Jesus and his family

Doubting Brutus said:

My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents.

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Experience teaches us things work the opposite way.

You could be for example an expert in something, proven, lauded by many that have seen your work, and your family will discount all of that profoundly, and see you as just-maybe-ok, but fallible (that part they get right) -- and think they can outdo you in that very thing you are thought by others to do well at....

That's just human nature at work there.

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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God the Father has to "tell you".
Mark 16:15 “But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

In John 6:64-65 we also read God has to grant you the ability to come to Christ.

. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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OF course. Jesus' family, although they KNEW that His birth was miraculous, DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE what He was really all about, What His ministry was, or that it was the plan From before the creation that Jesus would BE the ultimate SIN OFFERING (Isa 53) that cleansed people from their sin, which their Temple Sacrifice could NEVER do.

The popular conception of "Messiah" was a "military type leader" who would sweep in, drive out the hated Roman occupation, and restore Israel to it's former glory. Jesus, of course, had no intention of doing anything like that. His Agenda was infinitely higher than simple "political deliverance".

Even the Apostles/Disciples were clueless - until after the Resurrection when Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit to indwell 'em and opened the Scriptures (John 20:22 - Luke 24:45).

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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It's clear from the gospel story that Mary would certainly have understood who Jesus was, and did. It was Mary who said at the wedding "do what he says". Joseph disappears rather early in the story and tradition has that he died early in Jesus's life and not much else is said about him.

That his family said to a mob that he was out of his mind doesn't do much to answer the question. Did they believe he was insane or did they say that to protect him from the crowd? It's more likely they said it simply to protect him.

We know that James became the leader of the church in Jerusalem, but not much more about the rest of his family. In the end, Mary supported Jesus, Joseph died early on, and James became a believer. I'm sure that other members of his family would have as well.

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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Basically, I think that what was revealed to Mary and Joseph about Jesus was not comprehensive in nature, so much like today where we're all standing around wondering what it all more fully means. More than likely, Mary and Joseph only knew that their son would be 'great' in the sight of God.

What's interesting is that the Magnificat as Luke narrates it is modeled upon Hannah's prayer when she had her son, Samuel (the O.T. prophet).

I surmise that Mary and Joseph may have thought Jesus was meant to be a kind of prophet but didn't understand fully that He would also be the Son of God.

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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In the Gospel narrative it isn't Jesus' mother who doubts Him, but His siblings. It's worth noting that traditionally Jesus' siblings have been understood to either be the children of Joseph from a previous marriage (this is the oldest position of the Church, and still the dominant view in the Eastern Churches), or possibly cousins (this is the view proposed by St. Jerome, and has often been supported in the West). Mary has always been understood by the Church to be the first Christian, the very first believer in her Son, she is the one who responds to the annunciation of the angel, "I am the servant of the Lord, may it be to me as you have said." (Luke 1:38).

Which is to say, Jesus' siblings were older than Him and very likely already adults when He was born and out on their own.

Mary's faith should never be in question, she is one of the only people who stood with Him to the very end when He was crucified, all the evidence in the Gospel texts is that she believed in her Son and stood by Him.

Let's imagine for a moment that your dad and his new wife said that your step-brother was the Son of God. Would you believe it?

"No prophet is welcome in his hometown." - Luke 4:24

As such it shouldn't be entirely shocking, then, that Jesus' siblings didn't believe--at least not until He showed up resurrected from the dead. According to St. Paul's message to the Corinthians, it was the testimony of the apostles themselves that after Jesus had been raised that He showed Himself to a number of people, including His brother James (1 Corinthians 15:7).

It's fairly well attested that the early bishops of Jerusalem, beginning with St. James, were the Desposyni, (the "relatives of the Lord" in Greek). This only changed after the last of the Desposyni, Judah was expelled along with the expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem following the Bar Kochba Rebellion. As a result of Emperor Hadrian's expulsion of the Jews, and establishing the Roman colony of Aelia Capitolina upon Jerusalem, a Greek Christian named Marcus was chosen to fill the vacancy left by Judah. Which is all just to say that members of Jesus' family continued to play an important role in the early Church, not a special role, but that they did serve as bishops in the nascent Church. Though with the destruction of Jerusalem, the importance of Jerusalem in Christianity faded slightly, but continued to be honored as the "Mother of all the Churches" and one of the five patriarchates of the ancient Christian pentarchy (Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem). And there are still churches which use the Liturgy of St. James, the historic liturgy of the ancient Jerusalem Church.

Also, a bit of a correction on the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception doesn't refer to the virgin conception and birth of Jesus, but rather to Mary's own conception. According to Roman Catholic teaching Mary was conceived free of the stain of original sin by a special dispensation and grace from God in order that she might be the pure and immaculate vessel through which Christ could be born. It's a teaching that attempts to answer how Jesus could be born sinless by saying that Mary was specially made pure from conception to fulfill her role as the mother of Christ. It's distinctively a Roman Catholic teaching, not accepted by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or any Protestant church.

-CryptoLutheran

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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I haven't seen Habermas video, but there is a big distinction between divinity, and power. It's one thing to believe that He had power, and another that He was the second power of heaven. Simon 'the Magus', from Acts, had power, and one of the accusations by the Jewish people at that time was that Jesus's works were of the devil. It was revealed to Peter, only by the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was both the Messiah and the Son of God. It was Jesus's resurrection that keyed people into the fact that He was also the second power in Heaven seen in the Old Testament.

One example of Jesus in the OT is Genesis 19:24

Doubting Brutus said:

But this isn't a regular family. This is the 'Holy Family'. Joseph and Mary literally heard from God. God told them who Jesus was. What on earth would posses them to forget that 35 years before God had given Mary a child and told Joseph that this child was extremely special? Its not enough to say 'You know what parents are like, always unimpressed'.



But this suggests that God purposefully clouded the minds of Joseph, Mary and Jesus' siblings. What sense does that make? God told Joseph & Mary exactly what his plans were when he gave Mary a child. He even aided them in avoiding Herod. Why, when the most important part of Jesus' life is at hand (his ministry and death) would God suddenly turn Jesus' family into stupefied, embarrassed, disapproving unbelievers. It makes no sense.

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They were only human.

If you take the risk to read through full books in the collection called the bible, you get that. It's in every case -- Moses, David, various prophets, the apostles even: they do some things right, and some things wrong.

And this reality is old and familiar to many of us, who have been reading for while, and have read full books through, and so have seen plenty of these moments of 'saints' and prophets and more failing, doing wrong, stumbling, and then eventually repenting, and turning back to what is good.

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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Joseph was believed to be dead by the time Jesus started his ministry. Mary definitely had faith in him at very least at the wedding in Cana, but was wavering after his ministry got started in spite of having known so much. Perhaps she was just being overprotective, even if she wasn't disbelieving like his brothers were.

The story with his brothers changed after Jesus appeared to them having been resurrected. That itself is a powerful testimony IMO.

Doubting Brutus said:

My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

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First, no "immaculate conception" was part of this. But beyond that, we do not know that Jesus' Earthly parents did NOT, in fact, teach the siblings. That they are recorded as not believing may owe to the fact that, like other Jews, they expected a worldly kingdom to come and Jesus gives no support for that view of the Messiah.

Doubting Brutus said:

I was listening to a talk by Gary Habermas on Youtube where he went through his minimal facts approach. At one point, when he was discussing the minimal fact of early sources he got into Paul's visit to the apostles in AD circa 38-40. He said something which has been bothering me. Habermas was making the point that of the four men there, three of them were pretty damaged people (Peter denied Christ three times, James Jesus' brother was a non-believer and Paul was a persecutor of Christians). The thing that really stood out was that the biblical accounts speak of James and indeed the rest of Jesus' family not believing in his divinity. I think at one point the family are said to have proclaimed that Jesus was out of his mind (or something similar). My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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Thirty years of living without the miraculous (the time from infancy to ministry) can bring doubts to all that one saw and heard (the Holy Spirit had not yet been given). His parents and brothers went through the daily grind seeing nothing special about Jesus until He officially entered His ministry. Nothing during His thirty years would have pointed to Deity.

Doubting Brutus said:

But this isn't a regular family. This is the 'Holy Family'. Joseph and Mary literally heard from God. God told them who Jesus was

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only heaven can reveal the Incarnation Nobody would believe it otherwise . Mary couldn't tell anyone. Heaven häd to tell Joseph. But a small community in the heavenly loop emerged . That's why Jesus taught only those called by my father come to me. A reality He and His mother lived.

The adult sons of Joseph were most likely not living with him when Jesus was being brought up and Mary and Joseph would not be telling anyone how their son was conceived to protect Him.

I don't think Mary was young either. Her cousin Elizabeth would have more likely have been of the same generation, and she was post menopausal. Other prophets were birthed to aging women. Older women make better mothers. Mary also did not sound like a young girl when the angel appeared to her and the wording if the Magnificat shows spiritual maturity.

I do believe she had been entirely sanctified at that point and was thereafter without sin.

Why would God give His sons mother to a much older man who would die and leave a young widow with such a responsibility? No Mary must have been a good age when she had Jesus and able to fend for herself.

bmjackson said:

I don't think Mary was young either. Her cousin Elizabeth would have more likely have been of the same generation,

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interesting .Elizabeth was old enough to be known as barren.

bmjackson said:

Other prophets were birthed to aging women. Older women make better mothers.

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Even better a woman who was barren. The child is loved as a savior from God. she said;
This is what the Lord has done for me when he looked favorably on me and took away the disgrace I have endured among my people.”

bmjackson said:

Mary also did not sound like a young girl when the angel appeared to her and the wording if the Magnificat shows spiritual maturity.[/.

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true

bmjackson said:

Why would God give His sons mother to a much older man who would die and leave a young widow with such a responsibility? No Mary must have been a good age when she had Jesus and able to fend for herself.

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JOSEPH may have been a young man.

If May was older when she had Jesus and possibly post menopausal she would not have had more children. I think that God would want an older man to look after Mary during those vulnerable early years not a young one. He also died before Jesus was 33.

Doubting Brutus said:

My question then, is surely of all the people that should have been 100% convinced of Jesus' divinity or at the very least his special status should have been his parents. Mary received Jesus from God, Joseph was stopped from divorcing Mary by God, who explained all about the immaculate conception.etc Surely Joseph and Mary told Jesus and their other children about this quite significant event in their life. Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

Does anyone have any thoughts?

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Religion wasn't that much different back then as it is today, there were a number prominent sects with different views/theologies about the resurrection and Godhead. Depending which theological worldview they identified with, some couldn't accept the belief that their God could be born from a woman. An event like the resurrection would change some minds including Jesus' earthly family.

bmjackson said:

If May was older when she had Jesus and possibly post menopausal she would not have had more children. I think that God would want an older man to look after Mary during those vulnerable early years not a young one. He also died before Jesus was 33.

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Mary had become a vessel set apart having a most holy purpose. A Jew wouldn't take a consecrated holy vessel and use it for an ordinary purpose . Joseph being a just man wouldn't .

Doubting Brutus said:

Why did Jesus' parents not support their son's ministry?

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This is a good question. One would think they would be all in, no matter what. I think part of the issue has to do with expectations of what the Messiah would come and do. I think the expectation was that the Messiah would come and (probably through violent revolution) defeat the enemies of Israel and restore the kingdom of Israel to its former glory. But that is not what Jesus was doing, at least not in the sense they might have expected.

John the Baptist, who was certain Jesus was the Messiah, is one who began to have doubts. In Matthew 11 he sends some of his own disciples to ask Jesus if he is the promised one, or should they look for another? Think about the contrast between what John was preaching and what Jesus was doing. John was preaching that the kingdom was at hand. He upbraids the religious leaders for coming out to be baptized and warns them of the wrath to come, that the axe was already at the roots of the trees. He is expecting the Day of the Lord, where the Lord draws near for a judgment which would be swift (Malachi 3.5).

And yet, instead of the religious leaders having to endure the wrath of God, John is sitting in prison. And what is Jesus doing? He's walking around the countryside, healing people, holding babies, hanging out with tax collectors and prostitutes. Unlike John, who lived in the wilderness eating locusts and wild honey, Jesus is eating banquet dinners with Pharisees. What Jesus was doing just didn't fit what John was expecting.

I think the same may have been the case for his family. Instead of embodying their expectations of what the Messiah would be and do, he's aggravating the religious leaders, stirring up trouble. He's out of his mind, He's going to get himself killed. I don't know if I would go so far as to say that Mary doubted (although Jesus's brothers did). I just think she was confused and probably afraid for him. I doubt it was a secret that the religious leaders were getting tired of him.