Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

redleghunter said:

It did come from ECLA.org you may want to visit the site and see the nice message your presiding bishop The Rev. Elizabeth A. Eaton has for your faith community on the Arab-Israeli conflict:


Presiding bishop statement on Israeli civilian settlements



On the link I provided for human sexuality you will also down page find other church statements of faith.

Human Sexuality

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Different synod than ours, but as I said it will take time to learn more, probably not today!

Albion said:

These Lutheran videos that get posted here from time to time are gems, aren't they?

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You mean the jokes about ELCA Redleghunter posts?

Those are sometimes funny to me, because I don't identify really with a denomination.

They might not be funny to someone that grew up Lutheran, and hasn't been in many denominations, but thinks of themself as Lutheran. But a lot of Lutherans would just smile. We are secure in faithfulness see.

Imagine if someone made jokes about the Anglican church I guess. It might be funny to some Anglicans but not to others.

But the one about replacing the magazines with Bibles was not even slightly realistic, but sort of the opposite of realistic. It's a profoundly bible using church. That one seemed...unfortunate, because it suggests a definite falsehood. A visit to an ELCA church would correct such illusion.

@redleghunter

redleghunter said:

Having been raised in a devout Irish Catholic family and educated in her schools, I have to say the Roman Catholic Church is not ambiguous on their standing on marriage. It is clearly articulated in her catechism, CCD, adult catechism training and sacraments including the pre-marriage counseling. I had to read 17 pages of the ECLA document on human sexuality to finally get to their standing on what constitutes a Christian marriage. And even reading that portion they leave it up to the individual conscience.

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Glad your local church was helpful that way. If you don't mind, friendly curiosity, why did you leave that denomination?

Halbhh said:

You mean the jokes about ELCA Redleghunter posts?

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Oh no. Different people have posted a number of cartoons similar to that one, and they're are all from Lutheran sources.

They might not be funny to someone that grew up Lutheran, and hasn't been in many denominations, but thinks of themself as Lutheran. But a lot of Lutherans would just smile. We are secure in faithfulness see.

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Secure enough to actually list "Lutheran" on one's personal profile?

Albion said:

Oh no. Different people have posted a number of cartoons similar to that one, and they're are all from Lutheran sources.

Secure enough to actually list "Lutheran" on one's personal profile?

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Personally I think everyone that believes ought to identify that instead of a denomination.

Do you find jokes about the Anglican church funny yourself?

Halbhh said:

Do you find jokes about the Anglican church funny yourself?

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Absolutely. But I really think you should avail yourself of some of the cartoons in question, not just the one that launched this exchange, before deciding whether you disapprove of them or not.

I've never been Lutheran of any variety, but I did attend a bible study that was located in an ELCA church and I can testify that they had pew bibles and hymnals all throughout the sanctuary.

Halbhh said:

Glad your local church was helpful that way. If you don't mind, friendly curiosity, why did you leave that denomination?

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Indeed many are curious.

redleghunter said:

I’m sure your church may reject the official ECLA stand on same sex marriage. Only Lutherans around here are LCMS. I did attend services there a few times when my son was in their school. My twin godchildren were baptized there as well.

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There are a few ELCA members on the site. I myself am more of a fan of the LCMS, WELS or ELDONA.

bekkilyn said:

I've never been Lutheran of any variety, but I did attend a bible study that was located in an ELCA church and I can testify that they had pew bibles and hymnals all throughout the sanctuary.

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I don’t know where the magazines-in-pews comment came from, but I don’t think anyone takes that literally.

Here is an article by Dr. Al Mohler, who I greatly admire, talking about what is at stake: Get on the Right Side of History or Die: An Open Challenge to Christian Higher Education

And on a similar note, the courageous valedictory address of the Archbishop of Sydney (whose province is extremely conservative and adheres to low church evangelical Anglican praxis, unlike the rest of the Anglican provinces in Australia): SYDNEY: Anglican Archbishop tells same-sex marriage supporters to leave the Anglican Church | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

@98cwitr and @redleghunter - I have really been enjoying your comments in this thread, and this thread itself; I hope you find the central theme of these articles interesting, and I would love to read your opinion on them.

The Liturgist said:

Here is an article by Dr. Al Mohler, who I greatly admire, talking about what is at stake: Get on the Right Side of History or Die: An Open Challenge to Christian Higher Education

And on a similar note, the courageous valedictory address of the Archbishop of Sydney (whose province is extremely conservative and adheres to low church evangelical Anglican praxis, unlike the rest of the Anglican provinces in Australia): SYDNEY: Anglican Archbishop tells same-sex marriage supporters to leave the Anglican Church | VirtueOnline – The Voice for Global Orthodox Anglicanism

@98cwitr and @redleghunter - I have really been enjoying your comments in this thread, and this thread itself; I hope you find the central theme of these articles interesting, and I would love to read your opinion on them.

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Thank you brother. Before you signed up we had a thread on the Archbishop in question.

'Please leave': why the Sydney archbishop's same-sex marriage message has Anglicans rattled

The Liturgist said:

I don’t know where the magazines-in-pews comment came from, but I don’t think anyone takes that literally.

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I think there was a Babylon Bee satire article posted which some took seriously.

The Liturgist said:

I don’t know where the magazines-in-pews comment came from, but I don’t think anyone takes that literally.

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It could have been this in satire section.

The Liturgist said:

I don’t know where the magazines-in-pews comment came from, but I don’t think anyone takes that literally.

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It was a 'joke' in the jokes section that while at first I found amusing for a minute, since anyone has met some in some churches that are too political, and so that makes a satire possible....but....later on reflection I realized it was...well, honestly, it seems to politicize and even slander certain churches using a worldly label (in this case instead of 'fundamentalist' or 'right wing' being misrepresented, this time the misrepresentation is against 'progressive'):
Gideons Announce Daring Plan To Sneak Bibles Into Progressive Churches

Since in reality, such churches (at least the ones I've visited) are typically chock full of bibles, so that you'd see usually about a bible ever 2 feet or so in the under-the-pew holders. Anyone in the church can grab one and read along (I've done this more than just a few times), if they don't like to read the scripture from the projector screens where it's being displayed as it's read, at length, often, or if they wonder how the translation being used compares to the standard in the pew.

This situation is sorta like gradeshool 40-50 years ago. Some one would mock some kid, and it might seem funny at first...for a minute.

....but after time, maybe later in the day, after you reflect on it, it's was not funny, but instead you feel guilty if you laughed, because then you were only another mocker. But, of course, we can repent of such wrongs.

redleghunter said:

Indeed many are curious.

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Well, I'm asking from warmth a sincere question that matters, and it's anything but idle curiosity. You could PM me tho.

98cwitr said:

It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire to learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

It would seem to me that inclusive Christianity is becoming so inclusive they'd openly invite the devil in if he weren't already there.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?

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1) Christ is very clear, "I did not call the righteous, but the unrighteous to repentance."
2) This really boils down to moralistic tribal identity than actual righteousness. Because it serves the sole purpose in demonizing "those people" while letting me feel good about myself for being part of the good tribe. In other words, the very foundational premise in its tribalism is itself anti-Christian and unrighteous a la "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’"

So how about this instead,

Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.

Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

1) Christ is very clear, "I did not call the righteous, but the unrighteous to repentance."
2) This really boils down to moralistic tribal identity than actual righteousness. Because it serves the sole purpose in demonizing "those people" while letting me feel good about myself for being part of the good tribe. In other words, the very foundational premise in its tribalism is itself anti-Christian and unrighteous a la "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’"

So how about this instead,

Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.

Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

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That prayer originated in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, in Mattins and Evensong, and as you may know, the 18th and 19th century Lutherans got on well with Anglicans, and almost every English language Lutheran altar book, agenda or hymnal is at least partially derived from it. And the Lutheran Book of Worship (the “Green Book”) was compiled concurrently with the 1979 Book of Common Prayer.

I think the sentiment is very good. I would just caution against man-made mission statements and creeds in general when it comes to establishing a congregation. The word is itself the seed and when you plant the seed, it grows into either a Christian or a church depending on the circumstances.

The reason that we have so much of this permissive attitude is the general cult of personality in our society and the lack of knowledge by the members themselves. Instead of studying the word they are content to listen to preachers who are more interested in novel sermons that highlight their own "wisdom of words" than the pure gospel delivered in the Bible.

I actually saw a video of a preacher who said that because God brought all of the animals to Adam, to see what he would call them, that this meant that God had no idea what he had created and that it was Adam who therefore created everything. There are people who watch this sort of sermon and find it impressive. Clearly these are not people who have read their own Bibles.

bling said:

What we might need is severe persecution like you might find in Communist China.

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Do "we" need that or would you exclude yourself? Can we be good Christians without having Kalashnikovs pointed at our heads?