Yes, murder CAN be justified...

Carl Emerson said:

I thought that would be obvious...

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It is not shown in scripture at all brother, so it is not really obvious.

Lets just sort out the Greek first...

For the wheel of truth to turn, the hub must be verified or the road get's rather bumpy.

Carl Emerson said:

Lets just sort out the Greek first...

For the wheel of truth to turn, the hub must be verified or the road get's rather bumpy.

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I'm willing to set aside that verse for now until you show where in the Law of Christ it says we are allowed to harm any man for any reason. Where it says it under grace if you would.

We would have to agree on and define the so called "Law of Christ" first.

Carl Emerson said:

We would have to agree on and define the so called "Law of Christ" first.

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The Law of Christ is everything spoken by Christ in Parable shut up in it's understanding until after his death(Matt 5 for example), and every Law/command/Ordinance given by the Apostles. Along with the Ten Commandments God's eternal Moral law that is not and was not a part of the Mosaic law written on Parchment that was completed/finished/fulfilled in Christ.

Carl Emerson said:

We would have to agree on and define the so called "Law of Christ" first.

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New testament Law(Fulfillment of the Old)
Declared all the counsel of God(Acts 20:26-28)
Continued in Doctrine of the Apostles(Acts 2:42)
Hold Fast to the Doctrine(Titus 1:9)
Teach no other doctrine(1 Timothy 1:3-4)
Paul has Planted the word(1 Cor 3:6)
Do the things commanded by the Apostles(2 Thess 3:4,6)
Hold Fast to the word and Traditions we have been taught(2 Thess 2:14-17)
Doctrine of Christ(2 John 9-10)
Observe these things(2 Tim 5:21)
Be mindful of the words spoken by the prophets and the commandments of the Apostles and Christ(2 Peter 3:1-2, 15-18)
Keep the sound words given by Paul(2 Timothy 1:13-14)
Fully known the Doctrine, continue in things learned(2 Tim 3:10, 14-15)
Know how we ought to walk, and what commandments(1 Thess 4:1-2)
Laws of God (Rom 13:2,9-10)
Stablish according to the Gospel and preaching of Christ(Romans 16:25-27)
Fully preached the Gospel of Christ(Romans 15:19,29)
Acknowledge things spoken as commandments of the Lord(1 Cor 14:37)
Gospel received by Revelation of Christ(Gal 1:6-12)
Christ the same today yesterday and tomorrow, so to is the word of God the same. (Hebrews 13:8-9)
Keep the Commandments given by Christ(John 14:15,21,23-24; John 15:10-15,17; Matt 28:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14)
Keep the Commandments(1 John 2:3-4;1 John 3:22-24; 1 John 5:2-3)
Keep the Ordinances as delivered by the Apostles(1 Cor 11:1-2)
Do the things we have learned, and received, and heard, and seen in Paul(Phillippians 4:9)
Holy word of God is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20-21)

A notable omission is Acts 15:28-29

And very importantly Romans 8 spells out our privilege of walking according to the Law of the Spirit within.

This is the central promise concerning the New Covenant - His indwelling presence prompting us regarding His take on the circumstances presenting themselves to us as we are in dynamic personal relationship with Him indwelling us as we heed His voice within. Jer 32:40 speaks of this regarding the New Covenant to come. Also Jer 31:33,34

Carl Emerson said:

A notable omission is Acts 15:28-29

And very importantly Romans 8 spells out our privilege of walking according to the Law of the Spirit within.

This is the central promise concerning the New Covenant - His indwelling presence prompting us regarding His take on the circumstances presenting themselves to us as we are in dynamic personal relationship with Him indwelling us as we heed His voice within. Jer 32:40 speaks of this regarding the New Covenant to come. Also Jer 31:33,34

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Both of those are in a different study, I guess I forgot to put them in here. Thank you for pointing that out. Acts 15:19-20,27-29; Acts 21:25

As to why I did not include Romans 8 is because I simply showing what the Law of Christ was comprised of/what commandments were within the law of Christ. I have a seven page study on the fulfillment of the Mosaic law and the Law of Christ I can send you if you would like the full explanation.

New covenant Law
New Covenant is the Law of Liberty:James 1:,21-22,25; James 2:8-12
New Covenant is the Law of Life/Law of Christ:John 14:6; Romans 8:2; Galatians 6:2
New Covenant is a Law of Righteousness:Romans 10:6; Romans 9:30
New Covenant is the Law of Salvation:Acts 4:12; Acts 28:28; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 2:8
New Covenant is the Law of Spirit:Romans 7:6,12,14-16,22,25; Romans 8:1-2,4,9-11,13-14,16
New covenant is the Law of Faith:Romans 3:21-22,24-27,31; Galatians 2:16; Hebrews 11:1-3,39-40



New Covenant Prophecy

A New covenant will be made:Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 28:10,13-19, Ezekiel 36:23-27,29-31
The Old Covenant will not stand:Isaiah 28:13-19
The New law will be written in their Hearts:Jeremiah 31:33-34, Ezekiel 36:26; Ezekiel 11:19
On a Tried stone will this Covenant be Made:Isaiah 28:16
This New Covenant will give the People a New Spirit:Ezekiel 36:26-27; Ezekiel 11:19
The New Covenant will be of the Promise of Faith:Isaiah 28:16
The Whole Covenant that was the Book of the Covenant would be Fulfilled:Isaiah 28:15,17

Law written in hearts-Hebrews 10:16;
The New Covenant is After the Circumcision of the Heart and Spirit:Acts 15:7-9; Romans 2:28-29; Romans 10:8; Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11-13

OK cool, the other issue I feel uncomfortable with is that in so doing you create a sense that there are levels of inspiration in Scripture.

The OT was all the disciples had and never once was its divine inspiration questioned.

If He sent the Children of Israel into battle, this cannot contradict His morality and ethics. So it is today, His heart has not changed.

Carl Emerson said:

OK cool, the other issue I feel uncomfortable with is that in so doing you create a sense that there are levels of inspiration in Scripture.

The OT was all the disciples had and never once was its divine inspiration questioned.

If He sent the children of Israel into battle, this cannot contradict His morality and ethics. So it is today, His heart has not changed.

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Not levels of inspiration, there are different laws. The Gospel of Christ is different from that of Law of Moses, because it is a more perfect law based in the Grace and Love of God.

The OT Law/Covenant was given directly from God that is not being disputed, but he also told us that a better Law/covenant was going to be given after the Promise of Faith given to Abraham.

When he sent the Israelites into battle he did so because the Israelite were his chosen people and those who stood against them were wicked. He gave every nation at that time a chance to accept YHWH as the one true God and join/support the nation of Israel, they chose not to. And so they were slain by both God and by the Israelite nation.

Now we no longer wage war because our nation is not a physical one on this earth, but our Nation is in heaven(John 18:36) and it is spiritual(1 peter 2:9). The methods of our warfare are no longer physical but spiritual(Ephesians 6:12; 2 Cor 10:4) the Lord alone meeting out his vengeance upon those who harm us(Romans 12:19; Hebrews 10:30).

So God's heart did not change as he still wages war against those who work iniquity(2 Thess 1:6-9) but the methods of OUR warfare have changed from physical to spiritual(Ephesians 6:12; 2 Cor 10:4), that is the difference. Since in Christ we do not love our lives(Revelation 12:11; Romans 8:36) and love even our enemies until our least breath(Acts 7:60) we give ourselves spiritually and Bodily to the Lord(1 Cor 6:19-20) who will exact vengeance upon all those that harm us(2 Thess 1:6; Luke 17:2).

It is no longer love thy neighbor and hate thy enemy-Matt 5:43-48

So you do not see any significance in the regathering of Jews to Israel in 1948. You believe that they are not a fulfillment of prophecy regarding the land of promise. You believe Israel should not have an army even when they are a physical nation ???

Carl Emerson said:

So you do not see any significance in the regathering of Jews to Israel in 1948. You believe that they are not a fulfillment of prophecy regarding the land of promise. You believe Israel should not have an army even when they are a physical nation ???

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I do see a significance to their being brought back there, but my belief is it has more to do with the Prophecy of Zech 14 and the destruction of Jerusalem than a fulfillment of them returning to a land of promise that they have forfeited the right to by first being disobedient to the Law first given them by Moses but to a greater degree their continual denial of Christ.

The Nation state of Israel today is not God's Israel.
I believe strongly and based on Scirpture that until they accept Christ then they are cut off from the root(Romans 11:17-24) their kingdom being taken from them and given to us who were not a people(Matt 21:43; Acts 28:25-28; Romans 10:19,20) that we may provoke them to jealousy(Romans 10:19-21) for we are now in Christ all Jews by the circumcision of the heart and Spirit(Romans 2:28-29), being made one blood and one people in Christ(Acts 17:26).

So no, I do not believe they should have an army, nor do I believe they have right to that land since it was taken from them by their unbelief. But that prophecy may be fulfilled as was spoken by the prophet Zechariah they are there until all nations are gathered against Jerusalem to take it.

Well I will pass on all that - I have no calling to endtimes issues. I do know most are wrong about what they believe, otherwise there would be more agreement.

I suspect you have an answer for 2 Tim 2:4...

"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier...."

Paul uses a soldiers life to illustrate a point about spiritual life. No mention here or anywhere about believers ceasing to be soldiers.

Rom 13:4 speaks of civil authorities bearing the sword to be feared, as they have God's ordinance to kill.

I suspect we won't get much further with this - even Rev 19:11 speaks of God waging war and smiting the nations (verse 15) this is not Old Covenant.

Lastly your focus on the 'Law of Christ' I find a bit sad as the anointing within is meant to be our teacher and instead you present another bunch of 'Laws' instead of encouraging folks to walk in the freedom He gives us in the Spirit. John 2:20-29

The Law could never lead folks to righteousness, it only serves the purpose of exposing sin.

The Law of the Spirit within us however, gives His heart on every circumstance we face as we walk in the Spirit, and as He within us partners in our life choices. (when we let him)

Carl Emerson said:

Well I will pass on all that - I have no calling to endtimes issues. I do know most are wrong about what they believe, otherwise there would be more agreement.

I suspect you have an answer for 2 Tim 2:4...

"No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier...."

Paul uses a soldiers life to illustrate a point about spiritual life. No mention here or anywhere about believers ceasing to be soldiers.

Rom 13:4 speaks of civil authorities bearing the sword to be feared, as they have God's ordinance to kill.

I suspect we won't get much further with this - even Rev 19:11 speaks of God waging war and smiting the nations (verse 15) this is not Old Covenant.

Lastly your focus on the 'Law of Christ' I find a bit sad as the anointing within is meant to be our teacher and instead you present another bunch of 'Laws' instead of encouraging folks to walk in the freedom He gives us in the Spirit. John 2:20-29

The Law could never lead folks to righteousness, it only serves the purpose of exposing sin.

The Law of the Spirit within us however, gives His heart on every circumstance we face as we walk in the Spirit, and as He within us partners in our life choices. (when we let him)

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2 Tim 2:3-4
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Christ has called us to be his soldiers waging spiritual warfare against all wickedness, using not carnal but spiritual weapons(sword of the word/spirit), Paul wasn't speaking of soldiers of this world but the Spiritual soldiers of God.

Romans 13 is not speaking of civil rulers but spiritual, short study on that here:
"Let us Learn the True meaning of Romans 13:

99.9% of pastors today teach that this refers to governments and rulers of the world. But taken/understood by the spirit of YHWH truth shows us that it is reffering to God and true ministers of Christ Yahshua only Rom 13:1 states that there is no power but YHWH. Also YHWH/Yahshua ordains those to teach his word ordinance's/laws/commands/doctrine All Are subject to the commands of God not those of the world. Romans 13:2,
Whosoever resistith the law/commands of YHWH/Yahshua resistith God, and will be damned. Rom 13:3 who are these rulers? See Romans 12:8. Romans 13:3-4 for ruler of the church of God. Those who teach his doctrine/gospel/commands are not against good, but against evil. His ministers shall praise all that follow christ and his laws/doctrines/commands. They, God's ministers, shall bring the (word of God)the sword against all evil workers. Heb 4:12, matt 10:44.
Heb 13:6-7
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

If Romans 13 refers to worldy rulers and governments. It would refer to all the governments in history. Such as Ceasar, Hitler, Mao, Sadam, etc. Did they reward Christ follwers for doing good?
1. Whom put Yahshua to death?
2. By who's Laws/authority?
3. Did he do Evil?
4. What Authorities put the Apostles to death?
5. Was it for doing evil? Romans 13:3-4
6. Did the worldly authorites praise Yahshua and the Apostles for doing good work? Matt 10:18-20 "18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
;Romans 13:3
Rulers of God's church (Romans 12:8) by rightly dividing the word of God we see that Romans 13 is not speaking to worldly governments. But is speaking of those whom God has called to lead the church in all truth and goodness. His ministers/rulers(Romans 13:6) teaching all his commands/doctrine/ordaninces. Rom 13:2,9-10 Laws of God. Yahshua and the Apostles teach us to follow God not man, but if man's law is NOT against God's we are to follow it.
Daniel 6:8-16
Daniel 3:12-29
Acts 5:27-29
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Peace "

Now again God wages war on the wicked, and during the end times all those who take the mark of the beast cannot be saved and will be destroyed by the Lord. Again his Character did not change he is still a jealous vengeful God.

We are not to use our freedom in Christ to sin(Romans 6:1-2).

The word of God tells us that sin is transgression of the Law(1 John 3:4) for where there is no law there is no Transgression(Romans 4:15) we do not make void the Law through faith(the law which is of faith-Romans 3:21-22,24-27) but establish it(Romans 3:31) this is how we know God to keep his commandments(1 John 2:3) those who say they know Christ but keep not his commandments are a Liar and the Truth is not in them(1 John 2:4) by this we know that we love the Children of God when we love God and keep his commandments(1 John 5:2) for this is the Love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous(1 John 5:3) blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city(Revelation 22:14; Isaiah 66:23).


The Law of Christ shows us how to walk in righteousness as the Lord wants us to walk, doing those things that are pleasing in his sight. Without a Law there is no sin, and if there is no sin then there is no need for repentance or for Christ's Atoning blood.

OK another bunch of verses...

We will have to agree to disagree...

You consider me condemned to Hell...

You say "Whosoever resistith the law/commands of YHWH/Yahshua resistith God, and will be damned...."

You sure take the high moral ground...

I hold onto the living Jesus within, enjoy His guidance, have no interest in a 'verse war'

Carl Emerson said:

OK another bunch of verses...

We will have to agree to disagree...

You consider me condemned to Hell...

You say "Whosoever resistith the law/commands of YHWH/Yahshua resistith God, and will be damned...."

You sure take the high moral ground...

I hold onto the living Jesus within, enjoy His guidance, have no interest in a 'verse war'

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I prove all things with all longsuffering and Doctrine as commanded brother(2 Tim 4:2,5; 1 Thess 5:21.

We disagree, but agreeing to disagree is not something I believe in.

I believe you are choosing a false doctrine, and therefore choosing a path that leads to the condemnation of Lord.

That is what the Lord tells us brother, he says if we resist his laws and commands then we are damned. The Lord set the standard of perfection, we are all supposed to do all that we can to reach that standard(even if we all end up falling short).

I also hold to the Living God Yahshua the Christ within myself, and enjoy the Guidance of his Holy spirit, I am sorry that you believe this to be a verse war, but as the Lord commands we are prove all things from the word of God alone. So that is what I do.

May God bless and Guide you to the truth and light of his word Brother

Strange - you call me brother in one breath and announce I am damned in the next...

By the way - that job with St. Peter - please don't apply.

Carl Emerson said:

Strange - you call me brother in one breath and announce I am damned in the next...

By the way - that job with St. Peter - please don't apply.

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2 Thess 3:15-16; James 5:19-20 ;2 Timothy 4:2-5
We are commanded to correct those in error within the Church Judging them by the word of God(1 Cor 2:15, 6:2-5; John 7:24;Matt 7:5). You are my brother in Christ, so I preach to you the truth of the Gospel that you may come to repentance and the acknowledging of the Truth(2 Tim 2:25).

But if you can show me to be wrong using the word of God given within the Law of Christ then I will believe it, repent, and accept the truth.

God bless you

When in doubt....don't kill people.
I can't imagine Jesus saying "You really should have killed that person, it would have brought glory to God and is perfect harmony with my teachings."

If they were mowing down folks with an AR15 I wouldn't hesitate.

Coming soon to a town near you... ???