Yes, murder CAN be justified...

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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Wars are mostly about how individuals serve a Caesar in one way or another.

God on the other hand will only employ His chosen Israel to do the job, such that Israel can survive history to bring today's humans with God's salvation. Only God's salvation has such a priority.

Evil will be destroyed at the point of the Final Judgment. Before that everyone is given a chance to repent, unless the peoples are under Satan's employment (such as the Canaanites) to try to undermine God's plan. Then God will go through Israel to have them eradicated.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

That was under the Old Law and he was therefore justified in doing it. Can you show an example under grace?

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Jesus is the same Yesterday today and forever.

He is not subject to human concepts of dispensation.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

Click to expand...

Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 20:13

Killing is an undesirable scenario and if it is desirable it is a sin.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

Click to expand...

I don't think that's murder. Murder is when a person determines beforehand to take the life of another. While we can argue about war, you kind of put the nail in that coffin pointing out that the person taking the life isn't doing so of his own accord. And self defense wouldn't count, either, as even the Torah (law) declares that taking a life in self defense is justified. Only when we have the self determined premeditation of killing do we have murder. And there is no biblical justification for that!

Carl Emerson said:

Jesus is the same Yesterday today and forever.

He is not subject to human concepts of dispensation.

Click to expand...

Christ is indeed the same, so when he tells us there will be a New law and a New covenant it must then of Course come to Pass.

Christ Fulfilled the Whole Law of the Covenant:Matt 5:17-20;Luke 16:16-17; Luke 24:25-27, 44-49;John 19:30; Acts 13:38-41; Romans 10:4; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 7:18-19,22; Hebrews 8:4-13; Hebrews 9:14-15; Hebrews 12:2;

The Handwriting of Ordinances that was a witness against Israel(Deut 31:26) has been blotted out/completed by Christ’s blood- Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 9:1, 10,11,13,23-28; Ephesians 2:15

Law of Moses finished- Luke 24:25-27, 44-48; Acts 13:39; Acts 15:5; Acts 28:23; Mark 12:26-27

Ephesians 3:
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

We are told that we are now under a New Law, we are now under grace, and the Law of Faith(Romans 3:21-22,24-27,31; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 11:1-3,39-40).

So looking directly at the word of God we find that we now have a New law in Christ, the Law of Christ. And this Law is different from that of the Law of Moses which allowed us to kill and harm others.

So again can you show where it says we may harm others under grace? Hint, you cannot.

God bless and Guide you Brother

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Christ is indeed the same, so when he tells us there will be a New law and a New covenant it must then of Course come to Pass.

Christ Fulfilled the Whole Law of the Covenant:Matt 5:17-20;Luke 16:16-17; Luke 24:25-27, 44-49;John 19:30; Acts 13:38-41; Romans 10:4; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 7:18-19,22; Hebrews 8:4-13; Hebrews 9:14-15; Hebrews 12:2;

The Handwriting of Ordinances that was a witness against Israel(Deut 31:26) has been blotted out/completed by Christ’s blood- Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 9:1, 10,11,13,23-28; Ephesians 2:15

Law of Moses finished- Luke 24:25-27, 44-48; Acts 13:39; Acts 15:5; Acts 28:23; Mark 12:26-27

Ephesians 3:
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

We are told that we are now under a New Law, we are now under grace, and the Law of Faith(Romans 3:21-22,24-27,31; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 11:1-3,39-40).

So looking directly at the word of God we find that we now have a New law in Christ, the Law of Christ. And this Law is different from that of the Law of Moses which allowed us to kill and harm others.

So again can you show where it says we may harm others under grace? Hint, you cannot.

God bless and Guide you Brother

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Actually, the burden of proof is on you in this instance. You're suggesting that we are under a new law, you have called this the Law of Christ.

Can you show me the verse that outlines the law of Christ? Can you then demonstrate how the law of Christ specifically teaches that we are not allowed to protect our family and loved ones if they are physically threatened?

SPF said:

Actually, the burden of proof is on you in this instance. You're suggesting that we are under a new law, you have called this the Law of Christ.

Can you show me the verse that outlines the law of Christ? Can you then demonstrate how the law of Christ specifically teaches that we are not allowed to protect our family and loved ones if they are physically threatened?

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See post 73 for all that the Law of Christ teaches about violence and Harming others.

And i will message you the study showing that the Law of Moses is finished and that we have a New law in Christ(the Law of Faith/the Law of Spirit/The law of Christ. It would take up three or four posts to put it in this thread.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH said:

Christ is indeed the same, so when he tells us there will be a New law and a New covenant it must then of Course come to Pass.

Christ Fulfilled the Whole Law of the Covenant:Matt 5:17-20;Luke 16:16-17; Luke 24:25-27, 44-49;John 19:30; Acts 13:38-41; Romans 10:4; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 7:18-19,22; Hebrews 8:4-13; Hebrews 9:14-15; Hebrews 12:2;

The Handwriting of Ordinances that was a witness against Israel(Deut 31:26) has been blotted out/completed by Christ’s blood- Colossians 2:14; Hebrews 9:1, 10,11,13,23-28; Ephesians 2:15

Law of Moses finished- Luke 24:25-27, 44-48; Acts 13:39; Acts 15:5; Acts 28:23; Mark 12:26-27

Ephesians 3:
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

We are told that we are now under a New Law, we are now under grace, and the Law of Faith(Romans 3:21-22,24-27,31; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 11:1-3,39-40).

So looking directly at the word of God we find that we now have a New law in Christ, the Law of Christ. And this Law is different from that of the Law of Moses which allowed us to kill and harm others.

So again can you show where it says we may harm others under grace? Hint, you cannot.

God bless and Guide you Brother

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Your position goes beyond Covenant, it is giving Him a new moral definition.

You can quote all you want, but to suggest He Himself now has a new morality is preposterous.

If He so chooses, He will wipe out the wicked as He has done in the past and may or may not use believers as His instrument - or maybe just a destroying angel.

God is not a pacifist.

Carl Emerson said:

Your position goes beyond Covenant, it is giving Him a new moral definition.

You can quote all you want, but to suggest He Himself now has a new morality is preposterous.

If He so chooses, He will wipe out the wicked as He has done in the past and may or may not use believers as His instrument - or maybe just a destroying angel.

God is not a pacifist.

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He does not have a New morality, nor did I suggest that. He still kills, he still wages war against the wicked(of which I have seen personally). But we as his servants Now have New weapons with which we wage war against evil and those methods are spiritual. His Morality did not change, the way WE fight evil did.

God will wipe out the wicked. We will not.

God is not a pacifist, but his children are non violent. God avenges for vengeance is his not ours. Why do you seek to take God's vengeance, a part of God's character upon yourself when he has told us that it is his alone?

God bless brother.

Gal 3 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Are you now going to claim Jesus is a pacifist but His Father isn't???

Carl Emerson said:

Gal 3 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Are you now going to claim Jesus is a pacifist but His Father isn't???

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Yahshua is the one who comes and destroys all the wicked with fire((Matthew 24:29-31; Micah 1:3-4; Isaiah 66:15-17; 26:2; 2:19; Zephaniah 1:2-3,18; 2:2; 3:8; Haggai 2:6-7; Malachi 4:1; Joel 2:10-11,31; Hosea 10:8; 2 Thess 1:7-9; 1 Thess 4:16; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; Revelation 20:9). So no they are not different.

But again nowhere under grace is it written that we can kill a man, and in doing so rob him of his chance at salvation.

OK, so we are to clothe ourselves with Christ but not the naughty part...

Carl Emerson said:

OK, so we are to clothe ourselves with Christ but not the naughty part...

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He tells us that is not Part of our calling, it is his alone, and since it is the Lord telling us this I am inclined to believe him.