Toll houses: gnosticism or revealed truth?

Rusviking876

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You know, if comparing it to the theology of purgatory (which is doubtful too) it comes of as to demon and occult centered.
In western theology it's all about Christ and his healing powers. In purgatory ones being purified in the light of God, and God is very present.
God accompanies the souls going through this process, he comfort them and his presence is everything.

In the toll house theology it's much closer to a part of the theology that we refer to as satanology. The demons enter the front stage and get to test humans as in trials. Its absurd and unsound.
Traditionally the weighting of good deeds and sins are made by the Archangel Michael, not demons.

Demons are having a field day with unbelievers and unrepentant Christians. It doesnt add up. Why does God give them power over humans after the human has died? Satans powers are traditionally seen as limited to the earth after he got kicked out of heaven.

This idea that Satan rules hades is heretical. So, Satan and his angles are kings and knights of the netherworld? Well, how is this defended theologically?

It's the post mortem aspect of the toll houses that I find gnostic and heretical. It's good reasons to believe that the devil torments people on their deathbed, but not unhindered by the angels and Gods presence. It's a spiritual war going on. It's not as if anyone gets off the hook regarding the end of life trials.
Even great saints have had great anxiety when approaching death.

I simply believe in the mercy and sovereignty of Christ in a much more fundamental way than some Orthodox does. It's no room for the huge powers of Satan except from this world. I believe Satans powers are now limited to time and space.
Tollhouses are not officially anything. Many have alleged the document it's based on is a forgery or simply the flawed recounting of a dream, which like all dreams was probably difficult to recall. Church Fathers are clear on not accepting dreams and spiritual experiences as an authority. And most here don't seem to believe it literally, but rather metaphorically or as a teaching tool that Orthodox can accept or reject. Taken literally, I believe it is heresy. I reject it for many of the reasons you do; it gives demons too much power. God's mercy is not represented. Christ tells us to treat the demons with contempt, not fear them.
Fatima, on the other hand, is officially endorsed by the papacy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If it isn't meant literally, what does it even mean then?

the same thing as when you read anything eschatological. Christ is Revelation is depicted as a Lamb with seven eyes and seven horns. that's not just a metaphor, but at the same time, not literal either.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Tollhouses are not officially anything. Many have alleged the document it's based on is a forgery or simply the flawed recounting of a dream, which like all dreams was probably difficult to recall. Church Fathers are clear on not accepting dreams and spiritual experiences as an authority. And most here don't seem to believe it literally, but rather metaphorically or as a teaching tool that Orthodox can accept or reject. Taken literally, I believe it is heresy. I reject it for many of the reasons you do; it gives demons too much power. God's mercy is not represented. Christ tells us to treat the demons with contempt, not fear them.
Fatima, on the other hand, is officially endorsed by the papacy.

you're not basing it on the actual teaching, which isn't based on dreams or visions alone. not only that, it sounds like you're only basing it on one vision, that of St Theodora.
 
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~Anastasia~

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You want to know something I find a little funny?

I just listened (again) to The Soul After Death in the Acquiring the Mind of the Church Series. The Soul After Death - Acquiring the Mind of the Church | Ancient Faith Ministries

Great series, btw - and this one is a good talk. I listened to it several times but it's been at least a couple of years. I would have said that he doesn't affirm toll houses. He even mentions Fr Seraphim Rose's book (which I also read and found VERY good on the topic).

What's funny to me is that he DOES talk about what happens to the soul after death. And essentially he affirms the teaching of the toll houses!

No, there are no demon-coins we pay tax with. There are not numbered boxes with specific demons examining specific sins in a court of law manner.

But what he DOES describe is just what Fr Seraphim Rose describes (though he doesn't seem to hold the book in regard and seems to equate tollhouses exactly with the Theodora story, in a literal sense).

The last time I listened to this podcast, I would have said he was one that taught against tollhouses. But now that I think I understand better what we are meant to understand from them, he DOES teach it.

I am starting to see why some priests just deny it all outright. It seems unlikely in many cases for them to be understood in a sense that is not too literal. I think what they deny is a mis-application.
 
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buzuxi02

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I am starting to see why some priests just deny it all outright. It seems unlikely in many cases for them to be understood in a sense that is not too literal. I think what they deny is a mis-application.
The problem with making it an absolute teaching is there are just as many stories in Orthodoxy where the soul is recieved up to heaven triumphantly with angelic singing and an entourage of saints celebrating etc. St. Gregory in his Dialogues includes both examples such as:
...she was brought to the last cast: and as when noble men and women lie a dying, many do visit them for the comfort of their friends: so divers both men and women, at the time of her departure, were come, which stood round about her bed: at what time she, suddenly casting her eyes upward, beheld our Saviour coming: whereupon, looking earnestly upon him, she cried out to them that were present: "Away, away: my Saviour Jesus is come": and so, fixing her eyes upon him, whom she beheld, her holy soul departed this life: and such a wonderful fragrant smell ensued, that the sweetness thereof gave evident testimony that the author of all sweetness was there present.

And this:

He began with great joy to cry out: "Welcome, my Lords, welcome, my Lords: why have you vouchsafed to visit me, your unworthy servant? I come, I come: I thank you, I thank you": and when he did often repeat these and the like words, his friends that were present asked him to whom he spake, to whom with a kind of admiration he answered: "What? do you not here behold the holy Apostles? Do you not see the chief of them, St. Peter and St. Paul?" And so, turning himself again towards them, he said: "Behold I come, behold I come": and in speaking those words, he gave up his happy ghost. And that he did indeed verily behold the holy Apostles, he testified by that his departure with them. And thus it doth often fall out, by the sweet providence of God, that good men at their death do behold his Saints going before them, and leading as it were the way, to the end they should not be afraid at the pangs thereof; and that whiles their souls do see the Saints in heaven, they may be discharged from the prison of this body, without all fear and grie
 
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ArmyMatt

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The problem with making it an absolute teaching is there are just as many stories in Orthodoxy where the soul is recieved up to heaven triumphantly with angelic singing and an entourage of saints celebrating etc. St. Gregory in his Dialogues includes both examples such as:
...she was brought to the last cast: and as when noble men and women lie a dying, many do visit them for the comfort of their friends: so divers both men and women, at the time of her departure, were come, which stood round about her bed: at what time she, suddenly casting her eyes upward, beheld our Saviour coming: whereupon, looking earnestly upon him, she cried out to them that were present: "Away, away: my Saviour Jesus is come": and so, fixing her eyes upon him, whom she beheld, her holy soul departed this life: and such a wonderful fragrant smell ensued, that the sweetness thereof gave evident testimony that the author of all sweetness was there present.

And this:

He began with great joy to cry out: "Welcome, my Lords, welcome, my Lords: why have you vouchsafed to visit me, your unworthy servant? I come, I come: I thank you, I thank you": and when he did often repeat these and the like words, his friends that were present asked him to whom he spake, to whom with a kind of admiration he answered: "What? do you not here behold the holy Apostles? Do you not see the chief of them, St. Peter and St. Paul?" And so, turning himself again towards them, he said: "Behold I come, behold I come": and in speaking those words, he gave up his happy ghost. And that he did indeed verily behold the holy Apostles, he testified by that his departure with them. And thus it doth often fall out, by the sweet providence of God, that good men at their death do behold his Saints going before them, and leading as it were the way, to the end they should not be afraid at the pangs thereof; and that whiles their souls do see the Saints in heaven, they may be discharged from the prison of this body, without all fear and grie

but, according to St Porphyrios, that actually affirms the toll houses. he says that for the saints or for the truly repentant, they are so fixed on Christ that they don't notice the demons, and His Light dispels them immediately.
 
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~Anastasia~

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The problem with making it an absolute teaching is there are just as many stories in Orthodoxy where the soul is recieved up to heaven triumphantly with angelic singing and an entourage of saints celebrating etc. St. Gregory in his Dialogues includes both examples such as:
...she was brought to the last cast: and as when noble men and women lie a dying, many do visit them for the comfort of their friends: so divers both men and women, at the time of her departure, were come, which stood round about her bed: at what time she, suddenly casting her eyes upward, beheld our Saviour coming: whereupon, looking earnestly upon him, she cried out to them that were present: "Away, away: my Saviour Jesus is come": and so, fixing her eyes upon him, whom she beheld, her holy soul departed this life: and such a wonderful fragrant smell ensued, that the sweetness thereof gave evident testimony that the author of all sweetness was there present.

And this:

He began with great joy to cry out: "Welcome, my Lords, welcome, my Lords: why have you vouchsafed to visit me, your unworthy servant? I come, I come: I thank you, I thank you": and when he did often repeat these and the like words, his friends that were present asked him to whom he spake, to whom with a kind of admiration he answered: "What? do you not here behold the holy Apostles? Do you not see the chief of them, St. Peter and St. Paul?" And so, turning himself again towards them, he said: "Behold I come, behold I come": and in speaking those words, he gave up his happy ghost. And that he did indeed verily behold the holy Apostles, he testified by that his departure with them. And thus it doth often fall out, by the sweet providence of God, that good men at their death do behold his Saints going before them, and leading as it were the way, to the end they should not be afraid at the pangs thereof; and that whiles their souls do see the Saints in heaven, they may be discharged from the prison of this body, without all fear and grie
Good point, and something that was mentioned by the teacher on the podcast I mentioned (though not in direct relation to tollhouses iirc). We have St. Stephen the proto-Martyr as well.

But as Fr Matt said, that wouldn't seem to negate the teaching within its proper context. The degree to which the demons can be a struggle for the soul is dependent upon their slavery to the passions. Some it would seem are very prepared and very ready to leave.

What it does make me think of is the notion that I regard with great suspicion - that the Theotokos was so frightened of encountering a trial that she was spared from it for that very reason and petition. I think she, as the best model for us all, was eminently prepared to go to be with Our Lord.
 
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buzuxi02

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What it does make me think of is the notion that I regard with great suspicion - that the Theotokos was so frightened of encountering a trial that she was spared from it for that very reason and petitio
That understanding has been dropped. It was part of the russian tradition but the Greeks never held to that. Todays tollhouse theory is a synthesis between the two the more sensationalistic aspects having been dropped. Instead saints can repel the demons. It goes back to St. Gregory of Nyssa that the passions cling to its kindred while the natural state of the soul are repelled to the opposite direction towards God. Thus creating a tug of war between the two, "being dragged to hell" is more your passions going after like to like.
 
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~Anastasia~

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That understanding has been dropped. It was part of the russian tradition but the Greeks never held to that. Saints repel the demons.
That's good to hear. Ever since I first heard it ... well some things don't sit right, you know? I didn't know where it came from though. Thank you for the info.
 
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ArmyMatt

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What it does make me think of is the notion that I regard with great suspicion - that the Theotokos was so frightened of encountering a trial that she was spared from it for that very reason and petition. I think she, as the best model for us all, was eminently prepared to go to be with Our Lord.

actually, in the two accounts where I have read that, she didn't pray to be delivered from the demons out of fear, but in her purity she didn't want to see their foulness.
 
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actually, in the two accounts where I have read that, she didn't pray to be delivered from the demons out of fear, but in her purity she didn't want to see their foulness.

On a side note: I've read further into the book about "life after death" and it refuted my argument about Pharaohs heart. I just felt like revoking that argument.
 
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Lukaris

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Apparently there are those who would compel us skeptical of this doctrine to accept it:

302. Dec. 7/20, 1980 St. Ambrose of Milan |

The condescension towards those of us in the laity who do not want this doctrine is all too evident in my opinion.
 
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AMM

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I remember a Catholic video talking how St Augustine described the devil accusing people when Christ was judging so I don't think it is mainly Orthodox.
Yep, I’ve heard that taught in Lutheran circles too. I hadn’t heard that it came from St Augustine though, but that would make sense (not saying that St Augustine is bad, but because Catholicism and Lutheranism are so similar and very Augustinian)
 
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actually, in the two accounts where I have read that, she didn't pray to be delivered from the demons out of fear, but in her purity she didn't want to see their foulness.
Now that would make sense to me.

I'm not sure where I heard/read it, but I've come across it more than once. Specifically that the Theotokos was so fearful of the demons that she entreated Christ that she would not have to suffer the tollhouses, and He granted her request and escorted her personally.

I don't suppose I asked here but from the time I heard it I was thinking - nope. Doesn't sound right. And since I never encounter it in the more official teaching I figured it was ok to ignore and let it go.
 
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buzuxi02

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Its found in Judaism as well. The term translated as satan simply means accuser. In Zechariah 3:1-2 we see this being played out. It's where we get the term "devil's advocate" from. He is considered a prosecutor who accuses the brethren as in Rev 12:10. The term satan is generic for an adversary who stands in the way of us and accuses us as in the story of Barlaam and the donkey Numbers 22:22
 
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~Anastasia~

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Apparently there are those who would compel us skeptical of this doctrine to accept it:

302. Dec. 7/20, 1980 St. Ambrose of Milan |

The condescension towards those of us in the laity who do not want this doctrine is all too evident in my opinion.
Do you really find it condescending?

I read it when I read the book, and again just now. It seems Fr Seraphim wants to be precisely understood. But I don't get any sense of condescension?

(Unless you mean the quote from St. Theophan that it doesn't matter whether people believe in tollhouses or not - they still will go through them. If so well ... it's just another statement that our beliefs don't create reality. What is real is real, whether we believe in it or not. But I still think it is a too-literal, too-material interpretation that stands in people's way. And they are right to reject that, IMO.)

Forgive me for jumping in. I was just surprised by your impression and had a moment to read the excerpt again. Thank you for sharing it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Now that would make sense to me.

I'm not sure where I heard/read it, but I've come across it more than once. Specifically that the Theotokos was so fearful of the demons that she entreated Christ that she would not have to suffer the tollhouses, and He granted her request and escorted her personally.

I don't suppose I asked here but from the time I heard it I was thinking - nope. Doesn't sound right. And since I never encounter it in the more official teaching I figured it was ok to ignore and let it go.

yeah, that's usually what folks say who try to discredit the toll houses.
 
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~Anastasia~

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yeah, that's usually what folks say who try to discredit the toll houses.
Hmmm. It reminds me of a point Dr. Jeannie Constantineau makes often that we should be precise on WHY we believe something. If we cite an unreliable source, it can weaken everything else we stand on (even if what we are saying is true).

Maybe someone invented it for that purpose. But I prefer to hope that people are sincere and misunderstandings happen.

I have the luxury of it not being my responsibility to correct anyone (in an official sense). So thankfully I can try to be more gentle.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Hmmm. It reminds me of a point Dr. Jeannie Constantineau makes often that we should be precise on WHY we believe something. If we cite an unreliable source, it can weaken everything else we stand on (even if what we are saying is true).

Maybe someone invented it for that purpose. But I prefer to hope that people are sincere and misunderstandings happen.

I have the luxury of it not being my responsibility to correct anyone (in an official sense).

I don't doubt their sincerity at all, it's just drawing a conclusion that isn't in the actual account.
 
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