Toll houses: gnosticism or revealed truth?

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I don't doubt their sincerity at all, it's just drawing a conclusion that isn't in the actual account.
Understood. By the way, forgive me please Father. I see how my post sounded and I didn't mean to imply anything about you. I'm just thankful that I don't have to try to sort people out in any situation. :)
 
Upvote 0

Stabat Mater dolorosa

Jesus Christ today, yesterday and forever!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
17,708
8,068
Somewhere up North
✟293,971.00
Country
Norway
Faith
Traditional. Cath.
Marital Status
Single
Understood. By the way, forgive me please Father. I see how my post sounded and I didn't mean to imply anything about you. I'm just thankful that I don't have to try to sort people out in any situation. :)

Darn! I was about to register the very first snarky comment by Anastasia so far on CF...
^_^
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,838
2,533
Pennsylvania, USA
✟745,287.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Do you really find it condescending?

I read it when I read the book, and again just now. It seems Fr Seraphim wants to be precisely understood. But I don't get any sense of condescension?

(Unless you mean the quote from St. Theophan that it doesn't matter whether people believe in tollhouses or not - they still will go through them. If so well ... it's just another statement that our beliefs don't create reality. What is real is real, whether we believe in it or not. But I still think it is a too-literal, too-material interpretation that stands in people's way. And they are right to reject that, IMO.)

Forgive me for jumping in. I was just surprised by your impression and had a moment to read the excerpt again. Thank you for sharing it.

I think this view ( of the letter I linked) lumps us toll skeptics into being “modernists”, “rationalists”, “immature” etc. Does such an expression really want laity to read the Bible and try, in some way, to spread the Gospel? I volunteer a fair amount of janitor work at our parish. Our priest is a good, faithful old school guy. I wrote down note cards with a basic approach to faith as the Lord presented in Matthew 6:1-18 alongside the basic commands (Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.) ( as outlined in the Didache) to insert into dollar store Bibles I bought to put in our narthex with our priest’s approval.i guess I forgot about the toll houses though.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Phronema
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I think this view ( of the letter I linked) lumps us toll skeptics into being “modernists”, “rationalists”, “immature” etc. Does such an expression really want laity to read the Bible and try, in some way, to spread the Gospel? I volunteer a fair amount of janitor work at our parish. Our priest is a good, faithful old school guy. I wrote down note cards with a basic approach to faith as the Lord presented in Matthew 6:1-18 alongside the basic commands (Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.) ( as outlined in the Didache) to insert into dollar store Bibles I bought to put in our narthex with our priest’s approval.i guess I forgot about the toll houses though.
People who believe in the toll houses are usually considered "far extremist zealots who believe in a legalistic and gnostic view of salvation" and "almost schismatics". So it is not only one side being criticized.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think this view ( of the letter I linked) lumps us toll skeptics into being “modernists”, “rationalists”, “immature” etc. Does such an expression really want laity to read the Bible and try, in some way, to spread the Gospel? I volunteer a fair amount of janitor work at our parish. Our priest is a good, faithful old school guy. I wrote down note cards with a basic approach to faith as the Lord presented in Matthew 6:1-18 alongside the basic commands (Matthew 22:36-40, Matthew 19:16-19 etc.) ( as outlined in the Didache) to insert into dollar store Bibles I bought to put in our narthex with our priest’s approval.i guess I forgot about the toll houses though.
Forgive me - if that's in the letter I must have missed it.

That doesn't seem his intent to me though?
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,452
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
People who believe in the toll houses are usually considered "far extremist zealots who believe in a legalistic and gnostic view of salvation" and "almost schismatics". So it is not only one side being criticized.
I'm starting to think there is so much talking past each other it might not be profitable to discuss anymore.

I'm speaking of people who profess such opinions - not directing it at you. It's sad because both sides tend to believe the same thing and not everyone realizes it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: buzuxi02
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I'm starting to think there is so much talking past each other it might not be profitable to discuss anymore.

I'm speaking of people who profess such opinions - not directing it at you. It's sad because both sides tend to believe the same thing and not everyone realizes it.
I'm not someone who cares that much if someone believes in the toll houses or not. Nevertheless, no one is going to like his belief being called "heretic and gnostic"
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Understood. By the way, forgive me please Father. I see how my post sounded and I didn't mean to imply anything about you. I'm just thankful that I don't have to try to sort people out in any situation. :)

no worries, I didn't take it any negative way.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
It's all in the interpretations. We know from Ephesians 6:12 that demons congregate is the expanses of the air. We see in St. Gregory of Nyssa where you can completely eliminate demons and come to a sanitized non controversial version of toll houses.
In St. Gregory it takes two to tango thus instead of us being dragged to hell, we happily go along to it. This is how its explained in his writing (Note I had to copy and paste the relevant quotes, some background St. Gregory and Nun Macrina have a conversation neither take Hade/hell as a literal locale and they incorporate the parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus):

And how, then, I asked, is it that some think that by the underworld is meant an actual place, and that it harbours within itself the souls that have at last flitted away from human life, drawing them towards itself as the right receptacle for such natures?
  • ...... Now I think that the divine Apostle in his deep wisdom looked to this, when he revealed the future concord of all these reasoning beings in the work of goodness; and that he puts the unembodied angel-world in heaven, and those still involved with a body on earth, and that released from a body under the earth; or, indeed, if there is any other world to be classed under that which is possessed of reason (it is not left out); and whether any one choose to call this last demons or spirits, or anything else of the kind, we shall not care. We certainly believe, both because of the prevailing opinion, and still more of Scripture teaching, that there exists another world of beings besides, divested of such bodies as ours are, who are opposed to that which is good and are capable of hurting the lives of men, having by an act of will lapsed from the nobler view , and by this revolt from goodness personified in themselves the contrary principle; and this world is what, some say, the Apostle adds to the number of the things under the earth.....

...(on the rich man who died and was found in Hades in torment)-.Meanwhile the denial of these blessings which they witness becomes in the others a flame, which burns the soul and causes the craving for the refreshment of one drop out of that ocean of blessings....
...Moreover, if each detail carries the mind away from a material acceptation of the story, surely the hell which we have just been speaking of cannot reasonably be thought a place so named; rather we are there told by Scripture about a certain unseen and immaterial situation in which the soul resides.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

F.E.A.R.

Emperor's Children
May 14, 2016
279
183
Warhammer 40K Universe
✟71,198.00
Country
Serbia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.

This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.

Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.

The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.

"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."

“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)

 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.

This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.

Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.

The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.

"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."

“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)
All who get to Heaven are saints.
 
Upvote 0

Platina

Well-Known Member
Nov 3, 2017
653
671
40
Mechanicsburg
✟227,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.

This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.

Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.

The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.

"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."

“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)
are you aware that Elder Cleopa believed in the toll houses?
 
Upvote 0

F.E.A.R.

Emperor's Children
May 14, 2016
279
183
Warhammer 40K Universe
✟71,198.00
Country
Serbia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
All who get to Heaven are saints.
I was talking in this life, not in the afterlife.
are you aware that Elder Cleopa believed in the toll houses?
I'm very well aware that Elder Cleopa believed in them. I have his book where he talks about them, I just haven't read it yet. What's your point of bringing that up? You are telling me just because some elder (a monk) who believed whether it be Cleopa or anyone else, I should be forced to believe in something that's not canonical? You live in the US, but we who were born here, on these soil orthodox grounds, ordinary people in the past and even to this day never heard such a thing as "aerial toll houses". Not just Serbia but every other Orthodox country in the Balkan. My great grandmother, mother of my grandmother, told her that when we die, St. Archangel Michael will come to your bed with his sword to take you to heaven. Funny that later I found out that this is an actual catholic teaching. People always had the need of fear to explain what happens when a person dies, the departure of the soul to the afterlife. There are a lot of different beliefs than this, some don't even care about it and don't make up stuff about what happens after we die. This aerial toll house teaching is the same. Someone made it up insisting that it's real, that demons await you in the air as you go up to attack you.

Demons have no power of our soul, not in this life nor in the afterlife. If the demons did have power over our souls, then people "who sell" their souls would never be able to get them back and would be an unforgivable sin (pointing out an example). Who knows what other stuff might happen. It's because of God and God alone the demons and Satan have no power over us, so if they did, we wouldn't have existed now to write here or do anything in our daily lives. In other words, we'd be dead.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,838
2,533
Pennsylvania, USA
✟745,287.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I was talking in this life, not in the afterlife.

I'm very well aware that Elder Cleopa believed in them. I have his book where he talks about them, I just haven't read it yet. What's your point of bringing that up? You are telling me just because some elder (a monk) who believed whether it be Cleopa or anyone else, I should be forced to believe in something that's not canonical? You live in the US, but we who were born here, on these soil orthodox grounds, ordinary people in the past and even to this day never heard such a thing as "aerial toll houses". Not just Serbia but every other Orthodox country in the Balkan. My great grandmother, mother of my grandmother, told her that when we die, St. Archangel Michael will come to your bed with his sword to take you to heaven. Funny that later I found out that this is an actual catholic teaching. People always had the need of fear to explain what happens when a person dies, the departure of the soul to the afterlife. There are a lot of different beliefs than this, some don't even care about it and don't make up stuff about what happens after we die. This aerial toll house teaching is the same. Someone made it up insisting that it's real, that demons await you in the air as you go up to attack you.

Demons have no power of our soul, not in this life nor in the afterlife. If the demons did have power over our souls, then people "who sell" their souls would never be able to get them back and would be an unforgivable sin (pointing out an example). Who knows what other stuff might happen. It's because of God and God alone the demons and Satan have no power over us, so if they did, we wouldn't have existed know to write here or do anything in our daily lives. In other words, we'd be dead.

If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying this doctrine is hardly known in what are considered “Orthodox” societies. My paternal grandparents were Syrian Orthodox but had passed away before I knew them. My father & uncles always remembered about the 40 days of the soul journey after death but not toll houses. I had never heard of any extreme terror in this except as how one is judged. The 40 days after death has remained common teaching in the Antiochian Church.

I might guess that the teaching of the 40 days after death has similarities to what C.S. Lewis portrays in: The Great Divorce.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

F.E.A.R.

Emperor's Children
May 14, 2016
279
183
Warhammer 40K Universe
✟71,198.00
Country
Serbia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
If I am hearing you correctly, you are saying this doctrine is hardly known in what are considered “Orthodox” societies.
Correct. No such thing was known as "aerial toll houses". People didn't knew about such a belief, nor do they now. Especially old people. You'll never hear old people talk about such thing.

My paternal grandparents were Syrian Orthodox but had passed away before I knew them. My father & uncles always remembered about the 40 days of the soul journey after death but not toll houses. I had never heard of any extreme terror in this except as how one is judged. The 40 days after death has remained common teaching in the Antiochian Church.

I might guess that the teaching of the 40 days after death has similarities to what C.S. Lewis portrays in: The Great Divorce.
Yes old people know about the 40 days thing, but I don't know what they think about it. Never really asked. For an example (this isn't connected with the title of the thread but I just want point it out), on these soil orthodox grounds, there still pagan elements over the centuries that haven't been erased. One of the clearest example as I found to persist is believing that the dead person would eat and drink in the afterlife. So people stuff things in his coffin and pour on his grave drinks and leave food. Because of the Ottomans on these lands, a lot of masses were not educated, so they mixed pagan beliefs with orthodoxy. You won't find such things written in English.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,468
20,025
41
Earth
✟1,455,670.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My friend you came to the wrong place to ask such a question and that's the internet.

This so called doctrine has become too popular in this past decade or so. It's not a dogma nor it is even a doctrine. It's just a belief that when you die you pass through these houses filled with demons that accuse you of the sins you have done in your life while angels defend you. If you fail to pass even one toll house you get dragged down to hell by the demons.

Since when did angels and especially demons have power of your soul? When did angels and demons become judges? Demons can't accuse you of sin, they never tell the truth, NEVER. Let's assume that you truly pass through these toll houses after death. You'll get accused with every lie the demons can think of, not the sins you've committed in your previous life. And then the angels defend you from every lie told by the demons. It's just a bunch of phoney baloney.
This belief propagated by the propagators who believe in this, eliminates all hope of salvation after death, because it insists that you become a saint in order to be saved, in order to pass through these houses. Every person has the potential to become a saint, but not everyone can become saint. Just like the tree has the potential to become a chair, but not every tree can become a chair, it could become a table or anything that's made out of tree. It's the same with a person.
What the propagators don't understand about these "toll houses" is that they're a metaphor. They mix this belief with what the desert fathers were saying and that's the passions.

The very roots of this teaching is gnostic and even worse pagan (egyptian afterlife). Because it has entered the church somewhere in the 3rd century. The early heresies all came from the east, not from the west. It's best if you find an orthodox christian who studied philosophy and also knows theology. It's there where your answer lies.

"One of the most powerful Scriptural arguments against the toll-house theory is the fact that there is simply no direct nor indirect mention of them in all of Scripture. As Fr. Paul O'Callaghan states: "No indication of the existence of the toll-houses can be found in the Scriptures. In fact, it would not be enough to simply say that such teaching is omitted. Rather, the theory of the toll-houses militates against the very nature of Christian hope for the afterlife. One cannot maintain the apostolic attitude of joyous anticipation of being 'with the Lord' in the prospect of standing trial before the 'rulers of wickedness in high places.' Christians are concerned with standing before the judgment seat of Christ… But by no means does the Bible suggest that we will be tried by fallen angels."

“We ought not to fear the demons or even Satan himself, for he is a liar and speaks not a word of truth…and with him are placed the demons, his fellows, like serpents and scorpions to be trodden underfoot by us Christians.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“But if the demons had power not even against the swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God. So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them.” The Life of Saint Anthony

“For if while the soul dwells in the body the devil cannot bring violence about it, clearly when it departs from the body, he likewise has no power over it.” St. John Chrysostom (Homily on Lazarus II)

you also realize the toll houses are in the life of St Anthony (at least twice) and in the commentaries of St John Chrysostom on the Gospel of St John?

you also presented the toll houses in a way that everyone who believes in them discourages them from being understood?

by the way, Fr Thomas Hopko studied philosophy and theology, and he believes in them.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Correct. No such thing was known as "aerial toll houses". People didn't knew about such a belief, nor do they now. Especially old people. You'll never hear old people talk about such thing.

I think as the tale of St. Theodora made its rounds in ROCOR in the early 20th century, that sensationalistic aspects were accepted, but many of these elements are now being rooted out.
Your right, that even if holy elders accepted it wholesale it should not be simply accepted. ST. John of Shanghai in his book On the Theotokos Birthgiver of God relates that on her deathbed the Theotokos prayed not to go through the tollhouses. This was never found even in the more sensationalistic accounts of the Greek version and is really no longer accepted.
Neither is a specific number of designated toll houses, not really part of the teaching any longer, neither is any belief that holy people at the hour of their death will be terrorized by these demons, etc.
Today the version of toll houses most readily accepted is that of Met. Ierotheos Vlachos who has discarded these more sensationalistic aspects. This more sanitized version even does away with tying the taxing of a soul with the 3rd, 9th or 40th day memorial service nor is there any idea of a "lingering soul" .
Met. Ierotheos also includes the teaching from St. Gregory of Nyssa that the passions affixed to the soul are attracted towards this dark realm naturally diverting the soul towards hades/hell by it's own accord. Here is Met. Ieritheos Vlachos teaching:
The Taxing of Souls
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

F.E.A.R.

Emperor's Children
May 14, 2016
279
183
Warhammer 40K Universe
✟71,198.00
Country
Serbia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
you also realize the toll houses are in the life of St Anthony (at least twice) and in the commentaries of St John Chrysostom on the Gospel of St John?

you also presented the toll houses in a way that everyone who believes in them discourages them from being understood?

by the way, Fr Thomas Hopko studied philosophy and theology, and he believes in them.
I do not believe that such a thing exists in the works of St. Anthony, not until I personally read the book myself. And I doubt that he speaks about "aerial toll houses". Saying that St. Anthony or St. John Chrysostom or anyone similar to them, saying that they spoke about so called literal "aerial toll houses" is just a misunderstood twisted representation of what they were originally trying say.

I said they're misunderstood not discouraging from understanding them. I said if such a thing exists as "aerial toll houses" then there's no hope of salvation and only a small group of people can be saved. If it does "exist", than the majority of people should let go of all hope being saved, because not all people can become saints, not all can eliminate their passions and becomes passionless in order to be saved. Because it'd be better to live a, how should say this, "unholy" life here on earth (like people nowadays live) knowing that you won't be saved, because it's not wroth to live a life falsely hoping that you'll be saved and then know you'll be dragged into hell by some demons just because you couldn't pass one aerial toll house. Those that believe that the "aerial toll houses" to be real should leave all hope of salvation (unless they have the potential to become a saint), because hope is the first step on the road to disappointment for them.

Idk who's Fr. Thomas Hopko, but as a person who studies philosophy, the majority people whom I know, never agree on this subject, sure there are exclusions, but people just do not believe in it, never will I too, because there was never such a thing called "aerial toll houses" spoken by the people on the grounds. It's become so popular in this recent decade or maybe even more idk how much, it's poisoning the church and the people.

I think as the tale of St. Theodora made its rounds in ROCOR in the early 20th century, that sensationalistic aspects were accepted, but many of these elements are now being rooted out.
Your right, that even if holy elders accepted it wholesale it should not be simply accepted. ST. John of Shanghai in his book On the Theotokos Birthgiver of God relates that on her deathbed the Theotokos prayed not to go through the tollhouses. This was never found even in the more sensationalistic accounts of the Greek version and is really no longer accepted.
Neither is a specific number of designated toll houses, not really part of the teaching any longer, neither is any belief that holy people at the hour of their death will be terrorized by these demons, etc.
Today the version of toll houses most readily accepted is that of Met. Ierotheos Vlachos who has discarded these more sensationalistic aspects. This more sanitized version even does away with tying the taxing of a soul with the 3rd, 9th or 40th day memorial service nor is there any idea of a "lingering soul" .
Met. Ierotheos also includes the teaching from St. Gregory of Nyssa that the passions affixed to the soul are attracted towards this dark realm naturally diverting the soul towards hades/hell by it's own accord. Here is Met. Ieritheos Vlachos teaching:
The Taxing of Souls
I guess the Russians made errors translating the original Greek texts, just like the Romans did in the early centuries. And things become a problem when not correctly translated. I'm happy to hear that this thing is being rooted out.
 
Upvote 0