Yes, murder CAN be justified...

Al Touthentop

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You would need to define murder in order for this discussion to be fruitful.

Murder isn't hard to define except to government lawyers. That's not an accusation, just a comment on the hundreds of pages of statutory definitions even in a single state's laws.

Murder: intentional pre-meditated taking of another person's life.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It seems you're being obstinate. What is wrong with Jesus' definition?

Like I said, Jesus did not condemn the role of soldiers. So context please... they were asked to be honest soldiers, not disarmed soldiers.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Like I said, Jesus did not condemn the role of soldiers. So context please... they were asked to be honest soldiers, not disarmed soldiers.

And they were told not to use force to extract payment. What's wrong with Jesus' definition of murder? And again, if soldiering for God were any sort of teaching of his, why didn't his 'army' fight back? Why was it that when Peter did draw a sword, Jesus rebuked him?
 
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Carl Emerson

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And they were told not to use force to extract payment. What's wrong with Jesus' definition of murder? And again, if soldiering for God were any sort of teaching of his, why didn't his 'army' fight back? Why was it that when Peter did draw a sword, Jesus rebuked him?

I already answered this...

Face it... professional soldiers were armed and Jesus only addressed the issue of integrity not the taking of life which was a normal part of their responsibilities.

The Apostles were not soldiers by profession and were called to Martyrdom.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Is is a matter of fulfilling God's purpose - He purposely came as a suffering servant not a ruling king.
He required His 12 Apostles to follow the call to Martyrdom but not all believers had this appointed calling.
He advised in Luke 3:14 as follows... 'Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” '
So clearly He had no issue with their profession.
John the Baptist told roman Soldiers to do violence to no man. He told soldiers to not harm men.
Luke 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?
You seem to equate killing with murder. Not necessarily so. How is killing in war the same as murder? --Particularly obvious in this is God's command, repeatedly, but always within bounds or context, to kill the enemy. That is not murder.
 
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Josheb

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What do you all think of this?
I think that is sophomoric and both scripturally and rationally wanting.


War exists simply as a product of sin. The Ten Commandments occur in a post-disobedient world to address post-disobedient (sinful) conditions. Aquinas was writing in a post-disobedient world trying to address post-disobedient conditions. We are writing in a post-disobedient....

There was no war in Eden. There was no murder of humans in Eden. The closest you'll come to war in the sinless pre-disobedient creation is the subduing of the earth and in that world humans had complete authority and power over all the plants and animals.

It must also be remember that although the Bible does speak of war and battle and conflict the fundamental reality of creation is that God is almighty and sovereign. He and He alone is the omni-attributed Creator of all. Those words have real meaning. And what they mean is that....


no attempt to wage war against God lasts one sliver of a fraction of a nanosecond longer than God permits.

He spoke the world into existence and He can speak it out of a existence. All creaturely efforts to confront God are like shooting BBs at an Abrams tank. Meditate on James 1:13 and the substance of "...God cannot be tempted by evil..."

We have no idea what that is like.

The law of God made allowance for self-defense and the defense of others in life-threatening need but that condition exist only in a sinful world.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?
The Lord has said that as Christians we not to take part in Government since we are the Ambassadors of the Kingdom of heaven(2 Cor 5:20; Ephesians 6:20), our citizenship is with the kingdom of God(Philippians 3:20), and so we are without a country or continuing city on this earth(Hebrews 13:14;Hebrews 11:13-16). The Kingdom of God is not of this world so we do not fight(John 18:36), instead we are told to be as lambs to the slaughter(Romans 8:36) who love not their lives unto death(Revelation 12:11). So as a Christian there is no justifiable reason for us to fight in any war for any reason, as the Lord has commanded us not to.

Neither is it justifiable to harm any man for any reason as we are commanded to love those who harm and kill us(Romans 13:10), even pray for them while they killing us(Acts 7:60)
 
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Carl Emerson

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A problem I have with this thesis is that it presents a different morality within the trinity.

We have a clear mandate again and again given By God in the OT to take life in warfare as soldiers of righteousness.

Secondly the rendering of Luke 3:14 from the KJV does not follow the meaning in the Greek. This verse is not commanding soldiers to refrain from violence as some are claiming. It refers to low paid soldiers not extorting money from folks by intimidating them.

Constructing a pacifist theology from this verse is not technically sound.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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A problem I have with this thesis is that it presents a different morality within the trinity.

We have a clear mandate again and again given By God in the OT to take life in warfare as soldiers of righteousness.

Secondly the rendering of Luke 13:14 from the KJV does not follow the meaning in the Greek. This verse is not commanding soldiers to refrain from violence as some are claiming. It refers to low paid soldiers not extorting money from folks by intimidating them.

Constructing a pacifist theology from this verse is not technically sound.
OT law is not NT Law. In Christ we have a New law that says that we are not to harm any man for any reason. Running to the OT to say that God allowed it then does not in any way show that the Lord wants us to do it now. Looking at the rendering in the KJV follows the exact path of the Greek and the message given throughout the rest of the NT, and that message is one of complete and total non-violence towards other people no matter the situation.


For no reason can we kill another man as they still have a chance at repentance and salvation and by killing them we rob them of this chance. That is a sin. Loving not our lives unto death is something we all must do, we must care about not just the lives and souls of our loved ones but about the lives and souls of those who we have never met, we must even care for the souls of our enemies. As Christ said.

Luke 6:31-35
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.


Matt 5:43-48
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


The Lord tells us that we are to have the same mercy on the wicked and the evil as the Lord showed us. By the Lord's love he cared enough to die for us that we might be saved. With that same love are we to love, with that same mercy are we to show mercy to the wicked and the evil who wish to harm us.
John 13:34-35
1 John 4:7-11,16-21

We are commanded to love one another as the Lord has loved us. And that love is to freely lay down our lives for our friends and to show mercy on the wicked and to love them as the Lord loved us(for he died to save the wicked and the evil that they may come to repentance and be saved through him).
John 15:10-13
Ephesians 2:4
Luke 5:31-32

It is this love that worketh no ill that we are all to have, preach, and show to everyone wicked and righteous alike.
Romans 13:10

Love not our lives unto death, not defend your life(or any other life) with violence.
Revelation 12:11
Romans 8:36
Matt 5:39
1 Peter 3:9
Romans 12:17-21

Overcome evil with good not with violence, overcome evil with love. And if we are killed by the wicked we should pray for those killing us as Stephen prayed for those who stoned him to death.
Acts 7:59


If we only love those who love us, and only do good to those who do good to us then we are no better than the people of this world. And the Love of Christ is not in us.

Additional verses.
James 1:19-20
Ephesian 4:26,31-32
1 Peter 3:8-14


Some try to use the passages about a strong man defending his household to say that we must defend our own with violence they also try to use the verse about the Lord telling the Apostles that he who hath no sword should sell his garment and buy one. I will be addressing these two theories briefly below.

Starting with Luke 22:
1. Christ said nothing about defending oneself with violence. This is what he was speaking of when he said:

35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


He that carried the purse and script was Judas(he was the only one with those things) he was speaking to what Judas would later do in turning him in

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

John 12:4-6
John 13:29

When he told he that had not the sword to buy the sword he spoke of peter who would draw up the sword
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: andhe that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Matt 26:51-54
John 18:10-11

This was said to them because all that was spoken of him must be fulfilled.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

He spoke of what needed to be fulfilled of him not of self defense.


2. Next read carefully what is written in Luke 11:17-26

These verses are speaking about casting out devils, where they go afterward, protecting yourself against them, and what happens if you turn again to evil ways(verse 24-26). None of what is said is in support of violence but instead to guard ourselves from demons.

Most Christians believe its okay to kill or harm others while protecting themselves, family, or country. Most so called pastors agree, but the word of God says contrary. Christ Yahshua says in

Matthew 5:7-9
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Matthew 5:38-39
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:44
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

John the Baptist told roman soldiers in,
Luke 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

1 Peter 3:9 says,
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Ephesians 6:15 says,
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

When Paul was struck in the mouth he did not retaliate with violence,
Acts 23:2-3
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

Revelation 13:10 says,
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Matthew 26:51-52
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Christ also says we are to be as wise as a serpepnt and as harmless as a dove,
Matt 10:16

Of course this goes against human nature. But Christ followers are to be separate and different than worldly people. They are peaceful, loving, and kind. When a man kills another man he takes not only his life but also that mans chance to repent and be saved. For all who die in sin are damned. This is why christians can not harm or kill anyone for any reason.
Romans 8:36
Revelation 12:11

No New Testament scripture says contrary. No! Not even one can be found. Anyone that teaches contrary is a liar and not teaching Christs one true doctrine.
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Timothy 4:3-4

Peace
 
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Carl Emerson

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Great presentation but completely ignores the matters I raise.

God does not change His morality but you have changed it for Him...

also if you want to continue to claim understanding of Luke 3:14 and Matt 10:16, please reference the Greek text. The KJV in these cases is rather wanting.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Great presentation but completely ignores the matters I raise.

God does not change His morality but you have changed it for Him...

also if you want to continue to claim understanding of Luke 3:14 and Matt 10:16, please reference the Greek text. The KJV in these cases is rather wanting.
His morality did not change, his law did. His vengeance is still upon all the wicked(Hebrews 10:30; Romans 12:19; 2 Thess 1:6), and thus he has not changed(for he said that he changes not-Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8) he is still a vengeful jealous God. What has changed is the Law, for we now have a more perfect Law which is the Gospel of Peace, in which only the Lord avenges and not us. And this was foretold all the way back in the Old Testament(A New covenant will be made:Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 28:10,13-19, Ezekiel 36:23-27,29-31).

He did not change the Law changed.

The KJV is the right translation. And again it fits perfectly with the rest of scripture.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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Seriously, in these two verses Luke 3:14 and Matt 10:16 the Greek text is not followed.

Greek scholars please comment.
And the rest of the NT tells us not to harm any man for any reason. His morality did not change his law did.
 
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StephenDiscipleofYHWH

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You already said that...

Let's wait for the Greek scholars and if none are responding I will raise this matter on a seperate thread to settle the issue.
Yes and you provided no evidence to show that God's Morality would change if we have a New law that does not allow killing.
 
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