Question for rapture people

ewq1938 said:

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No scripture also calls Eden or the garden in the east part of Eden "paradise" either.

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Scripture
Rev 2:7

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Paradise means garden. " The Greek word used for garden is translated as paradise in English."

ewq1938 said:

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Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

The cool of the day is in the evening when the sun is setting. Location is the Earth.

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The sun sets on Mount Eden in the third heaven, also.
It is a realm of the outstretched heavens that Adam was taken to and where he would rule earth from, as the first, "firstborn human being son of God". He lost the glory, lost the position of firstborn son of God of the human being kind, and by that, is dead in spirit, and cannot bear sons of God to "plant the heavens" and "build up the heavenly Zion's glory" as the temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell, by having "living to God" sons . We lost it all in the fall.

Malachi 3:15 states He made the male and female one, having a remnant of the spirit, because He sought godly seed, which means "sons of God".
Adam was "son of God" -Luke 3:38, but not since the fall, and we are dead in Adam and must be born again, adopted into the One New Man living Spirit, which is Christ to be part of the restored kingdom of God and "plant the heavens", which is the purpose He created us for, to be living stones in His Temple not made with hands [human being sons filled with the Glory of God]....
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Because Jesus paid the ransom price by His blood for our soul to be made clean, and adopts us into His One Living Spirit, then we have a Father who is "firstborn son of God of the human being kind", and the kingdom is going to be fully restored and God's plan for this creation will go forth in the New Man name.

There is a throne on Mount Zion of the third heaven that is prepared for the Son of Man to rule over the kingdom from, and Adam lost the opportunity to reach his destiny in his fall, but the New Man has bought every seed of Adam back [whosoever will], by His Kinsman/Redeemer blood of Atonement, and has ransomed the earth and will take His authority and sit on that throne as Firstborn, and will be our own "everlasting Father" by the adoption and He promises to share His ransomed throne with us, and we will reign with Him, forever, from where our first father, the Adam, would have, if he had not sold us into slavery to corruption and death.

The Adam was taken to the Garden/Paradise of God, and at the fall, was literally cast down, positionally, from the third heaven, to the earth below.
Before that, he could come and go, for they were united, but the Cherubim with flaming swords barred the way.

Nimrod & CO later tried to climb up by another way than the closed entry door/gate, and built a tower with the plan of taking over up there, but after building for 40 years, his tower was destroyed, his city destroyed that he was building, and the 70 tribes one mother tongue (proto Hebrew) was confounded/mixed up, into the 70 tongues -which have grown like branches on a tree into over 6,000 from the Hebrew mother tongue.

After the fall of the tower, Noah's sons' tribes began to scatter over the earth, divided by tongues, as the land mass was also being divided into the different continents from the one land mass of creation week, and their years of their lives were "cut short", so as to make it harder, by shorter lives, to be united against God's plan for salvation for the lost Adam race...

ewq1938 said:

...Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

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God has animals in the Garden also, but the entire curse is not a snake losing legs, but Satan received the authority to curse by corruption all flesh of all creation on earth, and Death and Corruption feed Sheol, in the belly of the earth, and Destruction is one of the Satan's who is the king of Sheol/Hell, in the belly of the earth. In Greek, He is called Apollyon, but in Hebrew, He is Abbadon, king of the belly of the earth, where Sheol is.
There is a kingdom of darkness that Adam sold his kingdom to, by his disobedience to God. The Prince of Darkness got legal authority over all flesh, to curse it.
The Hebrew of that passage is clear.
The promise of the Seed/Christ was made in the same passage, and He who was to come in flesh to undo the curse by ransoming the kingdom back for Himself to rule and reign over, by His once for all Atonement, and who is "Seed" of the Woman [Jerusalem above is that Woman, spiritually] has come, and has ransomed back the kingdom, but He has not yet taken His power unto Himself and reigned. He does that at the beginning of the Millennial Sabbath reign.
So the curse was pronounced by God over all flesh, and the Creator gave Satan the authority to "eat the flesh/dust" of all creatures, and to hold souls captive in Sheol below, until the time appointed.

He took , to heaven, all the righteous and innocent souls [the souls of those who die before coming to understand good and evil and choosing to do evil]
from that death of separation from the Father,
out of that prison house at His resurrection,
and to heaven,
to wait with Him there for the resurrection and regeneration of their human flesh bodies.
The rest of the souls held captive by Death in Sheol will be resurrected to their final judgment at the end of the millennial reign, when Sheol and Death will be cast into the Lake of Fire and no more will the belly of the earth hold captive souls.

keras said:

I find it hard to credit, that intelligent people are discussing scenarios of impossible things, as though they will actually take place.

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You mean like many of the anti nicene Christian writers?

Well, Keras, like I stated, the early church writers would say different than you.

For instance, Justin Marytr, a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John, was probably the most vocal about it (probably a reason he was killed). He claimed that 1) Israel being restored to the land prior to the Trbulation period, 2) that a temple would be rebuilt, 3) that the righteous would be removed prior to the that tribulation coming upon the earth, 4) the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom with the righteous who were gathered to Messiah ruling with Him, that whoever taught anything which deviated from those fall into two classes... 1) immature Christians or 2) Heretics.

Given the man’s street cred in the early church, his linkage direct to the apostolic authority, etc, I tend to take his word on the matter just a wee bit more than someone who comes along 19 centuries later claiming an alternative revelation on the scripture.

Copperhead said:

Well, Keras, like I stated, the early church writers would say different than you.

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Firstly you will never prove your case without scriptures that plainly state a 'rapture'.
Secondly; the ECF's never plainly state that the Lord will rapture His people, I don't see that idea anywhere in the dialogue below.
J.M. makes it clear the we Christians are the Israel of God, a truth that blows the 'rapture theory apart.

Dialogue of Justin Martyr:
"As, therefore, all these latter prophecies refer to Christ and the nations, you should believe that the former refer to Him and them in like manner. For the proselytes have no need of a covenant, if, since there is one and the same law imposed on all that are circumcised, the Scripture speaks about them thus: And the stranger shall also be joined with them, and shall be joined to the house of Jacob. Isaiah 14:1, Isaiah 56:1-8

And because the proselyte, who is circumcised that he may have access to the people, becomes like one of themselves, as Jews, while we who have been deemed worthy to be called a people, Christians, are yet Gentiles, because we have not been circumcised. Besides, it is ridiculous for you to imagine that the eyes of the proselytes are to be opened while your own are not, and that you be understood as blind and deaf while they are enlightened. And it will be still more ridiculous for you, if you say that the law has been given to the nations, but you have not known it. For you would have stood in awe of God's wrath, and would not have been lawless, wandering sons; being much afraid of hearing God always say, Children in whom is no faith. And who are blind, but my servants? and deaf, but they that rule over them? And the servants of God have been made blind. You see often, but have not observed; your ears have been opened, and you have not heard. Isaiah 42:19

Is God's commendation of you honourable? and is God's testimony seemly for His servants? You are not ashamed though you often hear these words. You do not tremble at God's threats, for you are a people foolish and hard-hearted. Therefore, behold, I will proceed to remove [throw out] this people,' saith the Lord; and I will shock them, and destroy the wisdom of the wise, and hide the understanding of the prudent. Isaiah 29:14

Deservedly too: for you are neither wise nor prudent, but crafty and unscrupulous; wise only to do evil, but utterly incompetent to know the hidden counsel of God, or the faithful covenant of the Lord, or to find out the everlasting paths. Therefore, saith the Lord, I will raise up to Israel and to Judah the seed of men and the seed of beasts. Jeremiah 31:27

And by Isaiah He speaks thus concerning another Israel: In that day shall there be a third Israel among the Assyrians and the Egyptians, blessed in the land which the Lord of Sabaoth hath blessed, saying, blessed shall my people in Egypt and in Assyria be, and Israel mine inheritance. Isaiah 19:24

Since then God blesses this people, and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you Jews alone were the Israel, and of execrating the people whom God has blessed? For when He speaks to Jerusalem and its environs, He thus added: And I will beget men upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall inherit you, and you shall be a possession for them; and you shall be no longer bereaved of them. Ezekiel 36:12

"What, then?" says Trypho; "are you Israel? and speaks He such things of you?"

"If, indeed," I replied to him, "we had not entered into a lengthy discussion on these topics, I might have doubted whether you ask this question in ignorance; but since we have brought the matter to a conclusion by demonstration and with your assent, I do not believe that you are ignorant of what I have just said, or desire again mere contention, but that you are urging me to exhibit the same proof to these men." And in compliance with the assent expressed in his eyes, I continued: "Again in Isaiah, if you have ears to hear it, God, speaking of Christ in parable, calls Him Jacob and Israel. He speaks thus: Behold My servant, I will uphold Him; Israel is mine elect, I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any one hear His voice in the street: a bruised reed He shall not break, and smoking flax He shall not quench; but He shall bring forth judgment to truth: He shall shine, and shall not be broken till He have set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust. Isaiah 42:1-4

As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ."

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) said:

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

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Rapture as a definitive biblical doctrine does not exist; however, I believe it is an event that is completely misunderstood in its timing, its significance, and its participants.

I’d started studying it more than 20 years ago for the purpose of writing a book that would prevent anyone trying to refute even the most insignificant proof. I realized as I began asking questions that someone might ask in an attempt to “unravel” the scriptural evidence that it had no biblical support as a doctrine.

I have realized that that in order for the judgement to happen before the throne of God -in Heaven- that He would have to remove everyone off the earth to get them there. The OT, in Daniel, refers to a mass resurrections of good and bad simultaneouslyto be judged, which fits the Hebrew/Jewish belief that there would be a resurrection on the “last day.”

Revelation also refers to the removal of two groups of people, one right after the other, in chapter 14, to be judged. There are numerous references to everyone being judged together, (sheep/goats, good fish/bad fish, wheat/tares, etc.) In Revelation 20, these groups are all brought to God for judgement and then it is said the earth was destroyed.

To provide further understanding of “rapture,” it is also used a dozen times in the NT to describe grabbing someone, stealing someone’s possessions, and people being moved from one place to another. It’s just a word.

Non-profit Prophet said:

Rapture as a definitive biblical doctrine does not exist; however, I believe it is an event that is completely misunderstood in its timing, its significance, and its participants.

I’d started studying it more than 20 years ago for the purpose of writing a book that would prevent anyone trying to refute even the most insignificant proof. I realized as I began asking questions that someone might ask in an attempt to “unravel” the scriptural evidence that it had no biblical support as a doctrine.

I have realized that that in order for the judgement to happen before the throne of God -in Heaven- that He would have to remove everyone off the earth to get them there. The OT, in Daniel, refers to a mass resurrections of good and bad simultaneouslyto be judged, which fits the Hebrew/Jewish belief that there would be a resurrection on the “last day.”

Revelation also refers to the removal of two groups of people, one right after the other, in chapter 14, to be judged. There are numerous references to everyone being judged together, (sheep/goats, good fish/bad fish, wheat/tares, etc.) In Revelation 20, these groups are all brought to God for judgement and then it is said the earth was destroyed.

To provide further understanding of “rapture,” it is also used a dozen times in the NT to describe grabbing someone, stealing someone’s possessions, and people being moved from one place to another. It’s just a word.

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Why is it SO DIFFICULT for some to believe the simple words of God written by Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5?

OF COURSE there will be a rapture! We are going to be caught up into the sky to be with Jesus and "so shall we ever be with the Lord," of "be together with Him." If we believe Paul, we know it is going to happen just before the Day of the Lord or the time of God's wrath begins.

In Revelation, IF we believe John, God's wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Why is this so difficult for some to believe? It is in the same book as John 3:16.

iamlamad said:

Why is it SO DIFFICULT for some to believe the simple words of God written by Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5?

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What we do not believe is that this 'harparzo' is a removal to heaven.
None of the scriptures that 'rapture' exponents present say the Church goes to heaven. Many scriptures say that we must endure until the end.

keras said:

What we do not believe is that this 'harparzo' is a removal to heaven.
None of the scriptures that 'rapture' exponents present say the Church goes to heaven. Many scriptures say that we must endure until the end.

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There are three distinct groups of people that God speaks of in end times scriptures: The Church, the Jews, (Israel) and the nations (the lost.) The very reason there is SO MUCH disagreement on end times is the simple fact that people MIX UP the scriptures for the different groups.

A classic example is people assuming that the gathering in the Olivet Discourse is Paul's rapture. It is not. That gathering (Matthew 24) is about the Jews and Hebrews being gathered back to Israel just as God promised them.
The scriptures about "enduring to the end" is for the JEWs during the 70th week. The church is not going to be here during that time - since the rapture is pre - 70th week.

Paul tells us that we will be where Jesus will be after we are caught up. Almost no one imagines Christ on earth for the 70th week. Indeed, He does not return to battle until the week has ended. WHERE then will Christ be during the 70th week? Of course in heaven. This is proven by the scriptures about the marriage and supper.

iamlamad said:

There are three distinct groups of people that God speaks of in end times scriptures: The Church, the Jews, (Israel) and the nations (the lost.) The very reason there is SO MUCH disagreement on end times is the simple fact that people MIX UP the scriptures for the different groups.

A classic example is people assuming that the gathering in the Olivet Discourse is Paul's rapture. It is not. That gathering (Matthew 24) is about the Jews and Hebrews being gathered back to Israel just as God promised them.
The scriptures about "enduring to the end" is for the JEWs during the 70th week. The church is not going to be here during that time - since the rapture is pre - 70th week.

Paul tells us that we will be where Jesus will be after we are caught up. Almost no one imagines Christ on earth for the 70th week. Indeed, He does not return to battle until the week has ended. WHERE then will Christ be during the 70th week? Of course in heaven. This is proven by the scriptures about the marriage and supper.

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Firstly; there is only two types of people- Those who believe in God and accept Jesus. And all the rest.
Ethnicity is of no consequence, Ephesians 2:11-18 makes that clear.

Then you totally fail to see the many prophesies that tell about the forthcoming punishment of the Jewish State of Israel. Only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

I still await an actual scripture to prove your fanciful idea of the Church going to heaven.
We see God's holy people on earth, in the holy Land at the mid point of the final seven years. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
They are not recent converts or Jews. They are all the Christian peoples, divided into 2 groups, as Revelation 12:6-17 and Daniel 11:32 tell us. They will be gathered to Jesus when He Returns. Matthew 24:30-31

keras said:

Firstly; there is only two types of people- Those who believe in God and accept Jesus. And all the rest.
Ethnicity is of no consequence, Ephesians 2:11-18 makes that clear.

Then you totally fail to see the many prophesies that tell about the forthcoming punishment of the Jewish State of Israel. Only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +

I still await an actual scripture to prove your fanciful idea of the Church going to heaven.
We see God's holy people on earth, in the holy Land at the mid point of the final seven years. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
They are not recent converts or Jews. They are all the Christian peoples, divided into 2 groups, as Revelation 12:6-17 and Daniel 11:32 tell us. They will be gathered to Jesus when He Returns. Matthew 24:30-31

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You have given a perfect example of what I wrote.

Rev. 13:7 speaks of "Saints." But WHO are they? It has to be either Jews (Hebrews) or the remnant of the church (Rev. 12). It CANNOT be "the church" for Paul is clear that the rapture of the church comes before the week begins.

You miss it yet again in Rev. 12.
Verses 6-9 is the war in heaven. It will begin right at the midpoint of the 70th week. (The church will be gone and be with Jesus by this for for 3.5 years.)

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

WHO is the "they?" It cannot be the church, for they were caught up 3.5 years previous to this time. It can ONLY be the remnant (those left behind at the rapture) and new converts who have turned to Christ after the week begins. Added to the remnant - those that have turned to Jesus - there will be Jews that love God and have faith in Him. They will be part of the 1/3 that makes it through the week.

What you miss: TIMING is everything in understanding the end times. WHEN will Paul's catching up be? He is clear that it comes JUST before wrath begins.
Most people have no idea where the 70th week is in Revelation. Yet, God has marked it with 7's: it begins at the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial.

When one knows where the catching up is in relation to where the 70th week is in Revelation, it is then easy to know that the catching up is PRETRIB. (It will be a moment before the start of God's wrath which begins at the 6th seal.)

WHERE IS JESUS during Revelation chapter 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16? It should be obvious that He remains in heaven for the entire week. And where then is the church? Of course WITH CHRIST in heaven. This is proven yet again in Rev. 19 where we find the church already in heaven for the marriage and supper.

I understand that many people try to rewrite Revelation to fit their theory. What I have written comes right out of the pages of Revelation as written. No changes or rearranging needed.

iamlamad said:

Rev. 13:7 speaks of "Saints." But WHO are they? It has to be either Jews (Hebrews) or the remnant of the church (Rev. 12). It CANNOT be "the church" for Paul is clear that the rapture of the church comes before the week begins.

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Revelation 13{7 says: Gods holy people...... REBible
The KJV does say 'saints', but either way it refers to the ONE people of God. His faithful Christians.
Paul is NOT clear about a pre-trib 'rapture' at all. He says no such thing. Even 1 Thess 4:17, is not pre-trib; just the gathering to Him, as Matthew 24:31 tells us.

Your belief of going to live in heaven, is far beyond the realms of fantasy and is a total contradiction of all the scriptures about how we must stand firm thru all that will happen.

keras said:

Revelation 13{7 says: Gods holy people...... REBible
The KJV does say 'saints', but either way it refers to the ONE people of God. His faithful Christians.
Paul is NOT clear about a pre-trib 'rapture' at all. He says no such thing. Even 1 Thess 4:17, is not pre-trib; just the gathering to Him, as Matthew 24:31 tells us.

Your belief of going to live in heaven, is far beyond the realms of fantasy and is a total contradiction of all the scriptures about how we must stand firm thru all that will happen.

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Sorry, but TIME and promises by God will create THREE people of God.
1. The CHURCH - removed before the 70th week.
2. Those that were left behind that turn to Jesus AFTER the rapture of the church.
3. Jews and Hebrews that truly trust God. Some of them will survive the 70th week and be alive and well to repopulate the earth.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but TIME and promises by God will create THREE people of God.
1. The CHURCH - removed before the 70th week.
2. Those that were left behind that turn to Jesus AFTER the rapture of the church.
3. Jews and Hebrews that truly trust God. Some of them will survive the 70th week and be alive and well to repopulate the earth.

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Sorry for you!
1/ No scripture says the Church will be removed to heaven. Into the holy Land; yes. Romans 9:24-26
2/ Left behind? This requires a Judgment; when is that? Revelation 20:11-15
3/ Define a true Jew and Hebrew. Romans 2:29

Acts 13:40-41 Beware then, lest you bring down upon yourselves the doom proclaimed by the prophets. Look, you who fail to grasp the truth, be surprised and perish. I am doing a work in your days, something that you will not believe, even though it has been pointed out to you.

iamlamad said:

Why is it SO DIFFICULT for some to believe the simple words of God written by Paul in 1 Thes. 4 & 5?

OF COURSE there will be a rapture! We are going to be caught up into the sky to be with Jesus and "so shall we ever be with the Lord," of "be together with Him." If we believe Paul, we know it is going to happen just before the Day of the Lord or the time of God's wrath begins.

In Revelation, IF we believe John, God's wrath begins at the 6th seal.

Why is this so difficult for some to believe? It is in the same book as John 3:16.

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I didn’t say there wouldn’t be a rapture; I explained that it has been misunderstood and taught incorrectly.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) said:

Still waiting. It just seems that if God cared enough to describe even the most minute details of Jesus' life even to points where it would to most seem insignificant then I would think that a huge event like the rapture would be prophesied in the OT too and we would have clear details of that as well .

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If someone were to show you an OT prophecy that indicates the rapture will happen, would you even believe it? It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind and are not willing to listen to anyone.

If the rapture doesn’t happen, then we’re all doomed to remain on earth when God destroys it.... or don’t you believe that part of scripture either?

I agree that it’s not a “doctrine,” nor should it be taught as one, but scripture does indicate that we will leave this earth dead or alive, and the only way that can happen is if we are “taken away.” That’s really all rapture is about, getting us off this planet before it’s consumed by fire.

Non-profit Prophet said:

If someone were to show you an OT prophecy that indicates the rapture will happen, would you even believe it? It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind and are not willing to listen to anyone.

If the rapture doesn’t happen, then we’re all doomed to remain on earth when God destroys it.... or don’t you believe that part of scripture either?

I agree that it’s not a “doctrine,” nor should it be taught as one, but scripture does indicate that we will leave this earth dead or alive, and the only way that can happen is if we are “taken away.” That’s really all rapture is about, getting us off this planet before it’s consumed by fire.

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For a start the earth will not be consumed by fire. Only after the Millennium, will the new Earth and new Heavens come to pass. Revelation 21:1-7
The Lord's Day of fiery wrath will destroy His enemies, but we who stand firm in our faith, will be protected. Isaiah 43:2, Acts 2:21, +

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that fanciful idea is never said to happen anywhere in the Bible.

keras said:

For a start the earth will not be consumed by fire. Only after the Millennium, will the new Earth and new Heavens come to pass. Revelation 21:1-7
The Lord's Day of fiery wrath will destroy His enemies, but we who stand firm in our faith, will be protected. Isaiah 43:2, Acts 2:21, +

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that fanciful idea is never said to happen anywhere in the Bible.

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“...after the millennium...” “...new Earth and new Heavens...” What happens to the people on earth at that time? Does the scripture teach that God transforms the earth beneath the feet of those living on earth at that time?! According to your “fanciful idea” theory, everyone living on earth will either be destroyed with this old earth or the new earth is just the old earth with a face-lift.

Which of these does the Bible teach?