Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

sovereigngrace said:

I don't see a future millennium mentioned in any of these texts. You have to force it into them, where the Holy Spirit forgot.

What possible purpose would there be to restart blood animal sin offerings in the future in the light of the cross-work?

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The 1000 year reign of King Jesus is Written 6 times in Revelation 20. Also described in many other prophecies. Undoubtedly it will happen.

God required sacrifices of thank offerings from His people before Jesus came. Now, there is no Temple and we Christians can have our sins atoned for by accepting Jesus' sacrifice.
But there WILL be a new Temple and thank offerings to God will be made in it, as the prophesies I quoted prove.
You deny scripture to disbelieve these things.

sovereigngrace said:

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

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7 weeks, then 62 weeks, then 1 week. in that order. with a gap between the end of the first 69 weeks and the last 1 week.

Hi SG

sovereigngrace said:

Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Please read this slowly.

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel.

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I read it slowly.
I read it this way:
Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
The blue part, in my opinion, is a comparison for the green one. It means: Very much in the way that not any ethnic Jew is a true Jew... not every ethic descendant of Abraham is a child of God by default.
This is not swapping several "Israels"! This passage was to make people understand who is a child of God.


I'm not saying, Israel did not lose anything. In my opinion they did. Bible now calls Christians God's people and God's priesthood.
Even if during the Old Covenant, Israel was called like that... Christians can't be called Israel. Israel is still Israel. The Jew is still a Jew.
Where exactly is your proof that Israel equals the olive?
There is none. But this example makes it clear how quickly they can be grafted back in shaming those who boast. Romans 11:24.

sovereigngrace said:

The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. [...]How could any Christian miss the spiritual import of this teaching? The kingdom has been taken from Israel as a nation and given to another nation. Who is that nation? It is the largely Gentile New Testament Church comprised of all believers (both Jew and Gentile).

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As I told you, the kingdom is not the same as Israel, in my opinion.

sovereigngrace said:

We are their spiritual offspring. This is the only people that matter.

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This is boasting. Please don't speak in my name. "We are the only ones that matter, (non-Christian) Jews don't count!" this is hostile rhetorics against them.

sovereigngrace said:

We are the true Jews.

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still, you couldn't prove it by scripture. That's such a simple statement, why can't you find it in the Bible? You always need long pages to bring across your "proof" for such a simple allegation.
I also stay with my opinion concerning who is a true Israelite (see my last post)... concerning circumcision (see my last post)... concerning if Israel is still elect in a sense that counts in God's eyes (see last post)... and concerning Israel being the true Israel.

Thomas

keras said:

The 1000 year reign of King Jesus is Written 6 times in Revelation 20. Also described in many other prophecies. Undoubtedly it will happen.

God required sacrifices of thank offerings from His people before Jesus came. Now, there is no Temple and we Christians can have our sins atoned for by accepting Jesus' sacrifice.
But there WILL be a new Temple and thank offerings to God will be made in it, as the prophesies I quoted prove.
You deny scripture to disbelieve these rhings.

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I used to believe that, and now i see that it is anti-biblical. The cross removed that whole system!

Do you believe the following sacrifices will be reintroduced or do you spiritualize them?

The meat offering – Ezekiel 42:13, 44:29, 45:15, 17, 24, 25, 46:5, 7, 11, 14, 15, 20.

The sin offering – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 19, 21, 22, 25, 44:27, 29, 45:17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 46:20.
The trespass offering – Ezekiel 40:39, 42:13, 44:29, 46:20.
The burnt offerings – Ezekiel 40:38, 39, 42, 43:18, 24, 27, 44:11, 45:15, 17, 23, 25, 46:2, 4, 12, 13, 15.
The peace offerings – Ezekiel 43:27, 45:15, 17, 46:2, 12.
The drink offerings – Ezekiel 45:17.

Also, do you believe the Levitical sons of Zadok will be restored (Ezekiel 40:46, 43:19, 44:15, 48:11)?

Whose sins does the Premil think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and the ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercede?

thomas_t said:

Now that Jews have been persecuted for the last 1900 years, at least, this counts as proof.

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Proof of what? what is it Proof of beyond a misguided and false view that their persecutors had of a group of Gentile converts to a post Christian religion?

Your theology claiming that Jews aren't Jews any more, unless they turn to Christ... is dangerous, in my opinion.

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Dangerous?
My view is that after 70AD Jews became, covenantally speaking, just another one of the many ethnic classes of man, and not one ethnicity is held by God a superior OR inferior to another, to be accepted or rejected because of their DNA, but all are freely accepted in Christ..

It is your view that is dangerous. Your view creates a dangerous ambiguity in claiming that the Jews, while being somehow God's Chosen, must still remain a blood guilty race of enemies and that Paul's indictment against them must remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men. ...They always fill up the measure of their sins" (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Your view is the dangerous and hurtful view that has subjected the followers of that religion to the levels of persecution they have endured for too long.

Your view makes Jews the special enemy, while my view affirms Jews are just like everyone else without Christ..... Lost.

How many lives would have been spared if my view was held by a majority for 1900 years instead of yours?
Probably millions.

parousia70 said:

Your view creates a dangerous ambiguity in claiming that the Jews, while being somehow God's Chosen, must still remain a blood guilty race of enemies and that Paul's indictment against them must remain intact

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I didn't say that. Saying they don't accept Christ isn't hurtful. It's not encouraging persecution at all. An evangelist accepts a no. Very important. If they don't want to listen to the gospel, even after some good arguements... then it's their choice that needs to be accepted by every evangelist.
I maintain, your view is dangerous, 'cause it's aggressive against another minority.
Spreading the gospel, in contrast, is not aggressive.

parousia70 said:

Proof of what?

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Jews went through this... and still didn't want to convert. This must mean something.

parousia70 said:

but all are freely accepted in Christ..

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as a matter of fact, many do not accept Christ.

Douggg said:

You have removed the prince who shall come from the text. You do so because Jesus is not of the Romans, and is not the prince who shall come.

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Even those who advocate for dispensationalism agree that it's God that's behind the rebuilding of the second temple......correct? Even though it was the kings of Persia (Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes) that allowed the rebuilding - don't most Christians accept this was a fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy and an act of God and sovereignty of His prophetic word? I'm referring to this part of Daniel's prophecy:

thomas_t said:

Hi SG

I read it slowly.
I read it this way:
Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

The blue part, in my opinion, is a comparison for the green one. It means: Very much in the way that not any ethnic Jew is a true Jew... not every ethic descendant of Abraham is a child of God by default.
This is not swapping several "Israels"! This passage was to make people understand who is a child of God.

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So who are "the children of the promise" in this new covenant period? Let me help you: the spiritual seed of Isaac - which is us (spiritual Israel). Paul assured the church at Galatia in Galatians 4:28: "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." You need to take your Zionist glasses off and see that fleshly unsaved Jews are enemies of God and of their father the devil.

I'm not saying, Israel did not lose anything. In my opinion they did. Bible now calls Christians God's people and God's priesthood.
Even if during the Old Covenant, Israel was called like that... Christians can't be called Israel. Israel is still Israel. The Jew is still a Jew.
Where exactly is your proof that Israel equals the olive?
There is none. But this example makes it clear how quickly they can be grafted back in shaming those who boast. Romans 11:24.

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Colossians 2:11-13 supports this, saying, “ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.”

The circumcised in heart were, and are, God’s true elect in both Testaments. These are a redeemed people who have experienced spiritual regeneration. They are God’s true covenant people. They live and walk in newness of life. Their hearts have been circumcised so that they can understand the holy things of God, please Him and operate in the Spirit. The law of the Lord has been graciously and powerfully applied to their hearts through the internal work of the Spirit.

Paul confirms in Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church generally, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit [Gr. pneuma], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

The title “the circumcision” wasn’t just a natural description of what the Jew had undergone physically, it was an actual designation for the Jews. The phrase “the circumcision” meant and was equivalent to the term “the Jews.” They were synonymous. It is the same with spiritual usage of the term in the New Testament “the circumcision” when referring to all God’s people. It doesn’t just refer to the spiritual act of circumcising the heart, the term became a description of the New Testament Church.

As I told you, the kingdom is not the same as Israel, in my opinion.

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The old covenant arrangement/theocracy is gone forever. It has been replaced by a better, stronger and longer lasting covenant that has no fault and knows no end.

This is boasting. Please don't speak in my name. "We are the only ones that matter, (non-Christian) Jews don't count!" this is hostile rhetorics against them.

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Sadly you don't get it, or you would never throw those false charges out!

still, you couldn't prove it by scripture. That's such a simple statement, why can't you find it in the Bible? You always need long pages to bring across your "proof" for such a simple allegation.
I also stay with my opinion concerning who is a true Israelite (see my last post)... concerning circumcision (see my last post)... concerning if Israel is still elect in a sense that counts in God's eyes (see last post)... and concerning Israel being the true Israel.

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You have danced around the biblical evidence presented, choosing rather to buy the Zionist lie.

A Jew under the new covenant is not a physical thing but a spiritual thing. What this reading is saying is that natural Jewishness (or physical circumcision) means nothing if one isn’t saved, if one is saved then his Jewish upbringing has benefited him by bringing him into contact with the truth (Christ). The whole teaching of Paul in Romans 2:17-29 revolves around defining what a real Jew is under the new covenant and what a true heathen is.

Paul confirms in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (pneuma).”

We are the true circumcision today!

Talking about believing Gentiles, in Romans 2:26-29, Paul’s point is that through salvation, Gentiles who are physically uncircumcised are considered as circumcised and regarded as true Jews. They are indeed spiritual Israel. The key of course is faith in Christ – which only come through the regenerating power of the Spirit of God. Under the new covenant, true Jewishness and circumcision are not physical realities but spiritual concepts made possible by the work of the Spirit of God. It is totally impossible for someone to come into a living relationship with God outside of Christ and the work of the Spirit. Each believer must, of necessity, be ‘born of the Spirit’. (John 3:3-8).

Both Philippians 3 and Romans 2 purposely and significantly restrict the terms “the circumcision” and “Jew” to those today that are “in the spirit” or pneuma. Only those who are born again of the Spirit of God can fit the criteria. Anyway, there are (and have only ever been), two types of people on this earth, those that are (1) “in the flesh” and those who are “in the Spirit.” The Word of God makes clear: “if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Romans 8:9). New Testament teaching repeatedly, and powerfully, blows apart any form of Jewish nationalism.

Sam Davis said:

Israel will definitely have a part in end times. The 144000 are sealed and they are Israelites. Also the King of the North from Daniel 11 has dealings with Israel.

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Of course the king of the north (Syria) had dealings with Israel, so did the king of tha south (Egypt) but that was all fulfilled long ago.

BABerean2 said:

All of Matthew 24 was not fulfilled during 70 AD.

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Not all of it. But it was fulfilled till verse 35. The BUT changes it to the future in verse 36.

sovereigngrace said:

I used to believe that, and now i see that it is anti-biblical. The cross removed that whole system!

Whose sins does the Premil think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and the ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercede?

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I believe what Ezekiel 40 to 48 prophecies will literally come to pass. Why not?
If not, why is such detail Written in our Bible?

Remember God is an unchanging God. He will have what He always wanted; a people in His holy Land, who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, giving God the glory and making thank offerings in the Temple.

As for the current Jewish State of Israel, it is patently obvious that they are not the people God wants in His holy Land. The false teaching about their final redemption, is never stated in the Bible. A few do, as per Zechariah 12, but the idea of a general Jewish conversion to Christianity, is only believed by those who want God to take them to heaven, while the Jews go thru Tribulation. A shockingly bad and unscriptural theory.
The prophecy that plainly states what will happen is Jeremiah 12:14-16 Read it carefully for the truth of how it will be and who will occupy all of the holy Land.

keras said:

I believe what Ezekiel 40 to 48 prophecies will literally come to pass. Why not?
If not, why is such detail Written in our Bible?

Remember God is an unchanging God. He will have what He always wanted; a people in His holy Land, who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, giving God the glory and making thank offerings in the Temple.

As for the current Jewish State of Israel, it is patently obvious that they are not the people God wants in His holy Land. The false teaching about their final redemption, is never stated in the Bible. A few do, as per Zechariah 12, but the idea of a general Jewish conversion to Christianity, is only believed by those who want God to take them to heaven, while the Jews go thru Tribulation. A shockingly bad and unscriptural theory.
The prophecy that plainly states what will happen is Jeremiah 12:14-16 Read it carefully for the truth of how it will be and who will occupy all of the holy Land.

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This doesn't add up!

Where in Ezekiel 40-48 does it describe “thank offerings” being made in a future millennium which involves the butchering of countless innocent animals as “sin offerings”?

Where in Revelation 20 does it describe “thank offerings” being made in a future millennium which involves the butchering of countless innocent animals as “sin offerings”?

Where in Scripture does it describe “thank offerings” being made in a future millennium which involves the butchering of countless innocent animals as “sin offerings”?

keras said:

I believe what Ezekiel 40 to 48 prophecies will literally come to pass. Why not?
If not, why is such detail Written in our Bible?

Remember God is an unchanging God. He will have what He always wanted; a people in His holy Land, who will worship Him in spirit and in truth, giving God the glory and making thank offerings in the Temple.

As for the current Jewish State of Israel, it is patently obvious that they are not the people God wants in His holy Land. The false teaching about their final redemption, is never stated in the Bible. A few do, as per Zechariah 12, but the idea of a general Jewish conversion to Christianity, is only believed by those who want God to take them to heaven, while the Jews go thru Tribulation. A shockingly bad and unscriptural theory.
The prophecy that plainly states what will happen is Jeremiah 12:14-16 Read it carefully for the truth of how it will be and who will occupy all of the holy Land.

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You missed or avoided my question:

Whose sins do you think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercessor?

mkgal1 said:

It's not about *replacement* because the faithful Jewish remnant is included (that's the root of our entire tradition of faith). No one with faith (as JGR puts it, "spiritual DNA") is excluded or replaced. So what I'm describing isn't *replacement* - it's *expansion* theory.

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Or inclusion.

David Kent said:

Or inclusion.

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Or expansion

sovereigngrace said:

This doesn't add up!

Where in Ezekiel 40-48 does it describe “thank offerings” being made in a future millennium which involves the butchering of countless innocent animals as “sin offerings”?

Where in Revelation 20 does it describe “thank offerings” being made in a future millennium which involves the butchering of countless innocent animals as “sin offerings”?

Where in Scripture does it describe “thank offerings” being made in a future millennium which involves the butchering of countless innocent animals as “sin offerings”?

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Ezekiel 43:18-27 gives us Gods regulations for making the offerings in the new Temple.

That you don't like this truth, is your prerogative, but to dismiss it is to deny scripture.

sovereigngrace said:

You missed or avoided my question:

Whose sins do you think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercessor?

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It is prophesied that some of the faithful Christians will be appointed as priests before and during the Millennium. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

keras said:

Ezekiel 43:18-27 gives us Gods regulations for making the offerings in the new Temple.

That you don't like this truth, is your prerogative, but to dismiss it is to deny scripture.

It is prophesied that some of the faithful Christians will be appointed as priests before and during the Millennium. Isaiah 66:21, Revelation 5:10

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You have (understandably) avoided my question:

Whose sins do you think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercessor?

Isaiah 66:21 and Revelation 5:10 has absolutely nothing to do with some future millenium and your mass bloodshed of innocent lambs to fit your want of more sin offerings.

Why would we need sin offerings when the final sin offering is in our midst on the new earth?

Surely the temporal imperfect sacrifices have been replaced with the one perfect final eternal sacrifice?

If Premillennialists are so certain that animal sacrifices are going to be re-instituted in their future millennium after the Second Coming, why don't they just go ahead and get them started now? If they are valid during the millennium, what would make them invalid now?

sovereigngrace said:

If Premillennialists are so certain that animal sacrifices are going to be re-instituted in their future millennium after the Second Coming, why don't they just go ahead and get them started now? If they are valid during the millennium, what would make them invalid now?

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Historical premillenialists believe only Christians will be in the millenium, if I understand their teaching correctly.

David Kent said:

Historical premillenialists believe only Christians will be in the millenium, if I understand their teaching correctly.

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Not so. Who are the billions of wicked at the end of the MK that turn against Christ?

sovereigngrace said:

You have (understandably) avoided my question:

Whose sins do you think the Zadok priesthood need to make “sacrifices for” and what sinner needs additional intercession in the millennium in light of the presence of Jesus Christ – man’s only high priest and ultimate and final sin-bearer and intercessor?

Isaiah 66:21 and Revelation 5:10 has absolutely nothing to do with some future millenium and your mass bloodshed of innocent lambs to fit your want of more sin offerings.

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This is a rude and confrontational post.
You ask questions that only God can answer. I simply show where the Bible says He will require sacrifices again. Zechariah 14:21 proves it.

I now demand that you tell me when Isaiah 66:21 and Rev 5:10 will happen.