Yes, murder CAN be justified...

Carl Emerson said:

I think the rendering is innocent as doves... Matt 10:16

Innocence can be forceful...

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Would you print out the reference. It does not render on some screens, especially cell phones.

I remember harmless was in one of Jesus sayings.... and doves, if they killed, would also not be innocent, btw.

Original Happy Camper said:

appears you have a problem here.

It is our interpretation that is flawed not the word of God printed through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I disregard all Bibles printed based on the Hort and Westcott transcripts

Sola Scripture

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What about the Bible 'printed' / written on the hearts of Ekklesia - Who wrote it there ?

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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War is not murder, and what Thomas says is that in order for a war to be justified, three conditions must be met:

zippy2006 said:

War is not murder, and what Thomas says is that in order for a war to be justified, three conditions must be met:

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oops... WHO said that ? Who said "to be justified, three conditions must be met" ?
THey contradicted Yahweh's Word if they say that today.

See the testimony , online, perhaps youtube, "Desmond Doss" who did what God's Word Says To DO, INSTEAD of whatever other voice says otherwise.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

oops... WHO said that ? Who said "to be justified, three conditions must be met" ?
THey contradicted Yahweh's Word if they say that today.

See the testimony , online, perhaps youtube, "Desmond Doss" who did what God's Word Says To DO, INSTEAD of whatever other voice says otherwise.

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As for me, I will take the word of an esteemed saint of Christendom and intellectual giant over a random internet user named, "Jeff." Perhaps you think that your internet posts are more important than St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologiae. If that is true, good luck to you.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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Jesus said that if you hate your brother, you have already committed murder in your heart. Governments can and often do legitimize wars by propaganda. Much of this propaganda is designed to lead us to hate others. In the case of the US it doesn't seem so coincidental that the people they want us to hate are non-white.

At any rate, God commanded us to forgive even our enemies. I don't see how the government somehow then is an umbrella by which we can cover ourselves from the commandments of God. Romans 13 does not allow us to follow our government off a moral cliff. If we think like that, then we have to judge Hitler's government as legitimate and ordained by God for "good works."

zippy2006 said:

As for me, I will take the word of an esteemed saint of Christendom and intellectual giant over a random internet user named, "Jeff." Perhaps you think that your internet posts are more important than St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologiae. If that is true, good luck to you.

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If St. Augustine's words conflict with the scripture, you ought to defer to God's word rather than his wouldn't you think?

solid_core said:

1. Philosophers do not say "haha", they act decently and without emotions.

2. Killing in a war is not a murder. Murder is an act from private personal reasons and from hate. Self defense is not a murder, defense in a war is not a murder, police chasing and killing somebody, if justified, is not a murder etc.

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That's not at all supported in the scriptures. There isn't a distinction made between war and personal reasons in the law of Moses. That is extrapolated from events described in the Old Testament.

If, for instance, a war is an aggressive war which isn't in response to a direct attack, then there really is no way one could describe it as "not murder."

So even if there is agreement that institutional killing could be justified, it could never be justified if the reasons for the war were illegitimate.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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1) Murder is not justified by definition. Not all killing is technically murder (i.e. executing a murderer after a fair trial presided by a lawful magistrate).

2) If Jesus were to command someone to wage violence against evil entities, that would be a command to be obeyed - but he literally taught the opposite. There is no honest way to derive a call to wage violence from the New Testament, Jesus and the apostles taught non-violence and gave other non-optional commands that rely on non-violence, and a Kingdom value that is completely incompatible with violence. Therefore, this argument you have presented is a moot point, because he won't give the command you are presupposing. If he needs someone taken out, he has an army of angels which is more than capable of doing so.

Bee_Brian said:

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

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I must have a faulty Bible for the life of me I cannot find this theory listed 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Ga. 5

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Would you print out the reference. It does not render on some screens, especially cell phones.

I remember harmless was in one of Jesus sayings.... and doves, if they killed, would also not be innocent, btw.

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OK... NASB Matt 10:16 reads "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

The literal greek means unmixed (meaning pure) so the suggestion of not doing harm is not there. This blends with Jesus driving out the money changers with pure motive.

Al Touthentop said:

Jesus said that if you hate your brother, you have already committed murder in your heart. Governments can and often do legitimize wars by propaganda. Much of this propaganda is designed to lead us to hate others. In the case of the US it doesn't seem so coincidental that the people they want us to hate are non-white.

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1. Do not hate your brother.
2. Governments have supported wars with propaganda.
3. Some of that propaganda is designed to lead us to hate others.
4. In the U.S. sometimes it is designed to lead us to hate non-white persons.
5. Therefore, war is impermissible. Q.E.D.

Ask me again why I prefer Aquinas. I dare you.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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True, but the evil entities are not "flesh and blood," as Paul says about our warfare in Ephesians 6:10-20. The armor we receive from God is tied together with prayer. Our warfare happens through prayer against the devil and demons.

zippy2006 said:

1. Do not hate your brother.
2. Governments have supported wars with propaganda.
3. Some of that propaganda is designed to lead us to hate others.
4. In the U.S. sometimes it is designed to lead us to hate non-white persons.
5. Therefore, war is impermissible. Q.E.D.

Ask me again why I prefer Aquinas. I dare you.

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Probably because he misrepresented God's law and you find that useful. Your therefore is of your own fabrication. I didn't say that because governments have waged unjust wars that we should therefore conclude that murder is wrong. I made it clear that Jesus went much further than the old law on murder and said that hatred itself made one guilty of murder. It's wrong because God said so. This is way above the specific standard for murder written in the old law, though that standard was really there all along ("Love your neighbor as you love yourself.")

You would rather follow the doctrine of men, who make excuses for sin, than the word of God itself which offers no excuse. That was already obvious. No need to keep restating it.

Carl Emerson said:

OK... NASB Matt 10:16 reads "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

The literal greek means unmixed (meaning pure) so the suggestion of not doing harm is not there. This blends with Jesus driving out the money changers with pure motive.

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Why did none of them defend themselves against their persecutors?

Al Touthentop said:

Why did none of them defend themselves against their persecutors?

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Sorry I dont get the question - can you elaborate?

Carl Emerson said:

Sorry I dont get the question - can you elaborate?

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If the use of force was approved of by Jesus, why didn't he or any of his apostles use force to protect themselves from people who were obviously trying to harm them? None of them fought physically for God. The one time that an apostle did so, Jesus rebuked him.

Al Touthentop said:

If the use of force was approved of by Jesus, why didn't he or any of his apostles use force to protect themselves from people who were obviously trying to harm them? None of them fought physically for God. The one time that an apostle did so, Jesus rebuked him.

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Is is a matter of fulfilling God's purpose - He purposely came as a suffering servant not a ruling king.
He required His 12 Apostles to follow the call to Martyrdom but not all believers had this appointed calling.
He advised in Luke 3:14 as follows... 'Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” '
So clearly He had no issue with their profession.

Carl Emerson said:

Is is a matter of fulfilling God's purpose - He purposely came as a suffering servant not a ruling king.
He required His disciples to follow the call to Martyrdom but not all believers had this appointed calling.
He advised in Luke 3:14 as follows... 'Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” '
So clearly He had no issue with their profession.

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Which isn't really addressing the question. None of this says we are to give ourselves permission to murder people under any circumstances. If you are defending the excusing of murder as a part of institutional war, and I can't tell so far if you are, wouldn't that mean that God's purpose has changed?

How would we deduce that from scripture?

Al Touthentop said:

Which isn't really addressing the question. None of this says we are to give ourselves permission to murder people under any circumstances. If you are defending the excusing of murder as a part of institutional war, and I can't tell so far if you are, wouldn't that mean that God's purpose has changed?

How would we deduce that from scripture?

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You would need to define murder in order for this discussion to be fruitful.