” rebel against God if they are incapable of repentance?”

You said they willfully rebel against God so I would assume you know how that is possible if they are incapable of repentance. Let me let you in on a little secret here, failure to comply due to inability is not the result of willful intention. The way your dodging this simple question makes me inclined to ask, are you by chance a politician?

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Repentance is a spiritual thing. The lost cannot understand spiritual things and they are in bondage to the sin nature. They cannot please God. They are spiritually dead, deaf and blind, so they can't do anything but willfully reject Christ if they hear the Gospel and are not convicted of their sin. The only time one can choose Christ is after God has regenerated that person. Biblically speaking one must have been given that new nature by God BEFORE one can choose Christ. YOu cant choose christ as a lost one because choosing Christ pleases God and the bible says a lost one cannot please God.

Halbhh said:

This scripture just showed up in the new threads, and it's really good for all of this question:

"God who gives the increase is all in all. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. so that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He who is giving growth"
God Gave The Increase

We could look at this in the ESV also:

"God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. "

Click to expand...

I dont know where found this:
"God who gives the increase is all in all. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. so that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He who is giving growth"

but is it not BIBLE verse and appears to be commentary. When googling the phrase it goes to a website that is spammed by ads that won't let you get to the website without participating in a time consuming silly survey.

However, your quotation from 1 Corinthians 3:7 isn't a salvific verse but instead a verse talking about What God does in the life of one who already believes. Remember Paul is talking about water baptism, not justification and he is talking to believers not unbelievers about their standing in Christ as being spiritual babes who should be ready for more of the spiritual meat instead of the milk.

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

So here we see Paul is talking about God using various believers to help bring about the spiritual maturity of other believers but also we see here that the corinthians were bickering over who was the greater teacher, they were stuck on following the preacher instead of what God says in his word.

1Reformedman said:

Can you show me a single command in the bible that contains within it your natural moral ability to obey it? I'd be very intersted in seeing you show me one.

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We can simply trust God to know what He was saying, to know that we can somehow do as He says to us to do. (keeping his words in our minds/hearts is central: John chapters 14-15)

That's enough, just to trust Him to know what He is saying, and then to listen, and hear.

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3J ust then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.

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Lord, we listen, and obey.

We don't have to know esoteric knowledge. We simply listen, hear, and then obey.

So if person A is right, or person B, about some obscure esoteric idea they have, it doesn't affect us. We put first things first, and listen and keep Christ's words.

1Reformedman said:

I dont know where found this:
"God who gives the increase is all in all. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. so that neither is he who is planting anything, nor he who is watering, but He who is giving growth"

but is it not BIBLE verse and appears to be commentary. When googling the phrase it goes to a website that is spammed by ads that won't let you get to the website without participating in a time consuming silly survey.

However, your quotation from 1 Corinthians 3:7 isn't a salvific verse but instead a verse talking about What God does in the life of one who already believes. Remember Paul is talking about water baptism, not justification and he is talking to believers not unbelievers about their standing in Christ as being spiritual babes who should be ready for more of the spiritual meat instead of the milk.

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

So here we see Paul is talking about God using various believers to help bring about the spiritual maturity of other believers but also we see here that the corinthians were bickering over who was the greater teacher, they were stuck on following the preacher instead of what God says in his word.

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Merely read that post more fully, and if you like of course track down the ESV and by all means read the commentaries if you feel you must. But already just the clear words are enough for me, having read 100% through all of 1rst Corinthians more than just once or twice. And with real listening. Here's a very useful thing from someone that has read in many different ways: put aside all of the critical analysis and intellectualization, and just truly listen, and hear the messages, foremost, and as sufficient.

Halbhh said:

We can simply trust God to know what He was saying, to know that we can somehow do as He says to us to do. (keeping his words in our minds/hearts is central: John chapters 14-15)

That's enough, just to trust Him to know what He is saying, and then to listen, and hear.

1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3J ust then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4 Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6 When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.

---------
Lord, we listen, and obey.

We don't have to know esoteric knowledge. We simply listen, hear, and then obey.

So if person A is right, or person B, about some obscure esoteric idea they have, it doesn't affect us. We put first things first, and listen and keep Christ's words.

Click to expand...

Don't you know a lost one cannot trust in God? Trusting in God is a spiritual thing. A lost one cannot understand spiritual things so a lost one could never trust in God. When one trusts in God he does so because God has enabled him to do so through God's saving grace.

A lost one spiritually dead, deaf and blind. You are putting the cart before the horse. You are assuming an ability that is not available to the unbeliever. Furthermore, those verses are talking about what the believers witnessed and that really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Halbhh said:

Merely read that post more fully, and if you like of course track down the ESV and by all means read the commentaries if you feel you must. But already just the clear words are enough for me, having read 100% through all of 1rst Corinthians more than just once or twice. And with real listening. Here's a very useful thing from someone that has read in many different ways: put aside all of the critical analysis and intellectualization, and just truly listen, and hear the messages, foremost, and as sufficient.

Click to expand...

I have read the bible from front to back 50 times in the last 35 years. Im well versed thank you,.

Anyways, I am striving to move on from this thread.

May God bless you all; And may you please be well.

1Reformedman said:

Don't you know a lost one cannot trust in God?

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A common thing that happens in forums is people guess reasonably and wrongly what others think or believe and then argue against what they think the other person thinks, which isn't what the other person thinks. Knowing this, I have little interest in debate.

Instead of debates, I just trust Him.

Bible Highlighter said:

Anyways, I am striving to move on from this thread.

May God bless you all; And may you please be well.

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Same to you and have a great day. Merry Christmas

Halbhh said:

A common thing that happens in forums is people guess reasonably and wrongly what others think or believe and then argue against what they think the other person thinks, which isn't what the other person thinks. Knowing this, I have little interest in debate.

Instead of debates, I just trust Him.

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You can trust him because you are saved. Again that's putting the cart before the horse. You couldnt trust him when you weren't saved. See my point?

1Reformedman said:

You can trust him because you are saved. Again that's putting the cart before the horse. You couldnt trust him when you weren't saved. See my point?

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I'm happy to entirely switch the topic, or to change over to the topic you were trying to address.

Sure, some people will listen and some won't. Christ addressed that very clearly.

And, I trust Christ's description of that in Mark chapter 4 over any of our ideas and speculations. Christ also said very specifically 3 ways (various times in the gospels) how people are blocked from faith, and I 100% trust His words, instead of any of our ideas. See? None of this is even a debate topic to me. Instead, I only attempt occasionally to share it with those that truly are interested, from a real true interest, because they are open to hear what He says. But really, the best thing is just to read all He says with that very different attitude: total listening, being the student. So that I'm the one listening, and He is the One doing all of the teaching. It's keeping oneself in the right position.

Halbhh said:

I'm happy to entirely switch the topic, or to change over to the topic you were trying to address.

Sure, some people will listen and some won't. Christ addressed that very clearly.

And, I trust Christ's description of that in Mark chapter 4 over any of our ideas and speculations. Christ also said very specifically 3 ways (various times in the gospels) ho9w people are blocked from faith, and I 100% trust His words, instead of any of our ideas. See? None of this is even a debate topic to me. Instead, I only attempt occasionally to share it with those that truly are interested, from a real true interest, because they are open to hear what He says. But really, the best thing is just to read all He says with that very different attitude: total listening, being the student. So that I'm the one listening, and He is the One doing all of the teachings. It's keeping oneself in the right position.

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Some will listen because of the grace of God in regeneration. The spiritual ears have to be opened and when that happens that person has just been regenerated. IF you have ears to hear you will never reject Christ.

1Reformedman said:

Some will listen because of the grace of God in regeneration. The spiritual ears have to be opened and when that happens that person has just been regenerated. IF you have ears to hear you will never reject Christ.

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Very often the topic turns out to be why or how or who are the lost that begin to listen: why them and not others. Why some of the lost listen, but others won't. And that's what I was talking about just above, that different topic. Then, often the discussion moves to why some are drawn (pulled, chosen, helped) by God, and others are not. And then (after dozens or hundreds of posts), sometimes then people might be willing or interested to consider what scripture says about who God chooses to aid, and why. And then, if someone is interested -- and someone may be, so I'll just copy that link to those scriptures again, for any that happen to read this, and do have that interest. I don't have an interest in hundreds of posts to get to the point of asking: why does God help some and not others. But I'd rather just point to the verses, and this is enough, for this topic, for me.

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

Having discussed these things a few times, I've learned that debate itself is useless. We want to simply trust the Lord, and His words, and not debate.

1Reformedman said:

Because God has concluded all of the human population as unbelievers before individual regeneration Romans 11:32

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That is not willfully.

Halbhh said:

Very often the topic turns out to be why or how or who are the lost that begin to listen: why them and not others. Why some of the lost listen, but others won't. And that's what I was talking about just above, that different topic. Then, often the discussion moves to why some are drawn (pulled, chosen, helped) by God, and others are not. And then (after dozens or hundreds of posts), sometimes then people might be willing or interested to consider what scripture says about who God chooses to aid, and why. And then, if someone is interested -- and someone may be, so I'll just copy that link to those scriptures again, for any that happen to read this, and do have that interest. I don't have an interest in hundreds of posts to get to the point of asking: why does God help some and not others. But I'd rather just point to the verses, and this is enough, for this topic, for me.

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5

Having discussed these things a few times, I've learned that debate itself is useless. We want to simply trust the Lord, and His words, and not debate.

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There's a reason why some listen and some don't. Its because God predestined those whom he would save and he did so according to the whole counsel of his will and he did that choosing before the foundation of the world began. He created two types of human vessels. Some have been predestined for eternal ruin and some have been predestined for salvation. Who is saved isnt determined by the will of man but solely upon the will of God. Remember, God's will is being done on earth as it has already been done in heaven.

IMO, debates are not useless at all.

BNR32FAN said:

That is not willfully.

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God declared that and that declaration has everything to do with a lost one's radical depravity and inability. As I stated before when one is still lost he is in bondage to the old nature and he can only choose according to that nature so he will always WILLFULLY reject God in that he doesn't have spiritual ears to hear or understand spiritual things. The lost one hates God and wants nothing to do with God.

1Reformedman said:

There's a reason why some listen and some don't. Its because God predestined those whom he would save and he did so according to the whole counsel of his will and he did that choosing before the foundation of the world began. He created two types of human vessels. Some have been predestined for eternal ruin and some have been predestined for salvation. Who is saved isnt determined by the will of man but solely upon the will of God. Remember, God's will is being done on earth as it has already been done in heaven.

IMO, debates are not useless at all.

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Suggest take a different view on that very last sentence. "Debate" among believers in the sense of arguing is a sinful thing we are to grow out of:

Philippians 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.
(and similar: What Does the Bible Say About Quarreling?)

If you mean friendly and loving discussion that isn't even slightly about arguing, that's different of course

Halbhh said:

Suggest take a different view on that very last sentence. "Debate" among believers in the sense of arguing is a sinful thing we are to grow out of:

Philippians 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing,
Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on his opinions.
(and similar: What Does the Bible Say About Quarreling?)

If you mean friendly and loving discussion that isn't even slightly about arguing, that's different of course

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Philippians 2:14 uses a word that is the key to your using this verse and trying to make if fit your views about a debate. However, the term arguing in the greek in that verse is a word that many dont know. the English definition is different than the Greek word for Argue. In the greek, dialogismós (from 1260 /dialogízomai, "back-and-forth reasoning") is a reasoning that is self-based and therefore confused. Debating theological views is not wrong as long as its not done to promote self- (aka self-righteousness).

Romans 14:1 the Greek word astheneó here speaks about a new babe in Christ and accepting him even though some things he reasons may not be biblical. This has NOTHING to do with debates.

Many of the other verses you posted in the link have to to with intent just like the Greek word dialogismos