How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)

1Reformedman

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No. Godly sorrow leads to repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Okay, really. I am moving on now.

May God bless you all.
Godly sorrow only occurs after one has been convicted of his sin and regenerated. A lost one does not have Godly sorrow. Put your free will doctrine in the trash where it belongs. Godly sorrow is a spiritual thing and a lost one can't understand spiritual things. Anything dealing with knowing God relationally is a spiritual thing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Unregenerate men love their sin and willfully rebel against God. So Gods judgement is just. True repentance resembles an acknowledgement of ones inability to please God by his own righteousness and yet yearns for a righteousness outside himself. Which is found in Christ alone. True repentance seeks Gods mercy for forgiveness by casting himself on Christ

How is it that they “willfully” rebel against God if they are incapable of repentance?
 
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1Reformedman

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God grants repentance
Yes he does according to the whole cousel of his will. He bestows saving grace upon those whom he chose to save before the foundation of the world began. God's will is being done on earth as it has ALREADY been done in heaven. The earth is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God
 
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1Reformedman

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According to Calvin He doesn’t grant it to all. So God’s judgement on the unelected is unjust because according to Calvin they are incapable of repentance.

The Bible clarifies that in Romans 9:22. He created two types of human vessels. One type are the vessels of this wrath who were predestined (prepared) for eternal ruin and the others are the vessels of his mercy who were also prepared (predestined) to receive that mercy. They will receive that mercy in the form of being granted salvation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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because they are without excuse that's why

Do you understand the definition of incapable? If I am INCAPABLE of surviving in outer space does that mean I have no excuse for not surviving in outer space?
 
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1Reformedman

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Not according to scripture. And shouting just makes you look desperate.
You assume Im shouting instead of asking if I'm shouting. I use all caps for emphasis not for yelling. According to scripture, God chose whom He would save before the foundation of the world began and he did that choosing according to the whole counsel of HIS WILL, NOT YOUR FALLEN HUMAN WILL IN AN ALLEGED FREE WILL CHOICE. YOUR WILL ISNT FREE WHEN ITS IN BONDAGE TO SIN.
 
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1Reformedman

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Do you understand the definition of incapable? If I am INCAPABLE of surviving in outer space does that mean I have no excuse for not surviving in outer space?

Do you think God acts according to man's understanding of what words mean OR HIS? Remember he gave us languages.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Bible clarifies that in Romans 9:22. He created two types of human vessels. One type are the vessels of this wrath who were predestined (prepared) for eternal ruin and the others are the vessels of his mercy who were also prepared (predestined) to receive that mercy. They will receive that mercy in the form of being granted salvation.

Romans 9 is not even about election it’s about God turning His calling to the Gentiles.

“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ' MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ' BELOVED.'" " AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD." Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, " THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." And just as Isaiah foretold, " UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH." What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The Gentiles were the vessels of wrath which he is now being patient towards. He did this to make the vessels of mercy (The Jews) jealous.

“For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, " THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." " THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:25-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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renniks

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You assume Im shouting instead of asking if I'm shouting. I use all caps for emphasis not for yelling. According to scripture, God chose whom He would save before the foundation of the world began and he did that choosing according to the whole counsel of HIS WILL, NOT YOUR FALLEN HUMAN WILL IN AN ALLEGED FREE WILL CHOICE. YOUR WILL ISNT FREE WHEN ITS IN BONDAGE TO SIN.
Sigh. More yelling. What was chosen was the plan of salvation. The chosen "us" is whoever believes.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Define repentance..

G3340


Lemma:

μετανοέω


Transliteration:

metanoéō


Pronounce:

met-an-o-eh'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:
1) to change one's mind, i.e. to repent

2) to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins"Repentance (metanoia, 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God; the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to accept the divine forgiveness." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 97.)
 
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1Reformedman

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How is it that they “willfully” rebel against God if they are incapable of repentance?

"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also,
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Acts 26:20


"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn
to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus."
Acts 20:21

There is a divergence of viewpoints on this topic that, recently, has led to quite a bit of contention among evangelicals. This has also been known as the Lordship, no-Lordship debate. After we strip away the bark what is left is the difference between the Reformed and a Synergistic (especially dispensational) view of salvation. After doing some serious personal contemplation over this I have personally come to the conclusion that the difference lies in each camps’ understanding of the doctrine of regeneration.

The dispensationalists/synergists will argue that to require repentance, as part of salvation, is to actually add another requirement to ‘faith alone’. In other words, to require belief in Christ’s Lordship in addition to the belief in Christ as Savior is tantamount to adding a work and confusing the simple gospel of faith alone with some action on the believers’ part. Any addition to simple faith is seen as another gospel and dangerously close to salvation by works. Such critics would thus define repentance to only mean a change of mind towards one’s previous view of Christ.


On the other hand, the Reformed understanding of salvation is that God commands all persons to repent and believe the gospel. Repentance here means to turn away from all known sin and from trusting in one’s good works. A Reformed understanding sees faith and repentance as two sides of the same coin that really cannot be separated. To believe in Jesus means recognizing that one is was a sinner in rebellion against God. It is not simply adding Jesus to one’s life among other interests but to consciously forsake other loves and idols. Prior to salvation, one’s love for sin was more than one’s love for God. In fact, before salvation, one cannot love God. The result of grace working in one’s soul caused the repentant sinner to have a new affection for God that now desires God more than he desires to sin.


I will argue here that the difference between these two positions is no mere argument about semantics. Rather, this is an argument about hermeneutics, about how one understands God’s work of salvation in one’s soul. I commend the dispensational/synergistic position for attempting to protect the simple doctrine of faith alone but it fails to take into account the doctrine of regeneration. Understandably, the dispensationalists/synergists see the additional requirement of repentance as unbiblical from their viewpoint since they have embraced a synergistic (free-will) scheme of salvation. What do I mean by this? I mean that most free will proponents teach that the atonement and grace are God’s part in salvation, while faith is our part. But the atonement and the grace they speak of is not effectual in and of itself and cannot affect the completion of salvation without the cooperation and consent of the sinner. Somehow the sinner, in his unregenerate, fallen state has the natural moral ability to turn to Christ in faith with some help from God’s grace. But in the final analysis, it is the sinner that contributes his faith as part of the requirement of salvation. Such a belief sees regeneration as the result of, rather than the cause of, faith.


The Reformed understanding of repentance and faith is that both of these are not something that the sinner contributes to the price of his or her salvation. They are, rather, the supernatural result of God working new affections in their soul. Therefore, repentance is not something that the sinner is adding in addition to faith as a work, but both repentance and faith are seen as the infallible result of the new birth that is applied to sinners by the Holy Spirit. A biblical understanding sees faith and repentance not as something we create or perform or supply, apart from regenerative grace. The unregenerate are truly incapable of creating a right thought, generating a right affection, or originating a right volition, so God, in His mercy, gives to His people freely, that which He demands from us. God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37) draws His chosen ones to repentance and faith in Christ. The gospel confesses, "We love Him because He first loved us."


When admonishing us to teach the gospel to unbelievers the Scripture says do so, "with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth." (emphasis mine). It couldn't be more clear that the apostles viewed repentance as something God enables us to do, since the unsaved are being held captive by the devil to do his will and unable and unwilling to loose their chains on their own.


What I would argue, therefore, is that it is the dispensational view that actually adds to the simplicity of the gospel of grace. That is because I believe the Scriptures teach that the very desire for faith itself is a gift of God’s mercy. The idea that it is something that we ourselves generate in our fallen nature is the cause of great confusion in our day. All evangelicals will agree that faith is our responsibility but a deficient view of man’s depravity has led to erroneous doctrines that make faith itself something we have to contribute to our salvation and therefore it is perilously close to trusting in something we do in order to win God’s approval for salvation. If you don’t see this, ask yourself how a fallen sinner who hates God suddenly was able to generate affections for God. If I share the gospel to two men sitting in the same room and one believes the gospel, why is it that he believed and not the other? Was one more spiritual, have more love, have a better knowledge, originate a better thought? From where in his soul did he get the power to believe? Any answer other than God’s pure grace is saying that God choose us because of something right or good within us. Even if you believe that God initiates with grace (as a synergist), we still have to respond by drawing from something within our unregenerate nature. The Scriptures testify that the:


“… natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Cor 2:14


And


“…the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.” Rom 8:7


So in the end, I would argue, it is actually the synergistic dispensational view that is erroneously making additions to the pure gospel that says, “salvation is of the Lord.” They very beginning and desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to us through regeneration: does this belong to us by nature or is it a gift of grace itself, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness? If not then you have missed the point of the Scripture which declares, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8). Grace does not depend on the humility or obedience of man but it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, for the Scriptures testify "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).


So the requirement for repentance and to believe that Christ is Lord is plainly taught in the Scripture. The dispensational view would have one reject Christ’s Lordship when coming to faith. No, the correct understanding is that God works new affections in us. When spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit, the word of God has the power to graciously open people's eyes, change the disposition of their hearts, and bring them to faith and repentance (James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23, 25). Anything less is to misapprehend what God does when he raises us from spiritual death. Faith and repentance are not something we get the glory for: God gets all the glory.


Does God have mercy upon us, apart from His regenerative grace, so that we believe, will, desire, strive and labor? Shouldn’t we all confess that it is by the efficacious working and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we even have the faith, the will, or the desire to do all these things as we ought to? Repentance or yielding to the Lordship of Christ at the time of salvation is just a simple product of our new nature in Christ, not something we do to earn a new nature. I would argue that many dispensationalists who uphold no-Lordship are actually teaching that salvation is by grace plus faith rather than this historic Christian teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. That even faith itself is not of ourselves but a divine gift to the soul, for what do we have that we did not receive?. (2 Tim 2:25, Phil 1:29, Hebrews 12:2, 1 John 5:1, Rom 3:24, Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:26-27; Eph 2:8, John 1:13) Do you see the difference? One makes faith something we contribute to complete the work of salvation while the other views salvation as a work of God alone.


To conclude, this issue is so critical that the church in America must reclaim a right understanding this doctrine if it has any hope of continuing usefulness to God in the world. God deals with us personally, not as abstractions, as those who have transgressed His law, who are hostile and engaged in obstinate rebellion against His legitimate authority in our lives. The seriousness of man's fallen condition has often been put aside in modern churches due to, what I believe, are erroneous views of repentance. The casualness of our message to merely "accept Jesus" without helping people to understand our wretched condition, allows many to remain stubbornly unyielding in their pride and sin. This large-scale "user-friendly" message in today's evangelical churches have given rise to a Christianity that gives hollow worship to Christ but creates a heart that remains unrenewed and still delights in sin. Many are unwilling to give the Lord their allegiance because they have not been born again. They are told, however, that because they "accepted Jesus into their heart" at some moment in the past that it doesn't matter that they now live in rebellion against God. The continuing spirit of defiant, willful rebellion to Christ's authority as an unbroken pattern of our churches are a direct result of a lack of understanding among church leaders of the doctrine of regeneration.

Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation
 
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1Reformedman

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Sigh. More yelling. What was chosen was the plan of salvation. The chosen "us" is whoever believes.
I just told you that when I use ALL caps its not yelling its for clarification., I dont know why you have to try to push YOUR arrogance upon me.
 
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Concord1968

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You assume Im shouting instead of asking if I'm shouting. I use all caps for emphasis not for yelling. According to scripture, God chose whom He would save before the foundation of the world began and he did that choosing according to the whole counsel of HIS WILL, NOT YOUR FALLEN HUMAN WILL IN AN ALLEGED FREE WILL CHOICE. YOUR WILL ISNT FREE WHEN ITS IN BONDAGE TO SIN.
All caps on the internet is shouting. If you wish to emphasize something, consider using italics and bold font. That's what I do mostly.
 
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1Reformedman

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I just told you that when I use ALL caps its not yelling its for clarification., I dont know why you have to try to push YOUR arrogance upon me.


Ok tell us what John 3:16 says about the natural moral ability of a lost one to choose Christ?
 
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1Reformedman

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All caps on the internet is shouting. If you wish to emphasize something, consider using italics and bold font. That's what I do mostly.
That's is YOUR OPINION and when you try to say many people know that its yelling on the internet Im going to call you on the logical fallacy of appealing to consensus. I think YOU presume that everyone should be as computer savvy as You may be.
 
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Halbhh

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Ok tell us what John 3:16 says about the natural moral ability of a lost one to choose Christ?

(about: Adam and Eve really did have a real choice.)

You asked yourself this question above, and it's such an interesting one, so if you will kindly let me chip in....

This wonderful verse says whoever will believe. That doesn't necessarily mean we do that 100% by ourselves.

But...consider some pieces of this. We are 100% God-created. And what He made was "very good" He said to us all. (Genesis chapter 1)

Though the world is fallen, with evil in it, we still nevertheless it appears have some partial ability to choose -- which He put in us -- even if the real situation is like we move only an inch (or a millimeter!), and then He moves us by miles!

Even if He does all the work that matters. Still, nevertheless, He made us...able to believe.

Believe isn't doing. It's.........trusting. It's like a heart action. Or maybe a spirit action. But that spirit we all have -- it's spirit He put in us.

What Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 3, with hyperbole by using bits of verses from different situations, is that the people do become lost in a fallen culture, so that 'none seek' (hyperbole)....because all are lost!

We need His help, even just to escape this morass of quicksand. This fallen, worldly culture.

But, He made us able to believe. Adam and Eve really did have a real choice. They were not made to distrust.

They choose to distrust.

We are made able to trust. If we will, and He wonderfully pulls on us, drawing us.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


 
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section9+1

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We do choose Christ but not until God has already regenerated us. The reason this is true is that the lost one cannot please God, he is spiritually dead, deaf and blind. He cannot understand spiritual things and he HATES God. His mind is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can it be so subject. The lost one is in bondage to the old nature that has NO desire for God. A lost one cant even SEE the Kingdom of God (which is a spiritual thing) unless he's been born again. A lost one can not believe in Christ (belief is a spiritual thing) unless God has opened his spiritual ears and eyes, destroyed the hatred the lost one has for Him, removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that Can and will love God whereas the desperately wicked heart is only evil continually.

IF a lost one is so depraved that he can't understand spiritual things, that he cannot please God, where do you get the idea that you can choose christ while still in bondage to the sin nature? Would choose christ please God? Yes, it would. So perhaps you should look at what the bible says exegetically rather than reading it eisegetically so that the bible matches your presuppositions.
So when God turns the lost one into his personal puppet, then he can please God. Are you pleasing God or is God just pleasing himself? You aren't choosing Christ; he's choosing himself. You're just a fixture.
 
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