How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Many religions have martyrs so what's your point?

The title of the thread suggests that free will causes one to have their faith in Christ destroyed. This is not true.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The title of the thread suggests that free will causes one to have their faith in Christ destroyed. This is not true.

They trust in themselves not in Christ.

Acts2:38 · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will chooses and idol unless born again when the will becomes free.

Free will chooses to obey God or not 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

Look at Revelations 2 and 3. Our Savior gave those churches a choice to do his will or have their lampstand taken.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 14, 2019

bling said:
So how and when did you obtain unselfish, unconditional, sacrificial, unconditional Godly type Love for yourself to Love God and others with?

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Is that what's called a double conundrum ? Or straw man? Or starting with a false belief/ false premise ?

Couldn't tell if you meant someone did obtain something (underlined),
or were pointing out clearly in some way that they did not obtain something... i.e. or also, did THEY claim they had those things ?

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 14, 2019

This is clearly false witness against many in Scripture and in life on earth.

Dave L said:
They trust in themselves not in Christ.

zoidar · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Unless born again they can't discern Christ in truth.

Dave L said:
Free will chooses and idol unless born again when the will becomes free.

People aren't saved from theology, so you don't have to worry. You may be a "free-willer" or "God-willer" or whatever it is called, but that has nothing to do with salvation.

MDC · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will means all people have partial salvation. And all they must do is provide what’s needed to complete it. So different groups fill in the blanks with different levels of obedience to complete the task. They are half saved having free will. And fully saved by choosing to obey.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

As Martin Luther said; "First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.”

He continues; “For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved." Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

So in the end people have sight faith, trusting in tangible items keen to the senses. But only few have faith sight where they trust in Christ alone to save them.

Luther is absolutely correct

rockytopva · Dec 14, 2019

I plan on Photoshopping this cartoon and naming it, "An Arminian Misses Heaven" And... Instead of story book problems put the 110 commentaries of John Calvin in the library.

bling · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Nobody comes to Christ apart from him first granting the New Birth.

I am talking about giving up, quitting and surrendering to their enemy God, not really happily doing anything, like coming to Christ.

bling · Dec 14, 2019

rnmomof7 said:
Whosoever does not support "free will"

John 1:12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

The Father elects... the Son saves those the Father elects

John 6:37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father.
65Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Faith is a. gift of God.. it is not Dorothy clicking her heels together and wanting to go home

?

The "whosoever" does this or that results in blessing or curse, showing the results are up to the free will of the person, it is not who I choose.

Those invited to the banquets had a choice so God the father is inviting some who refuse to come.
Faith is a gift all mature adults have, but they have got to direct that faith toward God. The Bible talks of trusting and putting faith in thing other than God, so all mature adults have that kind of god given faith.

bling · Dec 14, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Couldn't tell if you meant someone did obtain something (underlined),
or were pointing out clearly in some way that they did not obtain something... i.e. or also, did THEY claim they had those things ?

That just partly defines Godly type Love, just wanted him to explain when and how he obtained it.

Bruce Leiter · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will means all people have partial salvation. And all they must do is provide what’s needed to complete it. So different groups fill in the blanks with different levels of obedience to complete the task. They are half saved having free will. And fully saved by choosing to obey.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

As Martin Luther said; "First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.”

He continues; “For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved." Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

So in the end people have sight faith, trusting in tangible items keen to the senses. But only few have faith sight where they trust in Christ alone to save them.

I agree. I heard recently a good distinction. People say that seeing is believing, but with true faith in Jesus' victory, believing is seeing because of the new birth God gives us. Our faith is not at all to our credit but all to God's honor, since we can't believe apart from his work in our hearts. Then, we can "see" clearly.

JacksBratt · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will means all people have partial salvation. And all they must do is provide what’s needed to complete it. So different groups fill in the blanks with different levels of obedience to complete the task. They are half saved having free will. And fully saved by choosing to obey.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

As Martin Luther said; "First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.”

He continues; “For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved." Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

So in the end people have sight faith, trusting in tangible items keen to the senses. But only few have faith sight where they trust in Christ alone to save them.

You have just hurt my head.. You have taken this:

and turned it into this:

I have free will. I can accept Christ, reject Him, go get in my car.. sit in my rec room, eat steak or peanut butter, hold the door for someone or not.... go to church, stay home, pray or curse.... I have total free will...

I also have the choice to accept that I am a sinner and can do nothing to save myself.

I can choose to believe that I will be saved if I help every old lady across the street, shovel every lane on my block, cut everyone's grass, give every dime to charity... all this to make me a good person... meanwhile still be headed for hell.

It is simple as 2 + 2 = 4 There is no logic in a heaven full of humans that did not have free will to chose their savior. God could have just created us as righteous minions with no worry of choosing anything else but to love Him.

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 (KJV 1900)

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:13 (KJV 1900)

None of these passages are in conflict with the post to which you're responding. If they are, then perhaps you can explain why.

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

Bruce Leiter said:
I agree. I heard recently a good distinction. People say that seeing is believing, but with true faith in Jesus' victory, believing is seeing because of the new birth God gives us. Our faith is not at all to our credit but all to God's honor, since we can't believe apart from his work in our hearts. Then, we can "see" clearly.

So then the apostles couldn't have had faith since they saw the resurrected Christ.

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

rnmomof7 said:
I guess I don't see free will in any of those verses

That is your free will. You chose not to see it.

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Partial salvation does not exist. Free will says it does. How? Free will is part of salvation. So when people claim is before salvation they are logically claiming they ar 1/2 saved buy to no avail unless they choose to close the deal.

Free will does not say anything at all. It is an idea that describes our ability to make decisions without coercion. Only intelligent beings can say things.

Free will isn't part of salvation. It's merely a quality that God gave us.

So when people claim is before salvation they are logically claiming they ar 1/2 saved buy to no avail unless they choose to close the deal.

Could you rewrite this so it is comprehensible? I don't mean to grammar flame you but it would appear you left something out of this sentence. What do people claim is before salvation?

You can't be 1/2 saved and nobody is saying that.

rnmomof7 · Dec 14, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
That is your free will. You chose not to see it.

Actually not one of those verses teach free will ... we all have a tendency to read the scripture through our doctrinal lens ... I believe the is what you are doing when you see free will ...

Acts2:38 · Dec 14, 2019

rnmomof7 said:
Actually not one of those verses teach free will ... we all have a tendency to read the scripture through our doctrinal lens ... I believe the is what you are doing when you see free will ...

No one can deny free will in Revelation 2 and 3.

Our Lord tells these churches their crimes that he hates, then tell them that he will take away their lampstand if they continue on that path.

It was their choice to either continue on a path to destruction or obey God by their own free choice.

"1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Free will is undeniable.

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

rnmomof7 said:
Actually not one of those verses teach free will ... we all have a tendency to read the scripture through our doctrinal lens ... I believe the is what you are doing when you see free will ...

Well by now, I have no idea which scriptures you are referring to. Jesus told his followers to take up their own crosses and to count the costs of discipleship. If God is supposed to do all of that for you, then Jesus was really confused. I do hope you are not of that opinion.

And as I pointed out in response to the OP, Luther wasn't saying that there was no free will in the passages quoted. He in fact acknowledges it. So you're not only misrepresenting what Luther said, you're misrepresenting what God said.

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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