How Free will establishes FAITH... but what would I know.....

Does free will establish your FAITH as you define Faith?

  • yes

    Votes: 11 45.8%
  • no

    Votes: 11 45.8%
  • what????????????????????????? Maybe??????

    Votes: 2 8.3%

  • Total voters
    24

BBAS 64

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By their own free will. We are not locked into to one position at all ever. Something could happen where someone does something good or something bad happens to a person and the lost see this and change their minds. That is why I reject Calvinism wholesale because they think man is locked int his position and can do nothing about it, to me that idea is quite repugnant

Good Day, Charsan

Now something we can agree on...

If something does not happen I do notice here the "happening thing is external" it is not some thing internal to the person. They have a change of mind... Their wills are impacted ( effected) by something they can not control (thus not free) "something good happens" that is the cause.

That external primary cause of that some thing good would be God. He does something and we are directly effected (results).

Eze 36: 26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules


God who is external gives a new heart ( by His free will choice), removes the stone one. Puts a new Spirit in you which is His.

The direct results that this causes are walk in His statutes, and carefully obey his rules these are the purposes he achieves by the work that He does. If he does nothing nothing changes...

I have a feeling you have misunderstood the Historical Christian Doctrine know as the Doctrines Of Grace. Dead men stay dead unless acted upon by an external force that has the ability to change that status. The only one that does that is God Salvation and live is the work of God alone.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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The weight of choosing ones salvation is too great for a totally depraved man to bare. The reality is that to believe in free will in salvation you must believe that there is some good in the heart of mankind and that is clearly not supported in scripture. Jer 17:9 and Matt 15:18-20 make that abundantly clear. A dead heart can only be made alive by God himself. Free will is a millstone around the neck of man, a terrible heresy.


Good Day, RedWing

"Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure"


- George Whitefield
 
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aiki

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On the matter of free will I subscribe to what is called "soft libertarianism." This is the idea that there are times in a person's life of genuine free choice but, as choices are made, they begin to constrict a person's future choices, hardening the person into certain lines of thinking and behaviour so that, in time, genuinely free choice is gone and only the momentum of past choices now carries the person along. This is the pattern observable in the life of, say, a person who becomes addicted to drugs or alcohol. It is what is in evidence in the life of an aging person who becomes "set in their ways." This is also the process of hardening of which the Bible sometimes speaks.

Does Free Will destroy faith? I don't see how. If the Calvinist is correct, faith is imposed upon the believer by God. The one whom God sovereignly decrees to have faith shall have faith and all those whom He has decreed to be faithless shall be so. What is faith, then, in the Calvinist regime of things but the imposition of God's will upon a person? This is not faith as I understand it but divine puppetry.

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org - Search "Molinism"
 
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BBAS 64

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Free will is the basis for faith in Christ. We freely choose to accept Him and follow Him, or to reject Him.

Good Day,

That cause (basis) would be God's free will in granting (gifting) Faith correct?

Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

The Faith that is granted by God's hand, in accordance with His will and purpose; will always find His Son as it's object that is the nature of the granted Faith.

In Him,

Bill
 
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BBAS 64

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On the matter of free will I subscribe to what is called "soft libertarianism." This is the idea that there are times in a person's life of genuine free choice but, as choices are made, they begin to constrict a person's future choices, hardening the person into certain lines of thinking and behaviour so that, in time, genuinely free choice is gone and only the momentum of past choices now carries the person along. This is the pattern observable in the life of, say, a person who becomes addicted to drugs or alcohol. It is what is in evidence in the life of an aging person who becomes "set in their ways." This is also the process of hardening of which the Bible sometimes speaks.

Does Free Will destroy faith? I don't see how. If the Calvinist is correct, faith is imposed upon the believer by God. The one whom God sovereignly decrees to have faith shall have faith and all those whom He has decreed to be faithless shall be so. What is faith, then, in the Calvinist regime of things but the imposition of God's will upon a person? This is not faith as I understand it but divine puppetry.

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org - Search "Molinism"

Good Day, Aiki

Divine Puppetry does not sound so bad as being a slave....

It is a very presumptuous thing when the puppets thinks more highly of it's self than it should.

ISA 40:7 All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.

Slaves do exactly as the Master would have it, and are constrained by the Master's will:

Gen 20
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

In Him,.

Bill
 
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Dave L

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Good Day, Aiki

Divine Puppetry does not sound so bad as being a slave....

It is a very presumptuous thing when the puppets thinks more highly of it's self than it should.

ISA 40:7 All the nations are as nothing before him, they are accounted by him as less than nothing and emptiness.

Slaves do exactly as the Master would have it, and are constrained by the Master's will:

Gen 20
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

In Him,.

Bill
I would much prefer doing God's will as a slave of Christ than doing my own pathetic will.
 
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His student

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Does free will establish your FAITH as you define faith?
The will of all men is free to act according to their nature.

Our nature in our original fallen state, according to the scriptures, is predisposed to not believe the gospel.

God must act in a way that opens our eyes, as He did with Lydia and Paul, if we are to respond positively in faith to the gospel.

In this respect God's effectual call "establishes" faith and not our original fallen nature with it's tainted will.

Of that there can be no doubt according to the clear testimony of the scriptures.

For whom God so acts with that effectual call and what criteria He uses in choosing on whom to act is a discussion for another thread lest this one be hijacked by the ubiquitous and contentious Calvinist/Arminian controversy.

If anyone disagrees with what I have said before that last paragraph - their disagreement is with God and not with me.:)
 
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dqhall

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Over time we make choices and depending on what we feed our minds through our eyes we can decrease....... or increase the level of darkness still in us.

Matthew 6
verse 23
"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"


Luk 11:34

The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.

When was the last time that we begged Messiah Yeshua - Jesus for MORE OF HIS HOLY SPRIT and Wisdom and understanding??????????

Jhn 16:24

Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
I suppose ignorance has decreased the amount of light a person gets. I might be watching a TV channel, but that takes way an opportunity for greater learning in rereading Deutero-Isaiah (Isaiah 40-55). On the other hand, if I am in Facebook I might miss an opportunity to see a useful report on TV. There is a problem if I focus on things that are not healthy for me. I can not always talk to someone a drive perfectly at the same time. If I like false gossip, I lose sight of perfection. Slander is not a good place to be.
 
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DennisTate

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I suppose ignorance has decreased the amount of light a person gets. I might be watching a TV channel, but that takes way an opportunity for greater learning in rereading Deutero-Isaiah (Isaiah 40-55). On the other hand, if I am in Facebook I might miss an opportunity to see a useful report on TV. There is a problem if I focus on things that are not healthy for me. I can not always talk to someone a drive perfectly at the same time. If I like false gossip, I lose sight of perfection. Slander is not a good place to be.

Exactly!

Luk 8:18

Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
 
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DennisTate

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The will of all men is free to act according to their nature.

Our nature in our original fallen state, according to the scriptures, is predisposed to not believe the gospel.

God must act in a way that opens our eyes, as He did with Lydia and Paul, if we are to respond positively in faith to the gospel.

In this respect God's effectual call "establishes" faith and not our original fallen nature with it's tainted will.

Of that there can be no doubt according to the clear testimony of the scriptures.

For whom God so acts with that effectual call and what criteria He uses in choosing on whom to act is a discussion for another thread lest this one be hijacked by the ubiquitous and contentious Calvinist/Arminian controversy.

If anyone disagrees with what I have said before that last paragraph - their disagreement is with God and not with me.:)

I have to admit that I guess I was hoping that some Calvinists might just take a step in the direction of a larger view by beginning this so I don't really mind if this is hijacked.
 
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Ken Rank

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Ken, sin is our nature.. we are born children of wrath
No, we were born with a death sentence pronounced over us. We might be saying the same thing, so I won't push this because it's probably just semantics.
 
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rnmomof7

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No, we were born with a death sentence pronounced over us. We might be saying the same thing, so I won't push this because it's probably just semantics.

I was just quoting Paul in Ephesians
 
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Halbhh

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It is free will that allows us to respond to Faith by either rejecting or embracing Faith.
Yes.

Faith is trusting.

We have that choice (which isn't the same as being drawn, nor the same as being moved, nor the same as being helped, all of which are from Him....).

Adam and Eve -- really did have a choice. They didn't have that choice to distrust God made for them.

It was a real choice.
 
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Neogaia777

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Yes.

Faith is trusting.

We have that choice (which isn't the same as being drawn, nor the same as being moved, nor the same as being helped, all of which are from Him....).

Adam and Eve -- really did have a choice. They didn't have that choice to distrust God made for them.

It was a real choice.
@All

Do think the fall was "destined to happen"....? Meant to happen, etc...? Supposed to happen, etc...?
 
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charsan

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I have a feeling you have misunderstood the Historical Christian Doctrine know as the Doctrines Of Grace. Dead men stay dead unless acted upon by an external force that has the ability to change that status. The only one that does that is God Salvation and live is the work of God alone.

I do not misunderstand it and that doctrine is one of man and not from the Historic Church. Unfortunately man did like the Historic Church and Historic Christianity so made up their own ideas and claim that this is how it is. As I said I find man made reformed doctrine repugnant and not anything that is to be found in the Early Church.
 
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Neogaia777

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I think a big problem a lot of people have with a God who already made all our choices for us basically or essentially, is how could He make some for evil and some for good, or some to wind up ending up in hell and some for heaven, etc...?

But, when you truly understand what hell really truly is, (the what, etc) and that it is here, and remaining here or staying in fallen realities like these, etc, for eternity, etc, and that's the "what", etc... then understanding the "why" of why He does that, etc, it kind of just all falls into line and into play and into place, and all makes perfect sense, etc... And you can see how it is all just, etc...

But if you don't know or can't see that, a God who already made and/or predetermined all our choices for us basically, is not going to make any kind of sense at all to you, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Bruce Leiter

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I am just a janitor at a school who reads a lot but I am no expert on such questions from any recognized angle?????


How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)




You will certainly want to see the opening post in that discussion which can be viewed here:

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)



Personally .... I rather like a historical Elijah who was capable of giving in to fear and running away to Mt. Horeb even though that sure seemed to NOT be where G-d wanted Elijah to be at the time that G-d asked him two times.....
"What doest thou here Elijah?"

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?
Personally, I prefer John Calvin's principle of interpreting the Bible, "Go as far as the Bible goes, and then stop." When we speculate beyond the Bible's bounds, we spend useless time.
 
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