How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ;

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Dave L

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Hello Dave! Can you give us some scripture that supports the OP?

Keep it short and to the point if possible, thanks.
Free will works with law. The law holds people responsible because they have free will. This was true in the OT and in everyday life.

The gospel is not law. But people think it is and turn it into law when they strap conditions to salvation. But it then becomes a false gospel that cannot save. As Paul says if the law could save you wouldn't need the gospel. I have lots more but this is the basics.
 
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bling

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Where do we find free will in the scripture?
Every place it says: “Whosoever”, Every time people do what God does not desire them to do, with a free will offering, being held accountable and with the praise that comes from doing right.
We are saved by HIS faith not ours ..
Are you saying: We have no faith and/or we do not have to express our faith to be saved?
Are you saying Christians do have free will?

Free will choices are not always “righteous” and “unrighteous” choices, but can be between two selfish choices.
Our choices are limited by what is available to us..
OK?
 
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Der Alte

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Free will is one of Satan's biggest deceptions. You don't need salvation with free will. Just choose a different path like Pelagius.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
 
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bling

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It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can discern and believe in Christ.
I do not really have a problem with that, since the nonbeliever only has to selfishly be willing to humbly accept pure unconditional charity to be showered with gifts.
 
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Dave L

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I do not really have a problem with that, since the nonbeliever only has to selfishly be willing to humbly accept pure unconditional charity to be showered with gifts.
The unbeliever cannot discern the true Christ unless Christ reveals himself.
 
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His student

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Free will does not exist in the unsaved. It takes grace to save them so they can have a free will. Those who claim free will are claiming to have part of salvation. But they must take up the slack through obedience or works. Pelagius taught this and was condemned as a heretic by the council of Ephesus in 431.
Although Christ atoned for the sins of the world some 2000 years ago and still no one is saved until exercising saving faith according to the scriptures, Pelagius never mentioned "partial salvation" that I know of.

Pelagius taught that the will of even fallen men, as created with its abilities by God, is sufficient to live a sinless life, although he believed God's grace assisted every good work. Pelagianism has come to be identified with a view not taught by Pelagius and denied by him that human beings can earn salvation by their own efforts.

Modern proponents of free will (Arminians if you will) generally believe no such thing.
 
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Dave L

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Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
OT Law was based on free will. The NT is based on grace, not law. Free will aimed at the NT produces a false gospel that cannot save.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Free will means all people have partial salvation.

Partial? No offense but this has not only no scriptural basis, it doesn't make logical sense. Jesus taught that there were two possibilities for us on the 'Last Day' or day of Judgement.

1. Live in paradise with Jesus.
2. Be cast into the lake of fire.

There is no in between option. There is no such thing as partial salvation.

Whether or not you have free will has no bearing on this according to what Jesus laid out. You've started off with a false premise and thus the rest of the line of your conclusions can't be drawn. The starting point is already in error.

But it always results in people trusting in themselves for salvation. God only opening heaven’s doors to those who complete the task.

Ephesians pretty much destroys this idea. The works that God prepared for us (from before the foundation of the world) to walk in were his, not ours. The works we do in response to God's calling is "not of yourselves." That doesn't mean we are not doing the work, it means we can't invent any work that would save us. Thus, what we have to do is trust that he delivered all of the information required that we might be saved.

When Cornelius spoke first to Peter, he was expecting "words," because that is what the angel told him. It was also what Peter was commanded to deliver. And what he did then was to go and deliver those words, at which point Cornelius obeyed with his household.

But this destroys faith in Christ as savior. Free will is a walk by sight trust in yourself for salvation based on rules you fulfill. So trust is always in self who fulfills them.

Free will is merely the ability to freely make choices without any coercion. It is self-evident that we have free will and can chose to believe. Were this not the case, then God wouldn't have delivered commands to anyone. He would have merely made them do his bidding. I don't think anyone doubts that he has the power to do that.

But without free will, people have to look for a power beyond themselves to save. Only when they come to the end of themselves with nothing more they can do, will Christ become their only focus of faith.

Even with free will, we would have no power to save ourselves. Free will does not negate the power of God. It is proof of the power of God.
As Martin Luther said; "First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only.”

Luther would be here refuting himself when he uses the words "self-deploring and despairing", if in fact this is his evidence for a lack of free will. But I am not sure this is what he is doing. He asserts that a person's humility is from his own conscience and not coercion. A person could only humble himself if he has a free mind with which to come by that determination. If he hasn't a free mind, then there is some external cause for this humility which would then negate the idea that he humbles himself. If an external force has humbled him, he isn't humbled at all, he is forced into submission.

He continues; “For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved." Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

There is a difference between obeying a command from God which results in one's salvation, and thinking that one can invent his own criteria. Personally, I think Luther is right here. I think it is the modern day reader who misuses these words to claim it is proof of any lack of free will. You can be humble, realizing that you are not the author of your own salvation, and still do what is required to achieve that salvation which you had no power to accomplish. The distinction has to be made between what a man can do and what God can do. Man couldn't provide a sacrifice good enough to achieve remission of sins for the whole world. But he can obey the commands which are said to accomplish this remission in himself. In fact Ephesians 2:10 says that it is exactly why God created us.

So in the end people have sight faith, trusting in tangible items keen to the senses. But only few have faith sight where they trust in Christ alone to save them.

God gave us the tangible things. He made sure they were written down because he wanted us to have the knowledge. Having that knowledge does not destroy faith, it is the very basis of our faith. One cannot believe anything in particular without first getting the information as to what that belief entails. Believing what God told us IS ITSELF FAITH. It isn't negated by any doctrine of man.

I'm convinced that Jesus preached free will. What does he ask of us?

Luke 14:28
"And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple. 28 Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? 29 Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him,…"

Whose cross is being carried here and who is it that is expected to carry it to the end? God? Who is it that is told he must consider everything involved? If Jesus EVER taught that God was going to carry your cross for you, I haven't seen it. Jesus clearly shows us that we have our own crosses we must carry. So it's a joint endeavor which is of course not possible without him. But it doesn't ONLY involve him as even Martin Luther points out.

I think that Luther was correct in what you've quoted. I just don't think it means what you are saying it means and what many modern readers think.
 
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Dave L

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Although Christ atoned for the sins of the world some 2000 years ago and still no one is saved until exercising saving faith according to the scriptures, Pelagius never mentioned "partial salvation" that I know of.

Pelagius taught that the will of even fallen men, as created with its abilities by God, is sufficient to live a sinless life, although he believed God's grace assisted every good work. Pelagianism has come to be identified with a view not taught by Pelagius and denied by him that human beings can earn salvation by their own efforts.

Modern proponents of free will (Arminians if you will) generally believe no such thing.
Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.
 
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Dave L

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Partial? No offense but this has not only no scriptural basis, it doesn't make logical sense. Jesus taught that there were two possibilities for us on the 'Last Day' or day of Judgement.

1. Live in paradise with Jesus.
2. Be cast into the lake of fire.

There is no in between option. There is no such thing as partial salvation.

Whether or not you have free will has no bearing on this according to what Jesus laid out. You've started off with a false premise and thus the rest of the line of your conclusions can't be drawn. The starting point is already in error.



Ephesians pretty much destroys this idea. The works that God prepared for us (from before the foundation of the world) to walk in were his, not ours. The works we do in response to God's calling is "not of yourselves." That doesn't mean we are not doing the work, it means we can't invent any work that would save us. Thus, what we have to do is trust that he delivered all of the information required that we might be saved.

When Cornelius spoke first to Peter, he was expecting "words," because that is what the angel told him. It was also what Peter was commanded to deliver. And what he did then was to go and deliver those words, at which point Cornelius obeyed with his household.



Free will is merely the ability to freely make choices without any coercion. It is self-evident that we have free will and can chose to believe. Were this not the case, then God wouldn't have delivered commands to anyone. He would have merely made them do his bidding. I don't think anyone doubts that he has the power to do that.



Even with free will, we would have no power to save ourselves. Free will does not negate the power of God. It is proof of the power of God.


Luther would be here refuting himself when he uses the phrase "self-humbled", if in fact this is his evidence for a lack of free will. But I am not sure this is what he is doing. He asserts that a person's humility is from his own conscience and not coercion. A person could only humble himself if he has a free mind with which to come by that determination. If he hasn't a free mind, then there is some external cause for this humility which would then negate the idea that he humbles himself. If an external force has humbled him, he isn't humbled at all, he is forced into submission.



There is a difference between obeying a command from God which results in one's salvation, and thinking that one can invent his own criteria. Personally, I think Luther is right here. I think it is the modern day reader who misuses these words to claim it is proof of any lack of free will. You can be humble, realizing that you are not the author of your own salvation, and still do what is required to achieve that salvation which you had no power to accomplish. The distinction has to be made between what a man can do and what God can do. Man couldn't provide a sacrifice good enough to achieve remission of sins for the whole world. But he can obey the commands which are said to accomplish this remission in himself. In fact Ephesians 2:10 says that it is exactly why God created us.



God gave us the tangible things. He made sure they were written down because he wanted us to have the knowledge. Having that knowledge does not destroy faith, it is the very basis of our faith. One cannot believe anything in particular without first getting the information as to what that belief entails. Believing what God told us IS ITSELF FAITH. It isn't negated by any doctrine of man.

I'm convinced that Jesus preached free will. What does he ask of us?

Luke 14:28
"And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple. 28 Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? 29 Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him,…"

Whose cross is being carried here and who is it that is expected to carry it to the end? God? Who is it that is told he must consider everything involved? If Jesus EVER taught that God was going to carry your cross for you, I haven't seen it. Jesus clearly shows us that we have our own crosses we must carry. So it's a joint endeavor which is of course not possible without him. But it doesn't ONLY involve him as even Martin Luther points out.

I think that Luther was correct in what you've quoted. I just don't think it means what you are saying it means and what many modern readers think.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
This is salvation by works. John said;
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)
 
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Dave L

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OK, not needed to accept pure undeserved charity from God.
You can't. If so, you are the savior. God saves people when they are the most blind and hate anything having to do with righteousness.
 
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Charlie24

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Free will works with law. The law holds people responsible because they have free will. This was true in the OT and in everyday life.

The gospel is not law. But people think it is and turn it into law when they strap conditions to salvation. But it then becomes a false gospel that cannot save. As Paul says if the law could save you wouldn't need the gospel. I have lots more but this is the basics.
There is life in the Law but no one could or can keep the Law, therefore Christ came to keep the Law for us that whosoever will can keep the Law through Him by faith in what He did at Calvary.

If you accept Christ you are Free from the Law! You are now living in Grace.
 
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His student

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Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.
And I can and do see how you can twist that into your false belief that people are saved before they believe - as you so often teach here in the forum.
 
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Acts2:38

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Free will works with law. The law holds people responsible because they have free will. This was true in the OT and in everyday life.

The gospel is not law. But people think it is and turn it into law when they strap conditions to salvation. But it then becomes a false gospel that cannot save. As Paul says if the law could save you wouldn't need the gospel. I have lots more but this is the basics.

Please dont avoid Charlie's Post. Post up scripture that defends your belief. Not your opinions from man made beliefs.

I'll start with the most well know scripture in the world lately.

John 3:16

Notice the "whosoever believes". Yeah... that means anyone and everyone that chooses to believe.

Now your turn.

Hello Dave! Can you give us some scripture that supports the OP?

Keep it short and to the point if possible, thanks.
 
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Dave L

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Please dont avoid Charlie's Post. Post up scripture that defends your belief. Not your opinions from man made beliefs.

I'll start with the most well know scripture in the world lately.

John 3:16

Notice the "whosoever believes". Yeah... that means anyone and everyone that chooses to believe.

Now your turn.
Free will sees the scriptures other than grace does. So I chose to layout my reasoning. We'll wear ourselves out debating scripture.
 
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Dave L

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And I can and do see how you can twist that into your false belief that people are saved before they believe - as you so often teach here in the forum.
Eternal life has no end or beginning. God always saw believers as saved.
 
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Acts2:38

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Free will sees the scriptures other than grace does. So I chose to layout my reasoning. We'll wear ourselves out debating scripture.

I disagree. Scripture is the only source of authority. We also have reading comprehension and grammar guidelines in language. There is only one possible answer.

Your opinion does not matter, only what scripture states. where is your evidence?

Here is another verse I am giving you, and you still have yet to provide much at all.

2 Peter 3:9
 
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bling

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You can't. If so, you are the savior. God saves people when they are the most blind and hate anything having to do with righteousness.
A soldier in battle (soldiers of satan as nonbeliever fighting their enemy God) can come to his/her senses and see they got themselves starving to death in a pigsty (like the prodigal son) the choice is to be macho, pay the piper, take the punishment you fully deserve or surrender to your enemy even though you still can be hating god at the time, you are just willing to accept undeserved charity from your enemy, an enemy which you know has the right to torture you to death for your war crimes. You are not keeping God from torturing you to death by surrendering, but you are willing to humbly accept His pure undeserved charity.
 
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