Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

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grandvizier1006

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I think this discussion is going wrong, as slander and wrongfully judging are sins. And I don't want to give extra opportunity to do that to any. Best to go to 1rst John chapter 1 and apply what's there.

God bless you all. We have guests arriving in a minute. Have a good evening!
I’m sorry if I seem like I’m slandering or judging anyone. I was just trying to explain that I would not be comfortable in specific denominations.

I actually have a party I need to go to...I just like being introspective, as a lot is on my mind lately.
 
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redleghunter

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Today's not at our church. Maybe you should be more cautious.

But do you acknowledge on the other hand that there are people that sin in your church?

I'm expecting the real rate over a year is 99-100%

And, just in case there is any ELCA church near you, you could you find out in person what our services are like. That'd be great.
I’m sure your church may reject the official ECLA stand on same sex marriage. Only Lutherans around here are LCMS. I did attend services there a few times when my son was in their school. My twin godchildren were baptized there as well.
 
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hedrick

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Yes their position is quite clear:

[6] Homosexual sex doesn't violate Jesus' principles of unconditional love and forgiveness any more than heterosexual sex does. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals deceive and manipulate each other, both have committed long term relationships, and both engage in prostitution, fornication and adultery. Using Jesus' ethic, heterosexual sex is moral when it involves unconditional love, when it is free from deceit and manipulation and when any resulting children are loved and cared for. Using that ethic, homosexual sex is also moral under the same circumstances. There is no reason to believe that homosexuals as a class are any more deceitful and manipulative than heterosexuals are. Deceit, manipulation and self interest are part of everyone's nature.


The Church and Homosexuality
That quote is from a journal article that expresses the authors position. At the time it was written the ELCA prohibited ordination of gays. They don’t prohibit it now, so it is possible that there is an official statement similar to this, but this one isn’t a policy.
 
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thecolorsblend

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It would seem to me that we are past a certain point of no return regarding church policy and direction. While I could go into the details about how our seminaries are overrun with these ideologies, I think that's a different discussion and objective. What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.

So, brainstorming on this as of yesterday, I wonder what the community would think or say if a church sprang up with the following mission statement:

We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire to learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.

While this may sound harsh to many, is this what is really needed to regain holiness within our churches? Should we go back to expulsions as instructed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, and only readmit under the evidence of sincere repentance.

It would seem to me that inclusive Christianity is becoming so inclusive they'd openly invite the devil in if he weren't already there.

Or...are most churches now country clubs and simple self-help groups?
I realize that we shouldn't take pleasure in other people's misfortunes. But the fact is that these worldly communities tend to decline very quickly. The ones that embrace everything except sound doctrine shrivel up in short order.

It's good to see those signaly, "inclusive" communities humbled. They chose the world instead of the cross; this is what they deserve.
 
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hedrick

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What does seem to be the case is that fundamentalism, even in basic forms such as biblical inerrancy, have been cast aside to ensure that churches are accepted by the world, bolster their member numbers simply by inviting the world in and telling them exactly what they'd rather hear than what Scripture states.
That's just silly. Our leaders are well aware that our positions don't bolster membership. If a church wants to be popular, it should pander to the right wing. We follow what we believe is Christ's direction, based on what Scripture actually says. We are well aware of the cost of doing so.
 
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Halbhh

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a denomination that endorses homosexuality.
To my knowledge we do not. Because I think by the word 'homosexuality' you mean the action that is a sin -- sodomy intercourse. (as in Lev chapter 18 and 1 Cor chapter 6 and Romans chapter 1) And to my knowledge that isn't endorsed in my current church. (it would be a slander for anyone to suggest or claim I endorse it also btw)

But to make sense of our attitude it is crucial to point out that we do teach that all people are sinners -- still, even as they are being changed over time for the better -- and we don't single out some people to condemn and spend time on that, as if other people don't sin....

See? We don't think that sexual sin B is somehow worse than sexual sin A.... Or that non sexual sin R3 is somehow ok, while sins A and B aren't. Rather, they are all wrong. Everyone one of them.

And also, we don't say sin is ok in any fashion.

We say that we should confess it, and not pretend to ourselves we have none.

That's so crucial.

We really do seem to think that all people (everywhere in mortal bodies) sin, that's the belief here in this church -- and therefore we believe that all need to confess in an ongoing way. So far as I understand.

We in fact have confession as a part of the service.

And that seems correct to me, but if someone doesn't agree, that's such a serious topic that it would belong in its own thread, instead of this one, since it's weighty and crucial.
 
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Elisha's Bear

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For example, I've heard people sometimes say Jesus never had stance on homosexual marriage. But that's not true. Rather than highlight the wrong behavior, Jesus Highlighted the correct behavior. He defined marriage between one man and one woman by reaffirming what was already written (Matt 19). He could have said same-sex marriage is bad in some way, but instead He talked about what was good.
At the risk of diverging from the topic, I sympathize with and appreciate your position, but I think what often keeps us from productive discourse with each other is the absence of true candor. To claim that "Jesus had a stance on homosexual marriage" simply is not accurate at all. Words (like "stance") imply things--sometimes very strongly.

We often paint homosexuality as the direct opposite of heterosexuality. But it really isn't. It's the same, in a sense, as any other sin in that:

Actually, there is righteousness, and then there's everything else.

There is an obvious limitation on the Bible's ability to enumerate (or have a stance upon, if you will) every possibility of that which is at variance with virtue. To me, this suggests that there must be ample illustration of that which is virtuous to provide comprehensive and sufficient guidance for appropriate behavior.

In short, we need not feel obligated to produce a definite Biblical position upon everything which arises and appears to be unholy. To do so is to tempt ourselves to misrepresent what we do have that is sure.

Genuine marriage is a holy union between one male and one female member of the human race. Anything that is presented as a suitable substitute for the genuine is a counterfeit. Now the most effective counterfeit is the one that most closely resembles the genuine. The human race was not yet degenerate enough in the time of Christ for homosexual marriage to serve as an effective counterfeit. Today, the image of God in man has been so minimalized and corrupted that society has begun to accept it. Homosexual marriage was a non-issue in antiquity. People who engaged in homosexual activity had no desire to be married because they knew there was no hope of enjoying the public fringe benefits of marriage for them. Private relations sufficed for them. Of course it is reasonable to assume that some might have wished they could be accepted as a sacred union in society, but reality relegated this notion to mere fantasy.

To say that Christ had a distinct position on homosexual marriage is like saying that he had a distinct position on any and all other counterfeits, which simply is not true. There is righteousness and there is everything else. Corruption is not the opposite of virtue. This would make it an equal, in a sense. We are susceptible to this viewpoint because in the world, "everything else" appears to bear sway.

But in God's universe, or the entire creation, righteousness is the rule, not the exception. We, along with the disease of sin, are quarantined for the time being. Satan's efforts are bound to this sphere, and soon Christ will come to reclaim and restore what is rightfully His since the blessed Calvary event. God gave Adam dominion over the earth. Satan usurped it in Eden. Christ recovered it at Calvary. And He will fully establish it at His second coming. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 
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redleghunter

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That quote is from a journal article that expresses the authors position. At the time it was written the ELCA prohibited ordination of gays. They don’t prohibit it now, so it is possible that there is an official statement similar to this, but this one isn’t a policy.
Pages 17-21 address it if this is the latest policy:

http://download.elca.org/ELCA Resou...82.1547647289.1576304183-468923225.1550382291

They give the various views but allow anyone of the views to be enforced.
 
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topher694

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At the risk of diverging from the topic, I sympathize with and appreciate your position, but I think what often keeps us from productive discourse with each other is the absence of true candor. To claim that "Jesus had a stance on homosexual marriage" simply is not accurate at all. Words (like "stance") imply things--sometimes very strongly.

We often paint homosexuality as the direct opposite of heterosexuality. But it really isn't. It's the same, in a sense, as any other sin in that:

Actually, there is righteousness, and then there's everything else.

There is an obvious limitation on the Bible's ability to enumerate (or have a stance upon, if you will) every possibility of that which is at variance with virtue. To me, this suggests that there must be ample illustration of that which is virtuous to provide comprehensive and sufficient guidance for appropriate behavior.

In short, we need not feel obligated to produce a definite Biblical position upon everything which arises and appears to be unholy. To do so is to tempt ourselves to misrepresent what we do have that is sure.

Genuine marriage is a holy union between one male and one female member of the human race. Anything that is presented as a suitable substitute for the genuine is a counterfeit. Now the most effective counterfeit is the one that most closely resembles the genuine. The human race was not yet degenerate enough in the time of Christ for homosexual marriage to serve as an effective counterfeit. Today, the image of God in man has been so minimalized and corrupted that society has begun to accept it. Homosexual marriage was a non-issue in antiquity. People who engaged in homosexual activity had no desire to be married because they knew there was no hope of enjoying the public fringe benefits of marriage for them. Private relations sufficed for them. Of course it is reasonable to assume that some might have wished they could be accepted as a sacred union in society, but reality relegated this notion to mere fantasy.

To say that Christ had a distinct position on homosexual marriage is like saying that he had a distinct position on any and all other counterfeits, which simply is not true. There is righteousness and there is everything else. Corruption is not the opposite of virtue. This would make it an equal, in a sense. We are susceptible to this viewpoint because in the world, "everything else" appears to bear sway.

But in God's universe, or the entire creation, righteousness is the rule, not the exception. We, along with the disease of sin, are quarantined for the time being. Satan's efforts are bound to this sphere, and soon Christ will come to reclaim and restore what is rightfully His since the blessed Calvary event. God gave Adam dominion over the earth. Satan usurped it in Eden. Christ recovered it at Calvary. And He will fully establish it at His second coming. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Yeah, you are diverging from the topic (but so has everyone else at this point), and reading far more into word choice than necessary.

Additionally, you are actually just reaffirming my point. In fact in many ways I like how you said it better. More often than not Jesus' "stance" on any issue was to affirm the correct behavior rather than call out the incorrect. In affirming the correct He automatically addresses all other counterfeits by default without having to list off all the incorrect ones (which realistically wouldn't be possible anyway). The way you recognize a counterfeit is by being extremely familiar with the authentic. It is a far more efficient and effective approach, which was what I was getting at in the first place. The point was the approach Jesus used, the marriage part was just a quick illustration.
 
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hedrick

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We exist and gather, in the Name of God, to adhere to biblical principles set forth by Jesus Christ and the Apostles. In doing so, we reject all invitation to the world, its evils and those who seek to work it among the People of God (2 Samuel 23:6, 1 Corinthians 5, James 1:26-27). Therefore, we invite only those who consider themselves to be actively Called, possessing of righteous desire to learn and be healed from their sins, who seek repentance and the Face of the Lord, and those reborn of Spirit and in Christ (1 Chronicles 16:11, Psalm 27:8, Hosea 5:15, Luke 5:32, John 3:1-20). Those who have no desire to seek God, who have no intention of repentance, may request prayer for a new heart (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31) from our pastor, but should know that this Place is Holy Ground, and therefore we reject any permit for evil to dwell within the House of the Lord.
I'm a bit unclear just what the OP thinks inclusive Christianity is. Most churches that call themselves inclusive do reject evil and call for repentance. The term "inclusive" doesn't mean that we accept evil. It means that we accept people of faith from any race, gender or sexual orientation. We actually have quite definite understandings of what good and evil are, based on Christ. From my point of view something like the quoted policy is fine in principle. The main problem is that if we really tried to enforce that policy it would mean banning anyone who voted for Trump. Most of us aren't willing to go that far. That may, in fact, by compromising with the world as you suggest. But I'm not sure we really want to base church membership on politics and related social ideology. That does make us less pure than conservative churches, which tend to enforce their (misguided, in my view) concept of what is good more narrowly.
 
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hedrick

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Albion

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I'm not sure if the following was part of what went into the OP. I also saw that there was something else online about drag queen ministers, but this article refers to an event that was the subject of a news report that, coincidentally, I saw only this morning while I was having my coffee.

ELCA Synod Council Calls Transgender Pastor
 
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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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redleghunter

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I'm starting to have more sympathy for Catholics.
Having been raised in a devout Irish Catholic family and educated in her schools, I have to say the Roman Catholic Church is not ambiguous on their standing on marriage. It is clearly articulated in her catechism, CCD, adult catechism training and sacraments including the pre-marriage counseling. I had to read 17 pages of the ECLA document on human sexuality to finally get to their standing on what constitutes a Christian marriage. And even reading that portion they leave it up to the individual conscience.
 
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Halbhh

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Did what I posted earlier misrepresent the ECLA?

Combating Inclusive/Progressive Christianity

It came from the ECLA site and the pages in question were pages 17-21.
You wrote just now the phrasing "the" ELCA site. That would be interesting and new to me (either way) about whether there is a "the" site, instead of just another of many sites, but will investigate, which might take a while. Thanks.

Just since only some Lutherans here might know it already, I'll repeat again that I don't personally consider the separation between the LCMS and ELCA to be valid. (though of course I'm sure many do!) I'm unsure whether my attitude in that is a majority attitude of something like a silent majority, or instead a minority attitude (but not a minority of only a few I'd bet, but instead more like hundreds of thousands at minimum I'd bet) It could easily be a majority attitude, though I'm sure also that many (a large percentage) simply don't care, and would attended either grouping without a 2nd thought.

Also, I don't consider the separations in other denominations to be valid either. Yours, mine, theirs, etc.

Again, though I've probably repeated it too often, just since it's meaningful here, I expect every church to always have errors in it, after the days of the early church.
 
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redleghunter

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You wrote just now the phrasing "the" ELCA site. That would be interesting and new to me (either way) about whether there is a "the" site, instead of just another of many sites, but will investigate, which might take a while. Thanks.

Just since only some Lutherans here might know it already, I'll repeat again that I don't personally consider the separation between the LCMS and ELCA to be valid. (though of course I'm sure many do!) I'm unsure whether my attitude in that is a majority attitude of something like a silent majority, or instead a minority attitude (but not a minority of only a few I'd bet, but instead more like hundreds of thousands at minimum I'd bet) It could easily be a majority attitude, though I'm sure also that many (a large percentage) simply don't care, and would attended either grouping without a 2nd thought.

Also, I don't consider the separations in other denominations to be valid either. Yours, mine, theirs, etc.

Again, though I've probably repeated it too often, just since it's meaningful here, I expect every church to always have errors in it, after the days of the early church.
It did come from ECLA.org you may want to visit the site and see the nice message your presiding bishop The Rev. Elizabeth A. Eaton has for your faith community on the Arab-Israeli conflict:


Presiding bishop statement on Israeli civilian settlements



On the link I provided for human sexuality you will also down page find other church statements of faith.

Human Sexuality
 
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