Al Touthentop

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It says Jesus will descend, it doesn't have to say to earth as there is nowhere elso to descend to. He will descend the same way he ascended, Acts 1:11

Jesus is descending,. Bible says that clearly. He will come the same way he left.

But not to the earth. It says we will meet him in the air.

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Peter says that the earth will be burned up on that same day.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found."

Not coming back to live on the earth. Certainly not for a thousand years.
 
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solid_core

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But not to the earth. It says we will meet him in the air.

"After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

Peter says that the earth will be burned up on that same day.

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found."

Not coming back to live on the earth. Certainly not for a thousand years.
Paul is saying "we", that means his generation, him and the ones he wrote to...
 
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Al Touthentop

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Paul is saying "we", that means his generation, him and the ones he wrote to...

And he qualifies that WE with this:

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. "

He uses that phrase twice. He isn't saying they WILL be alive and remain, he says that those who are will experience the day of the Lord in the way he tells them. He uses this phrase rhetorically saying that those who are alive, will be caught up AFTER the dead are resurrected.

Jesus is clearly not coming to reside on earth. Because of this clear passage and Peter's you've got to modify your thinking, not twist other scriptures into supporting error. Thus, the thousand year reign cannot be talking about Christ literally coming back at his "second coming" to rule on the earth.

Jesus himself said, and this should also influence our thinking, "My kingdom is not of this world."

He isn't going to rule the earth later. He rules us from heaven, right now. I am convinced that Paul and Peter wrote what they did about this so that readers wouldn't get the wrong ideas about Revelation. But, that doesn't stop people. They ignore this plain language and then interpret figurative language as if it were literal.

God isn't trying to confuse us. He put all the required information in the scriptures. It's up to us to read it, digest it and believe it. Sometimes that requires that we put aside our errors.
 
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David Kent

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davidkent,

1. Ok, it says “and so shall ever be with the Lord” and not Heaven.
So where do you think the Lord and his saints will go to after he raptures the dead and living saints according to the scriptures because it doesn’t say to the earth either and I am sure we will not stay in the clouds. Jerry Kelso
Jesus is descending,. Bible says that clearly. He will come the same way he left.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jesus is descending,. Bible says that clearly. He will come the same way he left.

davidkent,

1. V9; He was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
V10; taken up into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into Heaven.
I will correct myself from my post about no clouds at the second coming.
It is true when I said no clouds in Revelation 19 but, I forgot about Revelation 1:7; Behold he cometh with clouds and every eye shall see him and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so Amen.

2. The difference is that in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says we who are alive and remain (on Earth) shall be caught up together with Christ and the dead in Christ he brings with him in the clouds.
There is no sign of kindreds of earth including the Jews in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
Christ comes back to the Mount of Olives at the Second coming Zechariah 14:1-9.
So this matches up with Acts 1:9-12.
But Acts 1 is not the rapture to Christ in the clouds for does not come from the air to earth, but he comes out of Heaven to earth.
He will be coming at the second advent with his saints to do war Revelation 19:11-18 on the kingdoms of the world which he will subdue at that time Revelation 11:15.
The rapture saints are raptured to the air and ever be with the Lord. We will be taken to Heaven to stay during the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:10; 11:18; 19:7-10. Jerry Kelso
 
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David Kent

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But Acts 1 is not the rapture to Christ in the clouds for does not come from the air to earth, but he comes out of Heaven to,earth.

In my last church, A dispy preacher from the Plymouth Brethren preahed on Acts 1. He said that Jesus was coming to the Jews not Christians as Christians weren't there.
Afterwards, I asked him where were Christians then? He said in heaven. I was about to ask another question when he stormed off, saying I didn't believe the bible. Seems he disagreed with your understanding.

When I was in the Brethren, we were taught that Jesus was coming for his saints and then with his saints. His interpretaion seemed to add a third coming.

Both are wrong. The saints will be raised on the LAST DAY. John 6:39,40,44,54 John 11:24 Judgment will be on the LAST DAY John 12:48
 
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jerry kelso

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In my last church, A dispy preacher from the Plymouth Brethren preahed on Acts 1. He said that Jesus was coming to the Jews not Christians as Christians weren't there.
Afterwards, I asked him where were Christians then? He said in heaven. I was about to ask another question when he stormed off, saying I didn't believe the bible. Seems he disagreed with your understanding.

When I was in the Brethren, we were taught that Jesus was coming for his saints and then with his saints. His interpretaion seemed to add a third coming.

Both are wrong. The saints will be raised on the LAST DAY. John 6:39,40,44,54 John 11:24 Judgment will be on the LAST DAY John 12:48

davidkent,

1. The last day is an Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection that the Jews understood.
Hebrews 6:1-2: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.
These were Old Testament doctrines for Christ taught the law and had to fulfill the law Matthew 5:17-18; Galatians 4:4.
Those Jews were to not go back into Judaism because there was no salvation in Judaism. They were under pressure to fall away from the New Covenant.
V4 about impossible for those once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost etc. if they fall away they can’t be renewed to repentance again seeing they would crucify the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.
The late Greek scholar Kenneth Weiss said this could not happen today.

2. As far as the resurrection of the dead at the last day if you read Revelation, the 1st resurrection are all tribulation saints who will died who didn’t take the mark Revelation 20:4-6.
They are the same as those who sang the song of Moses and the lamb which implies they are New Covenant Jews in Revelation 15:1-2. They will be a part of those who go to Heaven Revelation 19:7-10 and come back with the saints and Christ who comes to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.
This is not the rapture where the saints that are alive and remain on the earth are raptured to the air to be with the Lord and the dead saints who Christ will bring with him from Heaven. We will go back to Heaven and stay through the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.

3. When Christ comes back at the 2nd advent he comes to take the kingdoms of the world Revelation 11:15 and set up His millennial kingdom for he will be the King over all the earth Zechariah 14:9.
They are two separate comings. Jerry Kelso
 
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David Kent

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davidkent,

1. The last day is an Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection that the Jews understood.
Hebrews 6:1-2: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.
These were Old Testament doctrines for Christ taught the law and had to fulfill the law Matthew 5:17-18; Galatians 4:4.
Those Jews were to not go back into Judaism because there was no salvation in Judaism. They were under pressure to fall away from the New Covenant.
V4 about impossible for those once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost etc. if they fall away they can’t be renewed to repentance again seeing they would crucify the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.
The late Greek scholar Kenneth Weiss said this could not happen today.

2. As far as the resurrection of the dead at the last day if you read Revelation, the 1st resurrection are all tribulation saints who will died who didn’t take the mark Revelation 20:4-6.
They are the same as those who sang the song of Moses and the lamb which implies they are New Covenant Jews in Revelation 15:1-2. They will be a part of those who go to Heaven Revelation 19:7-10 and come back with the saints and Christ who comes to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.
This is not the rapture where the saints that are alive and remain on the earth are raptured to the air to be with the Lord and the dead saints who Christ will bring with him from Heaven. We will go back to Heaven and stay through the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.

3. When Christ comes back at the 2nd advent he comes to take the kingdoms of the world Revelation 11:15 and set up His millennial kingdom for he will be the King over all the earth Zechariah 14:9.
They are two separate comings. Jerry Kelso

No there is only one coming. The Brethren tried to get round that by saying it is one coming in two parts, but that is false as well. If you lived 200 years ago you would never have believed all that as the teaching did not exist.

You know what Paul told Timothy about teachings in the lattter times 1 Timothy 4:1
 
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sovereigngrace

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davidkent,

1. The last day is an Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection that the Jews understood.
Hebrews 6:1-2: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.
These were Old Testament doctrines for Christ taught the law and had to fulfill the law Matthew 5:17-18; Galatians 4:4.
Those Jews were to not go back into Judaism because there was no salvation in Judaism. They were under pressure to fall away from the New Covenant.
V4 about impossible for those once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost etc. if they fall away they can’t be renewed to repentance again seeing they would crucify the son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.
The late Greek scholar Kenneth Weiss said this could not happen today.

2. As far as the resurrection of the dead at the last day if you read Revelation, the 1st resurrection are all tribulation saints who will died who didn’t take the mark Revelation 20:4-6.
They are the same as those who sang the song of Moses and the lamb which implies they are New Covenant Jews in Revelation 15:1-2. They will be a part of those who go to Heaven Revelation 19:7-10 and come back with the saints and Christ who comes to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.
This is not the rapture where the saints that are alive and remain on the earth are raptured to the air to be with the Lord and the dead saints who Christ will bring with him from Heaven. We will go back to Heaven and stay through the tribulation Reelation 4:1v; 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10.

3. When Christ comes back at the 2nd advent he comes to take the kingdoms of the world Revelation 11:15 and set up His millennial kingdom for he will be the King over all the earth Zechariah 14:9.
They are two separate comings. Jerry Kelso

Your references do not add up and support what you claim. For example: where is the rapture of the Church in Rev 4:1?
 
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jerry kelso

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No there is only one coming. The Brethren tried to get round that by saying it is one coming in two parts, but that is false as well. If you lived 200 years ago you would never have believed all that as the teaching did not exist.

You know what Paul told Timothy about teachings in the lattter times 1 Timothy 4:1

davidkent,

1. I would say that you are too concerned more with how the brethren explained than what the word says and the what I said with scriptural proof.
You have no rebuttal just disagreement.
And just because you disagree with a different point of view I am not going to say you are a false prophet.
If you give scriptures and context you might gain a little traction and a little weight on the matter. Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Your references do not add up and support what you claim. For example: where is the rapture of the Church in Rev 4:1?

sovereigngrace,

1. Revelation 4:1; John is taken up into Heaven through an actual portal in Heaven when the church age is through.
Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10 shows the church is in Heaven through the whole tribulation before they come out of Heaven with Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to do battle at Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. Revelation 4:1; John is taken up into Heaven through an actual portal in Heaven when the church age is through.
Revelation 5:9-10; 11:18; 19:7-10 shows the church is in Heaven through the whole tribulation before they come out of Heaven with Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to do battle at Armageddon Revelation 19:11-15. Jerry Kelso

Not so! There is no mention of the Church in Revelation 4:1!

The Church is found throughout Rev 4-19 in heaven and on earth. Please see:

The “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

Those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

The “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

Also, “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

Revelation 14:12-13 reinforces this, saying, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
 
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jerry kelso

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Not so! There is no mention of the Church in Revelation 4:1!

The Church is found throughout Rev 4-19 in heaven and on earth. Please see:

The “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

Those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

The “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

Also, “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

Revelation 14:12-13 reinforces this, saying, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

sovereigngrace,

1. The word church and churches is only mentioned in Revelation 1-3.
It was addressed historically to the 7 churches of Asia.
Revelation is a prophetic book too Revelation 1:3.
The main theme of the churches is overcoming tribulation by being faithful.
The prize is things that are connected to the Pre-Trib rapture such as receiving a crown of life Revelation 2:10; eating of the hidden man, giving a white stone and a stone with a new name written which no man knowers saving he that receives it.
The millennial kingdom like eating of the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God Revelation 2:7.
Power over the nations Revelation 2:26-27.
When the Holy City comes down Revelation 21:2, 10. after the making of the New Heaven and Earth after the millennial kingdom.
I have already explained Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10 which is right before the tribulation Revelation 6.

2. The saints, redeemed, my people, bridegroom and of the bride, they that do his commandments, faith, testimony, martyrs of Jesus, and the blessed dead in the tribulation on earth is not the church Revelation 6-19.
These are not the church on earth for the church is in Heaven Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; before the tribulation, in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:18 receiving rewards in Heaven, and in Heaven at the end of the tribulation Revelation 19:1-10 until they go with Christ out of Heaven down to earth to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.

3. The problem is the failure in your post to show proper context.
You give scripture with similar terms or what may sound like popular terms for the church today but no context to prove that.
This is most likely the reason or because of whatever your overall outline of the tribulation.

4. Salvation will still be available when the church is gone because the Holy Spirit will be here all the time to draw men to Christ including the tribulation John 14:16; Acts 2:16-21 with Joel 2:28-29 etc.
Revelation 6 has martyrs; Revelation 7 has the great multitude in Heaven during the whole tribulation and is part of the first resurrection which contain the tribulation martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7;,15-18; 15:2-4; 17:6; 20:4.
Revelation 7:1-8 are the 144,000 Jews that are preserved through the trumpet judgements and raptured as the manchild Revelation 12:5 to Heaven as the first fruits of the tribulation Revelation 14:1-5.

5. The nation of Israel is in greater focus focus in the 2nd half of the tribulation which is the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-10; Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21; Revelation 11:1-2, 12; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Malachi 4:5.

6. Revelation 18:23 is not about the church of God today or the tribulation saints. Read Jeremiah 7:34; 16:19; 25:10-11. There is a double fulfillment once in the nations past and again in the future literal Babylon.
The voice of the the bridegroom and bride in Literal Babylon is about the mighty angel’s judgement on this city.
Revelation 18:4 are the Jews told to come out of her (literal Babylon) which is not the church age saints.

7. The blessed dead of Revelation 14:13 is not the church saints, they are the tribulation saints.
The last company of tribulation saints Revelation 15:1-2 that don’t take the mark of the beast that are in the first resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb which are Jewish martyr’s. This is before the 7 vials which is on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2.
The church is not an earth participant in the tribulation and there is no earmarks of the church.
We are being trained right now for rulership training 2 Timothy 2:12.
Israel has to be purified and will be backslidden and have to have sins forgiven in order to fulfill their unconditional covenants 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Romans 9:25-29. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace,

1. The word church and churches is only mentioned in Revelation 1-3.
It was addressed historically to the 7 churches of Asia.
Revelation is a prophetic book too Revelation 1:3.
The main theme of the churches is overcoming tribulation by being faithful.
The prize is things that are connected to the Pre-Trib rapture such as receiving a crown of life Revelation 2:10; eating of the hidden man, giving a white stone and a stone with a new name written which no man knowers saving he that receives it.
The millennial kingdom like eating of the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of God Revelation 2:7.
Power over the nations Revelation 2:26-27.
When the Holy City comes down Revelation 21:2, 10. after the making of the New Heaven and Earth after the millennial kingdom.
I have already explained Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10 which is right before the tribulation Revelation 6.

2. The saints, redeemed, my people, bridegroom and of the bride, they that do his commandments, faith, testimony, martyrs of Jesus, and the blessed dead in the tribulation on earth is not the church Revelation 6-19.
These are not the church on earth for the church is in Heaven Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; before the tribulation, in the middle of the tribulation Revelation 11:18 receiving rewards in Heaven, and in Heaven at the end of the tribulation Revelation 19:1-10 until they go with Christ out of Heaven down to earth to the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-20.

3. The problem is the failure in your post to show proper context.
You give scripture with similar terms or what may sound like popular terms for the church today but no context to prove that.
This is most likely the reason or because of whatever your overall outline of the tribulation.

4. Salvation will still be available when the church is gone because the Holy Spirit will be here all the time to draw men to Christ including the tribulation John 14:16; Acts 2:16-21 with Joel 2:28-29 etc.
Revelation 6 has martyrs; Revelation 7 has the great multitude in Heaven during the whole tribulation and is part of the first resurrection which contain the tribulation martyrs Revelation 6:9-11; 13:7;,15-18; 15:2-4; 17:6; 20:4.
Revelation 7:1-8 are the 144,000 Jews that are preserved through the trumpet judgements and raptured as the manchild Revelation 12:5 to Heaven as the first fruits of the tribulation Revelation 14:1-5.

5. The nation of Israel is in greater focus focus in the 2nd half of the tribulation which is the time of Jacob’s trouble Jeremiah 30:7-10; Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21; Revelation 11:1-2, 12; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Malachi 4:5.

6. Revelation 18:23 is not about the church of God today or the tribulation saints. Read Jeremiah 7:34; 16:19; 25:10-11. There is a double fulfillment once in the nations past and again in the future literal Babylon.
The voice of the the bridegroom and bride in Literal Babylon is about the mighty angel’s judgement on this city.
Revelation 18:4 are the Jews told to come out of her (literal Babylon) which is not the church age saints.

7. The blessed dead of Revelation 14:13 is not the church saints, they are the tribulation saints.
The last company of tribulation saints Revelation 15:1-2 that don’t take the mark of the beast that are in the first resurrection Revelation 20:4-6.
They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb which are Jewish martyr’s. This is before the 7 vials which is on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:1-2.
The church is not an earth participant in the tribulation and there is no earmarks of the church.
We are being trained right now for rulership training 2 Timothy 2:12.
Israel has to be purified and will be backslidden and have to have sins forgiven in order to fulfill their unconditional covenants 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Romans 9:25-29. Jerry Kelso

You have totally ignored my previous post and simply reiterated the party line. The only problem is: the party line that you have bought into is nonsensical.

Let me give you one example, among countless. Pretribs argue that because the word “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) is not mentioned anywhere between Revelation chapter 4 and 19 proves that the “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) cannot be around during that particular period. The only problem with that argument is the word “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) is not mentioned anywhere between Revelation chapter 1 and 4 so that equally must prove that the “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) cannot be around during that particular period also.

When we examine the Holy Spirit’s use of the word church (or churches) in “the first three chapters” of Revelation, we see that every single mention refers to a local gathering of the visible church in Asia Minor, not the invisible universal redeemed body of believers that Gromacki is actually talking about. These references come to seventeen in total and are found in Revelation 1: 4, 11, 20; 2:1, 7, 11, 12, 17, 18, 23, 29; 3:1, 6, 7, 13, 14, 22.

So, there is not one reference to “the true Church” as a spiritual organism prior to Revelation 4:1. This totally negates the whole Pretrib argument.

Let us be very clear, just because someone belongs to a local church means nothing. Salvation is not secured by attending a local church. God’s favour is not automatically on a local church; it isn’t now and it wasn’t then, and it won’t at the end. We just have to look at some of the things he said to those churches in question.

The church of Ephesus had left its first love (Revelation 2:4). The church in Pergamos was being destroyed with the “doctrine of Balaam” (Revelation 2:14) and the “doctrine of the Nicolaitans” (Revelation 2:15). The church in Thyatira was being seduced by a Jezebel spirit (Revelation 2:20). The church of the Laodiceans was lukewarm and Christ was about to spew it out of His mouth.

Surely no Prettribber would consider these mere church attendees “true believers” on the grounds of their (local) church attendance. Not one reference in Revelation chapters 1-3 therefore refers to “the true Church” that the Pretribbers argue is non-existent during their 7 years tribulation between Revelation 4:1 and Revelation 19. They all relate to dysfunctional local assemblies. So if there is any consistency in the Pretib argument they would have to concede that there is not one reference to “the true church” in the whole book of Revelation.

Pretribber make an incredible shout about the existence of the word church between Revelation 1 and 3 and the absence of the word church between Revelation 4-19 without (1) ever remotely acknowledging the distinction between the invisible universal Church and visible local church, and (2) failing to concede that the Church, as the global embodiment of the blood-bought elect of God is never once referred to in the whole of Revelation. Their forced distinction between chapter's 2-3 and 4-19 is therefore completely null and void.
 
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jerry kelso

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Pretribs argue that because the word “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) is not mentioned anywhere between Revelation chapter 4 and 19 proves that the “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) cannot be around during that particular period. The only problem with that argument is the word “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) is not mentioned anywhere between Revelation chapter 1 and 4 so that equally must prove that the “Church” (those that are redeemed by the blood of Jesus) cannot be around during that particular period also.

When we examine the Holy Spirit’s use of the word church (or churches) in “the first three chapters” of Revelation, we see that every single mention refers to a local gathering of the visible church in Asia Minor, not the invisible universal redeemed body of believers that Gromacki is actually talking about. These references come to seventeen in total and are found in Revelation 1: 4, 11, 20; 2:1, 7, 11, 12, 17, 18, 23, 29; 3:1, 6, 7, 13, 14, 22.

So, there is not one reference to “the true Church” as a spiritual organism prior to Revelation 4:1. This totally negates the whole Pretrib argument.

Let us be very clear, just because someone belongs to a local church means nothing. Salvation is not secured by attending a local church. God’s favour is not automatically on a local church; it isn’t now and it wasn’t then, and it won’t at the end. We just have to look at some of the things he said to those churches in question.

The church of Ephesus had left its first love (Revelation 2:4). The church in Pergamos was being destroyed with the “doctrine of Balaam” (Revelation 2:14) and the “doctrine of the Nicolaitans” (Revelation 2:15). The church in Thyatira was being seduced by a Jezebel spirit (Revelation 2:20). The church of the Laodiceans was lukewarm and Christ was about to spew it out of His mouth.

Surely no Prettribber would consider these mere church attendees “true believers” on the grounds of their (local) church attendance. Not one reference in Revelation chapters 1-3 therefore refers to “the true Church” that the Pretribbers argue is non-existent during their 7 years tribulation between Revelation 4:1 and Revelation 19. They all relate to dysfunctional local assemblies. So if there is any consistency in the Pretib argument they would have to concede that there is not one reference to “the true church” in the whole book of Revelation.

Pretribber make an incredible shout about the existence of the word church between Revelation 1 and 3 and the absence of the word church between Revelation 4-19 without (1) ever remotely acknowledging the distinction between the invisible universal Church and visible local church, and (2) failing to concede that the Church, as the global embodiment of the blood-bought elect of God is never once referred to in the whole of Revelation. Their forced distinction between chapter's 2-3 and 4-19 is therefore completely null and void.

sovereigngrace,

1. You must have missed about the church does not be purified but Israel does and there are no earmarks of the church because it is about the restoration of Israel 2 Samuel 7:13-16 and 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Matthew 23:39; 24:13-31 and creation Romans 8:22; Joel 2; Isaiah 2, 13, 9:6-7 etc.

2. The Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus taught to Israel Matthew 4:17 and they rejected Matthew 23:37-39 is the message of the end times Matthew 24:13, not the church of today.

3. Revelation 1:3 says this book is a prophecy. Revelation 1:19 John is told to write the things which he had seen which was the vision 1:12-18. The present things were the churches 2-3.
The things after the churches was 4:1 when John was taken to Heaven and everything afterwards to Revelation 22.
Also, it is not about the church after the 7 of Asia Minor being replicated in every jot and tittle but the conditions are prevalent in each age. There are churches today, even Pentecostal that are supporting conditions of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans Revelation 2:15 and other forms of sexual tones and losing their first love and being lukewarm etc.
If it was just for the historical churches it would not be a prophecy.

4. The church is a spiritual organism concerning the true church but we do have literal church buildings of all kinds that we worship in together. The Bible says we are not forsake the assembling of the church or meeting together which would be a physical meeting place somewhere whether in a house or a church building. So that argument don’t stand.
Besides we are to have sinners in our churches when we meet and witness to them and the professing church has many who are not consecrated to Christ or perfect.
Paul didn’t have perfect church attendees either.
The true church will be raptured to Heaven and will be in the millennial kingdom. But even in the millennial kingdom sinners will still be present for Christ has to put down sin and rebellion 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

5. Yes Jews and Gentiles make up the church today Ephesians 2:14-15. But you cannot substantiate that argument or reconcile that with the other scriptures on the rapture of the church.
and plan of God for the heavenly calling of the church 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9-10 before the tribulation and the earthly calling of Israel 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Daniel 9:24; Romans 11:25-29.

6. There is no coercion in Revelation 2-3-19.
There is wrong scriptural reasoning in your position in your post or at least what has been described. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. You must have missed about the church does not be purified but Israel does and there are no earmarks of the church because it is about the restoration of Israel 2 Samuel 7:13-16 and 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Ezekiel 37:16-28; Zechariah 14; Matthew 23:39; 24:13-31 and creation Romans 8:22; Joel 2; Isaiah 2, 13, 9:6-7 etc.

2. The Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus taught to Israel Matthew 4:17 and they rejected Matthew 23:37-39 is the message of the end times Matthew 24:13, not the church of today.

3. Revelation 1:3 says this book is a prophecy. Revelation 1:19 John is told to write the things which he had seen which was the vision 1:12-18. The present things were the churches 2-3.
The things after the churches was 4:1 when John was taken to Heaven and everything afterwards to Revelation 22.
Also, it is not about the church after the 7 of Asia Minor being replicated in every jot and tittle but the conditions are prevalent in each age. There are churches today, even Pentecostal that are supporting conditions of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans Revelation 2:15 and other forms of sexual tones and losing their first love and being lukewarm etc.
If it was just for the historical churches it would not be a prophecy.

4. The church is a spiritual organism concerning the true church but we do have literal church buildings of all kinds that we worship in together. The Bible says we are not forsake the assembling of the church or meeting together which would be a physical meeting place somewhere whether in a house or a church building. So that argument don’t stand.
Besides we are to have sinners in our churches when we meet and witness to them and the professing church has many who are not consecrated to Christ or perfect.
Paul didn’t have perfect church attendees either.
The true church will be raptured to Heaven and will be in the millennial kingdom. But even in the millennial kingdom sinners will still be present for Christ has to put down sin and rebellion 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

5. Yes Jews and Gentiles make up the church today Ephesians 2:14-15. But you cannot substantiate that argument or reconcile that with the other scriptures on the rapture of the church.
and plan of God for the heavenly calling of the church 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9-10 before the tribulation and the earthly calling of Israel 2 Samuel 7:13-16; 1 Chronicles 28:1-7; Daniel 9:24; Romans 11:25-29.

6. There is no coercion in Revelation 2-3-19.
There is wrong scriptural reasoning in your position in your post or at least what has been described. Jerry Kelso

You are totally ignoring my post and posting the party line. Please address my last post. There is no mention of "the Church" - the redeemed body of Christ anywhere as a collective whole by actual name as "the Church." All we have are mentions of local churches - that include saved and unsaved.
 
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jerry kelso

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You are totally ignoring my post and posting the party line. Please address my last post. There is no mention of "the Church" - the redeemed body of Christ anywhere as a collective whole by actual name as "the Church." All we have are mentions of local churches - that include saved and unsaved.

sovereigngrace,

1. I did address that and agreed with you that there were local churches only mentioned in Revelation 2-3.
I also mentioned that those in the true church are a spiritual organism which we both agree on.
I also said the true church today go to local assemblies just like the historical 7 and the early church whether a house or some other type of building.
You seem to disagree.
I said in the millennial kingdom their will be the true church which will be a full theocracy with Christ literally reigning with the saints from Adam’s day to Revelation 4:1 rapture of the church to the 1st resurrection of tribulation saints who didn’t take the mark of the beast Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6 and their will be sinners in the kingdom at the same time till the 1000 years will be over Revelation 20:9.

2. The tares and wheat grow together but the church will Be raptured.

3. Those local churches were true churches that John ministered to and may have started but the point is they were true believers as a whole but Ephesus backslid to the point of losing their first love. Many churches have done this and are no longer around.
There were saved and unsaved in Asia Minor and all churches of Paul were too, and today too.
So I don’t get you think I ignored you.
I did address it and rebutted it.
Can you give a fair rebuttal according to what I said and what scriptures I gave to back it up?
You haven’t so far that I haven’t seen so give me your best argument. Jerry Kelso
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace,

1. I did address that and agreed with you that there were local churches only mentioned in Revelation 2-3.
I also mentioned that those in the true church are a spiritual organism which we both agree on.
I also said the true church today go to local assemblies just like the historical 7 and the early church whether a house or some other type of building.
You seem to disagree.
I said in the millennial kingdom their will be the true church which will be a full theocracy with Christ literally reigning with the saints from Adam’s day to Revelation 4:1 rapture of the church to the 1st resurrection of tribulation saints who didn’t take the mark of the beast Revelation 15:1-2;20:4-6 and their will be sinners in the kingdom at the same time till the 1000 years will be over Revelation 20:9.

2. The tares and wheat grow together but the church will Be raptured.

3. Those local churches were true churches that John ministered to and may have started but the point is they were true believers as a whole but Ephesus backslid to the point of losing their first love. Many churches have done this and are no longer around.
There were saved and unsaved in Asia Minor and all churches of Paul were too, and today too.
So I don’t get you think I ignored you.
I did address it and rebutted it.
Can you give a fair rebuttal according to what I said and what scriptures I gave to back it up?
You haven’t so far that I haven’t seen so give me your best argument. Jerry Kelso

Thanks for your response. Let me ask you an important simple basic question:

Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

You CANNOT even show any mention of the Church being raptured in Revelation 4-6. I have showed you, the Church is found on earth (and in heaven) throughout Revelation 4-19. Here is the evidence again:

The Church throughout the Word is shown to be made up of the “saints” (Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9), the “redeemed” (Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4), “them which are saved” (Revelation 21:24), the “brethren” (Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9), the “chosen (or elect), and faithful” (Revelation 17:4), “servants” of God (Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as those that possess the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is the “woman” (Revelation 12:1,4, 6, 13, 15, 16 and 17), “the bride” of Christ (Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17), “the Lamb's wife” (Revelation 19:7 and 21:9), “the temple” (Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

They are those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14), and are now “kings and priests” (Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6), they are the “souls” in heaven (Revelation 6:9 and 20:4), the “fellowservants” (Revelation 6:11). God calls them as “my people” (Revelation 18:4) and “his people” (Revelation 21:3).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church relates to those “that overcometh” (Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7), and “that watcheth, and keepeth their garments” (Revelation 16:15), “they that do/keep God’s commandments” (Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14), and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” (Revelation 21:27).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

The Church is described as “the dead which die in the Lord” (Revelation 14:13), as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark” (Revelation 15:2), “much people in heaven” (Revelation 19:1), who are “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Revelation 7:9), and are “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Revelation 5:9), and are “the armies which were in heaven” (Revelation 19:14).

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

Please see #594.

A 7-year-trib after the coming of Christ has no support anywhere in Scripture (including Daniel 9, 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 4). The burden of proof is with you! The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove!"
 
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