Question for rapture people
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yeshuasavedme
Senior Veteran
I think he has already gone through a list.
Prove it wrong.
You can access all the writings of the early Church believers online.
I used to own the 38 book set of the "early church fathers", but sold them so as to help out someone in a time of need, but they are all online, and you can read them online.
Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
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yeshuasavedme
Senior Veteran
Have you read my replies using Scripture to answer OP?
And you can access the early church "father's" writings at the link I pasted.
https://www.ccel.org/fathers.html
If you are interested in actual research, that is.
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Back up a page if you are so inclined to actually see the quotes. Quit being so impatient as if we all need to jump when you want. Some of us have lives outside of forums. I thought it might be nice to have supper and spend some time with my mother who is 83 and has cancer. You sir, are lower on the list of my priorities. Significantly lower.
And if we don't jump when you call, we must be afraid. Well, as a Viet Nam Vet Recon Team Leader, I am quite confident that I am not afraid of you.
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If you're referring to Irenaeus, here's what one of your own, Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center, said:
"
Irenaeus
Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]
However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
"
No impatience here. I specified no time limit for a response.
Sorry to hear of your mother.
No one is afraid of truth unless it exposes their own fallacies.
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Hippolytus (170-235):
“…the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the CHURCH, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).
No pretrib there.
Enoch
You provided no quote.
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keras
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Revelation 12:6-17 tells about the Christians during the final 1260 days of this Church age. Which will be the time of the Great Tribulation; the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.
They, we; are NOT taken to heaven, as I have proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7.
Those who prove their faithfulness to God, will be taken to a place of safety on earth and nurtured for that 1260 days. Those Christians who failed to trust completely in God, must remain, Revelation 12:17, and it will be some of them who will become the martyrs as per Revelation 20:4.
These truths are plain and undeniable, the 'rapture to heaven' will not and cannot happen.
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Well, will have to disagree. Still seems that is where the Father's house is unless that can be proven otherwise. And of course, it all depends on which heaven is being discussed I suppose... 1, 2, or 3. And It seems from many passages in scripture that folks will be "caught up" not "caught sideways".
And it seems that the Father's house is the 3rd heaven and Yeshua is preparing chambers there for us. Isaiah seems to imply that both the dead and righteous living enter those chambers before the indignation comes upon the earth. And from the Hebrew root, it is a similar name as for the wedding chamber (hadar) that the marriage is consummated. And that follows the pattern of the Hebrew 1st century marriage ritual, and Yeshua and scripture are fond of equating the marriage to Him of those who make up the redeemed.
Now I am convinced it is only temporary. Just the 'hadar' for the Messiah and His Bride, following the pattern of the 1st century Hebrew marriage ritual. Unlike some common ideas of living there forever, like in the song "Amazing Grace". There leaves little doubt that the earth was created for man. And the New Earth will be created for man. So the Father's house is not a permanent abode for us.
And later on (which is a conundrum if no one is "caught up") when the old heaven (which I believe is the 1st and maybe the 2nd heavens) and old earth is passed away, where is everyone in the time frame between the those being destroyed and the news ones being created, and how will they get there if they are not "caught up" in some way? So it is likely that a second "caught up" will happen at the end of the 1000 years.
So there is a lot more dynamic going on to say that being caught up or "raptured" (which is from the Latin translation of 'harpazo' which is 'caught up') will not and cannot happen. There is a lot of scripture that makes no sense if it is not a reality. Timing, duration, etc are all on the table for discussion, but that it will not or cannot happen isn't.
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Of course there will be believers in the tribulation period. As the Book of Enoch implies, one of the primary reasons for the removal of the righteous before that period is a warning sign to cause those on the earth to repent. Some will. Unfortunately, since they repent after the removal, they are stuck here to deal with the calamities coming upon the earth.
So there is no conflict with a pre, or maybe at most a mid 70th week removal, and that there is those who become believers throughout that period. After all, if Yeshua was right when Hosea quoted Him.....
Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.
It would seem to suggest that it was the sin of rejection by Jacob/Israel that caused Him to return to His place. And that He will not physically return here until they acknowledge that rejection and turn to Him. And He seems to be referring to Hosea with His comments in Matthew 23:37-39. And if one studies out the GT period from both OT and NT, one of the main purposes of that time is to get them to acknowledge that offense and turn to Him.
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HopeInJesusOnly
Well-Known Member
My preference would be to not quote from this book, but to each his own.
Aside from this, I am learning a lot from this thread.
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I can understand that. Enoch is definitely a non canonical book. It does lend some clarification though, so not sure it should be tossed on the burn pile. And many scholars agree that the NT quotes from Enoch, and if so, then that lends a little credibility to the text.
Josephus is also and extra biblical work, but it does have some very good history in it that we can use in our understanding of the scripture.
The Scripture mentions and refers to many non canonical texts. The Book of Gad the Seer is mentioned and referred to in 1 Chronicles 29 and is not viewed as unworthy of gleaning information from. Gad the Seer was in the counsel of King David. We have that book as it was found in the Qumran scrolls. It even has a few nuggets pertaining to the topic of this thread.
Jasher is another book specifically mentioned in the scripture. So the same applies. It is non canonical, but it has information that can be used to expand our understanding of the scripture.
We would not understand the meaning and association of the Greek "tartarus" that Peter used if it were not for extra biblical sources.
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Thank you for that. She is tough woman. She gets a little more tired recently due to the cancer, but she still is pretty active. Would that I will have her stamina when I am 83.... if I get there!
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yeshuasavedme
Senior Veteran
I gave quotes from the first. Not quoting men who by consensus agree, but quoting the Word of God....
I begin with the first book of "last things/eschatology", the Book of "Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam", as Jude, the womb brother of our LORD Jesus called him.
Enoch writes of the rapture of the saints before the wrath is poured out on those on earth, and of the repentance of those who see the rapture and repent and believe in the name of the Son of Man but have to go through that time of terrible judgment of the wicked on earth.
Enoch 50: 1. And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2. On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
And He will cause the others to witness (this)
That they may repent
And forgo the works of their hands.
3. They shall have no honour through the name of the Lord of Spirits,
Yet through His name shall they be saved,
And the Lord of Spirits will have compassion on them,
For His compassion is great.
4. And He is righteous also in His judgement,
And in the presence of His glory unrighteousness also shall not maintain itself:
At His judgement the unrepentant shall perish before Him.
5. And from henceforth I will have no mercy on them, saith the Lord of Spirits.
Id you read my posts before in this thread, you will then find:
Moses' giving the signs of the rapture in the Living Oracles, in Leviticus 8.
Then David Psalm 50, agreeing with Isaiah 26:19-21, and David in Psalm 75: 2,3.
There is the living oracle of the Ark of the Covenant in heaven typed by Moses as he did all the things in heaven, to be "show and tell" signs of the Person and Work of the Redeemer/Kinsman...
Then, the restoration of all things which was promised from the beginning is what we wait for.
So since Paradise is in the third heaven, where the tree of life is, and Adam was cast down and out of there, and Jesus as the second "Adam", the "New Creation Man" has purchased the kingdom back and restores all things, and takes His seat on Mount Zion above/Mount Eden, and we rule and reign with Him forever who are raptured before the wrath of God is poured out on earth and all things are restored, then of course we go into that heaven to rule and reign in regenerated glorified bodies, -which was the plan for the Adam creation from the beginning...
I will either depart this corrupted flesh and await it's elemental regeneration from the dust or be regenerated while still living in it, at the rapture of the saints.
But I will not be on earth for that time of the pouring out of the wrath of God.
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Enoch 50:1-2:
1. In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell deliver up from hers, that which it has received; and destruction shall restore that which it owes.
2. He shall select the righteous and holy from among them; for the day of their salvation has approached.
Refers to the final resurrection and judgment involving both the just and unjust, consistent with Acts 24:15:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
And John 5:28-29:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
No rapture to be seen.
I invariably provide quotes.
What's your excuse?
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Better go argue with your brother Dr. Ice, because he obviously does not share your perspective.
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