How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
I disagree. Scripture is the only source of authority. We also have reading comprehension and grammar guidelines in language. There is only one possible answer.

Your opinion does not matter, only what scripture states. where is your evidence?

Here is another verse I am giving you, and you still have yet to provide much at all.

2 Peter 3:9

Try Luther's quote in the OP. If you prefer. Erasmus could not refute it.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

bling said:
A soldier in battle (soldiers of satan as nonbeliever fighting their enemy God) can come to his/her senses and see they got themselves starving to death in a pigsty (like the prodigal son) the choice is to be macho, pay the piper, take the punishment you fully deserve or surrender to your enemy even though you still can be hating god at the time, you are just willing to accept undeserved charity from your enemy, an enemy which you know has the right to torture you to death for your war crimes. You are not keeping God from torturing you to death by surrendering, but you are willing to humbly accept His pure undeserved charity.

Nobody comes to Christ apart from him first granting the New Birth.

zoidar · Dec 14, 2019

... deleted...

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
This is salvation by works. John said;
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Before we can continue a discussion on this, we have to establish the basic premises that are solid. There isn't any such thing as partial salvation. Free will cannot establish something that doesn't exist.

And your scripture there does not say it isn't possible to commit sin. It is saying that a person who takes it seriously will never decide to sin. God has never in history prevented man from sinning either by command or magic powers.

Acts2:38 · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Try Luther's quote in the OP. If you prefer. Erasmus could not refute it.

So your evidence comes from a man? Not scripture? Even the quote has no scriptural evidence attached.

Where is your evidence I ask for a 3rd time. Scripture. Not a mans quotes. Not your opinion. Where is your scriptural defense?

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
OT Law was based on free will. The NT is based on grace, not law. Free will aimed at the NT produces a false gospel that cannot save.

Scripture where mankind had free will in the OT but not in the NT?

Al Touthentop · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Nobody comes to Christ apart from him first granting the New Birth.

That's not what Paul said nor is it what Jesus said. Nobody gets IN to Christ without being born again. And to be born again, BOTH Jesus and Paul explains is a result of water and the Spirit.

As Paul says,

"For as many of us as were baptized into Christ, were baptized into his death."

Jesus says,

"Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Being born again is indeed the gateway to Christ, but it is a result of our obedience, not the cause of it.

As the apostle Peter explains about the Holy Spirit, it is granted AFTER one obeys, not before.

Acts 5:32
"32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

The gift of the Holy Spirit comes after one obeys as was what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost. Any doctrine that preaches otherwise is false and contradictory to what the apostles taught.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
That's not what Paul said nor is it what Jesus said. Nobody gets IN to Christ without being born again. And to be born again, BOTH Jesus and Paul explains is a result of water and the Spirit.

As Paul says,

"For as many of us as were baptized into Christ, were baptized into his death."

Jesus says,

"Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Being born again is indeed the gateway to Christ, but it is a result of our obedience, not the cause of it.

As the apostle Peter explains about the Holy Spirit, it is granted AFTER one obeys, not before.

Acts 5:32
"32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

The gift of the Holy Spirit comes after one obeys as was what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost. Any doctrine that preaches otherwise is false and contradictory to what the apostles taught.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 (KJV 1900)

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:13 (KJV 1900)

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Der Alter said:
Scripture where mankind had free will in the OT but not in the NT?

The have it in both covenants. But it doesn't work in the New.
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17 (KJV 1900)
Free will turns grace into law nullifying grace.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
So your evidence comes from a man? Not scripture? Even the quote has no scriptural evidence attached.

Where is your evidence I ask for a 3rd time. Scripture. Not a mans quotes. Not your opinion. Where is your scriptural defense?

You will see the same scriptures differently than me = dead end.

zoidar · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
Free will means all people have partial salvation. And all they must do is provide what’s needed to complete it. So different groups fill in the blanks with different levels of obedience to complete the task. They are half saved having free will. And fully saved by choosing to obey.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

As Martin Luther said; "First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.”

He continues; “For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved." Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

So in the end people have sight faith, trusting in tangible items keen to the senses. But only few have faith sight where they trust in Christ alone to save them.

You seem to put a lot of time and energy into this, maybe you should just let it go? And focus on serving Christ who you love?

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
Before we can continue a discussion on this, we have to establish the basic premises that are solid. There isn't any such thing as partial salvation. Free will cannot establish something that doesn't exist.

And your scripture there does not say it isn't possible to commit sin. It is saying that a person who takes it seriously will never decide to sin. God has never in history prevented man from sinning either by command or magic powers.

Partial salvation does not exist. Free will says it does. How? Free will is part of salvation. So when people claim is before salvation they are logically claiming they ar 1/2 saved buy to no avail unless they choose to close the deal.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

zoidar said:
You seem put a lot of time and energy into this, maybe you should just let it go? And focus on serving Christ who you love?

How can you serve Christ and let others believe in themselves for salvation instead of Christ?

rnmomof7 · Dec 14, 2019

bling said:
Every place it says: “Whosoever”, Every time people do what God does not desire them to do, with a free will offering, being held accountable and with the praise that comes from doing right.

Whosoever does not support "free will"

John 1:12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

The Father elects... the Son saves those the Father elects

John 6:37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father.
65Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."

Are you saying: We have no faith and/or we do not have to express our faith to be saved?
Are you saying Christians do have free will?

Faith is a. gift of God.. it is not Dorothy clicking her heels together and wanting to go home

Free will choices are not always “righteous” and “unrighteous” choices, but can be between two selfish choices.
OK?

?

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 14, 2019

Redwingfan9 said:
To seek is to will which is to control your own salvation

Good first steps ! Congratulations !

zoidar · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
How can you serve Christ and let others believe in themselves for salvation instead of Christ?

... ask Christ.

rnmomof7 · Dec 14, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
That's not what Paul said nor is it what Jesus said. Nobody gets IN to Christ without being born again. And to be born again, BOTH Jesus and Paul explains is a result of water and the Spirit.

As Paul says,

"For as many of us as were baptized into Christ, were baptized into his death."

Jesus says,

"Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Being born again is indeed the gateway to Christ, but it is a result of our obedience, not the cause of it.

As the apostle Peter explains about the Holy Spirit, it is granted AFTER one obeys, not before.

Acts 5:32
"32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

The gift of the Holy Spirit comes after one obeys as was what Peter taught on the day of Pentecost. Any doctrine that preaches otherwise is false and contradictory to what the apostles taught.

I guess I don't see free will in any of those verses

Acts2:38 · Dec 14, 2019

Dave L said:
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 (KJV 1900)

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:13 (KJV 1900)

Is that your scriptural defense? Alright, lets break it down then.

In order of appearance:

#1- The natural man are those who dont believe or dont follow God ie the unsaved. This does not defend your stance but strengthens the free will/ choice.

#2- This verse also does not prove your stance. It merely shows that those unsaved or refuse to believe are doomed.

#3- John 3:3 and 5 explicitly state that any man could be saved so long as they do what is required.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This implies ALL persons who wish to obey the gospel in a condition that needs to be met.

#4 - By cherry picking scripture, you clearly missed verse 12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So by missing that important point you twisted the meaning of verse 13.

And thus you have no defense if that is all you have.

Dave L said:
You will see the same scriptures differently than me = dead end.

Wrong. It merely takes reading comprehension and the understanding of context and grammar. How else would the scriptures be told to so many and there be many saved?

The bible warns about those who twist scriptures. That means one of us is wrong. It means someone is twisting scripture.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

zoidar said:
... ask Christ.

Unless born again they can't discern Christ in truth.

Dave L · Dec 14, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
Is that your scriptural defense? Alright, lets break it down then.

In order of appearance:

#1- The natural man are those who dont believe or dont follow God ie the unsaved. This does not defend your stance but strengthens the free will/ choice.

#2- This verse also does not prove your stance. It merely shows that those unsaved or refuse to believe are doomed.

#3- John 3:3 and 5 explicitly state that any man could be saved so long as they do what is required.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

This implies ALL persons who wish to obey the gospel in a condition that needs to be met.

#4 - By cherry picking scripture, you clearly missed verse 12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So by missing that important point you twisted the meaning of verse 13.

And thus you have no defense if that is all you have.

Wrong. It merely takes reading comprehension and the understanding of context and grammar. How else would the scriptures be told to so many and there be many saved?

The bible warns about those who twist scriptures. That means one of us is wrong. It means someone is twisting scripture.

Free will chooses and idol unless born again when the will becomes free.

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

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