Three days and three nights in heart of earth?

prodromos · Dec 13, 2019

His student said:
Would that every new Christian would take the time to study doctrines for themselves rather than simply swallowing the pabulum they are fed through the traditions of a particular church as new Christians.

Would that people would stop making the false assumption that we haven't taken the time to study and come to our own conclusions.

His student · Dec 13, 2019

Der Alter said:
Posted previously in this thread
All four gospels agree that Jesus was Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation. Then as now the Greek word for the day we call Friday is paraskeue, which does mean preparation.
The first day of unleavened bread is never called a Sabbath in the OT. It is called עצרת/atzereth, solemn assembly. It is similar to a sabbath but differs in one way, the preparation and cooking of food is specifically permitted.

Exo 12:15-16
(15) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; howbeit the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses; for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
(16) And in the first day there shall be to you a holy convocation, and in the seventh day a holy convocation; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you.
LXX Exo 12:16 And the first day shall be called holy, and the seventh day shall be a holy convocation to you: ye shall do no servile work on them, only as many things as will necessarily be done by every soul, this only shall be done by you.
That being true, neither 1st nor 7th ULB requires a preparation day as does the weekly Sabbath. There was only one preparation day and one Sabbath in passion week.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap. LXVII
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
...
Jewish Encyclopedia - DAY
In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes: (a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).E. G. H. M. F.
Jewish Encyclopedia online

Thank you for the re-post. Anything new to offer?

ralliann · Dec 13, 2019

oops double post

ralliann · Dec 13, 2019

DennisTate said:
For the record...... because the Gentile Christian church became anti-Semitic and astoundingly ignorant of the fact that the early church was Jewish......…

The above is inaccurate. There was already a controversy early on in the Church. Nobody disputed that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday.
A copy and paste article concerning the
Historical dispute.....Author: Ralph Orr
"Furthermore, none of the Quartodecimans claimed that it was wrong to celebrate Jesus’ resurrection. To the contrary, the evidence indicates that both Polycarp and Anicetus celebrated Jesus’ resurrection annually. Polycarp’s claim seems to have been that the best day to do so was on Nisan 14. Anicetus argued for Sunday.

What is more intriguing for us is that Polycarp claimed his practice came from the apostle John. In other words, the practice of celebrating Jesus’ resurrection on Nisan 14 was an apostolic practice, at least for the apostle John. His argument was not so much scriptural as it was traditional.

Eusebius, in his Ecclesiastical History, chapters 23 to 25, makes it plain that the Quartodeciman controversy involved in part when to celebrate Jesus’ resurrection. He tells us that the churches in Asia Minor, focusing on the crucifixion as of primary importance, argued for Nisan 14 as the day to commemorate the entire story of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. The church at Rome, focusing on the resurrection, argued that there was no need to depend on the Jewish calendar and that Sunday was the most appropriate day of all.

Not about day of Jesus’ resurrection
No one in the Quartodeciman controversy argued over the actual day of the resurrection. This was not in dispute. When Rome said they memorialized the resurrection on Sunday, neither Polycarp nor anyone else argued that the resurrection wasn’t on Sunday. The argument was not over the day of Jesus’ resurrection, but over what day was most appropriate to commemorate it annually."

It historically had to do with traditions handed down. It was not based upon the kind of arguments you are all making.

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. {ordinances: or, traditions }

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Each were claiming to follow the traditions handed down to
them from the Apostles.....

To speculate as to how the traditions could differ is not to awful difficult. Jews being circumcised and living under the rule of the Pharisees probably did celebrate on Nisan 14. Gentiles on the other hand being uncircumcised could not eat the Passover. That, not even legal for them to eat the Passover would not do so, nor give any appearance of doing so.

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Especially considering Christian Gentiles in keeping with the status of "God fearing Gentiles" as accepted in the synagogues would have kept that rule. But eventually like the Jew's were kicked out of the synagogues, losing their status of exemption from Idol's, which Jews enjoyed under Roman law. Then Christianity for Jew or Gentile became illegal as a result.

His student · Dec 13, 2019

prodromos said:
Would that people would stop making the false assumption that we haven't taken the time to study and come to our own conclusions.

What do you mean "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Are you one of the new Christians I referred to in my post or have you been a Christian for some time?

Either way I made no such assumption about you.

Der Alte · Dec 13, 2019

His student said:
Thank you for the re-post. Anything new to offer?

Is there something missing from my post? I'm amenable to additional information which will support my post.

PaulCyp1 · Dec 13, 2019

The scriptures don't say He remained buried for three d ays and three nights. It says He rose from the dead "on the third day" Crucified on the first day, dead in the tomb the second day, rose from the dead the third day.

JacksBratt · Dec 13, 2019

DennisTate said:
For the record...... because the Gentile Christian church became anti-Semitic and astoundingly ignorant of the fact that the early church was Jewish......... we lost track of the fact that the annual Sabbath of the First Day of Unleavened Bread can occur on a Thursday.........
making for a Wednesday crucifixion........

a burial late Wednesday and a resurrection three days and three nights later..... and then by the morning of the First Day of the Week Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is already risen....... and I am sure...... exactly seventy two hours from the time of his actual death or his burial...... depending on exactly what he meant by his being in the heart of the earth????

And by Thursday I don't mean from midnight to midnight, I mean from Wednesday at sunset to Thursday at sunset for the First Day of Unleavened Bread, (I read in 31 C. E.).

Leviticus 23:32
"It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath."

Did he mean from the second that his spirit actually left his body?

That sounds logical to me.

Or did he mean from the moment that his body would be placed in the tomb?

I suppose that that might make sense as well???

(I just began a discussion over in Spiritual Gifts and I think that this comment that I almost posted would have been inappropriate for that forum so I will begin this as a new discussion and poll):

Anyway... .my point is that once we know more information we will know that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus would not get all confused and by three days and three night mean two nights and one day!

Can you tell us more about the personality of Jesus?

You are correct. crucified on Friday never fits the biblical scripture. No matter how you spin it... There was another sabbath. It happened to fall in mid week. It is fact and it aligns with the scripture. Why do people fight it?

It's just like that radio show... "Now you know the rest of the story" and it all makes sense.

prodromos · Dec 13, 2019

JacksBratt said:
crucified on Friday never fits the biblical scripture.

Luke 24:13-21 doesn't fit otherwise.

buzuxi02 · Dec 14, 2019

Why in the world are people taking Jonah in the belly of the whale 3 days and nights literally for? Jesus clarified every time that it is on the third day he will rise. Stop making it complicated. The only full day he rested in the tomb was the Sabbath precisely because it was the Sabbath. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel from one time where Jesus mentions the sign of Jonah and the whale and forgetting everything else he said. Basing your entire narrative on one verse you pinpointed to try and make yourself look smart and innovating when your simply taking it too literally and is explained away dozens of times elsewhere.

dqhall · Dec 14, 2019

David Kent said:
That couldn't be c orfrect as the women set out for the tomb towards the end of the sabbath and when the got there Jesus was already risen. It dosn't say that Jesus rose at daybreak.

While in Israel I noticed the shops and restaurants were closed on Sabbath. Some were closed at about two in the afternoon Friday for people to go home and prepare for the Sabbath. Even though the Sabbath ended at sunset Saturday after the sun dipped below the horizon, the shops and restaurants did not reopen Saturday night. They reopened after the Sabbath, the next morning.

nolidad · Dec 14, 2019

Gup20 said:
Sarcasm is one of my gifts of the spirit.

Funny! I got that same gift!

David Kent · Dec 14, 2019

buzuxi02 said:
Why in the world are people taking Jonah in the belly of the whale 3 days and nights literally for? Jesus clarified every time that it is on the third day he will rise. Stop making it complicated. The only full day he rested in the tomb was the Sabbath precisely because it was the Sabbath. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel from one time where Jesus mentions the sign of Jonah and the whale and forgetting everything else he said. Basing your entire narrative on one verse you pinpointed to try and make yourself look smart and innovating when your simply taking it too literally and is explained away dozens of times elsewhere.

Not true, he also said "After three days." Mark 8:31 Matthew 27:63 and "In three days."

JacksBratt · Dec 14, 2019

buzuxi02 said:
Why in the world are people taking Jonah in the belly of the whale 3 days and nights literally for? Jesus clarified every time that it is on the third day he will rise. Stop making it complicated. The only full day he rested in the tomb was the Sabbath precisely because it was the Sabbath. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel from one time where Jesus mentions the sign of Jonah and the whale and forgetting everything else he said. Basing your entire narrative on one verse you pinpointed to try and make yourself look smart and innovating when your simply taking it too literally and is explained away dozens of times elsewhere.

You can believe what you believe... When someone puts the facts out there and you still want to twist scripture to fit your long term belief... That's your right.

Truth is funny.. it always... IS.. and it matters not what we believe.

Some day all will be revealed. Maranatha.

David Kent · Dec 14, 2019

His student said:
Also the scriptures don't say that the women set out for the tomb "toward the end of the sabbath". They say that they set out after the sabbath while it was still dark.

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Sorry I used the wrong words. I should have said: "In the end the Sabbath." I take that as twilight between Sabbath and first day. They arrived at the grave "while it was yet dark. I have no doubt that they would have set out as soon as the sabbath was over. Jesus' body was put in the grave at twilight, as the sabbath was approaching, and was raised exactly 72 hours later, at twilight. That satisfies all timings, In three days, On the third day, Three days and three nights and After three days.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2019

JacksBratt said:
You are correct. crucified on Friday never fits the biblical scripture. No matter how you spin it... There was another sabbath. It happened to fall in mid week. It is fact and it aligns with the scripture. Why do people fight it?
It's just like that radio show... "Now you know the rest of the story" and it all makes sense.

That is not correct. Where did this phantom "Sabbath" come from? How does a "Sabbath" get in the middle of the week? The only other event that occurred in passion week was the Passover and the first day of Unleavened bread, which are on the same day. Neither Passover nor 1 ULB is a Sabbath. 1/7 ULB is a Holy convocation.

Exodus 12:15-16
(15) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
(16) And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
LXX Exo 12:16
(16) And the first day shall be called holy, and the seventh day shall be a holy convocation to you: ye shall do no servile work on them, only as many things as will necessarily be done by every soul, this only shall be done by you.

All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation, which in Greek is παρασκευη/paraskeue. The Greek word then and now for Friday is paraskeue/preparation.
There was only one paraskeue/preparation/Friday in passion week, the day before the Sabbath. Passover/1 ULB can fall on any day of the week. Regardless of which day of the week it falls on it does not have or need a day of preparation as the Sabbath does.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2019

David Kent said:
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Sorry I used the wrong words. I should have said: "In the end the Sabbath." I take that as twilight between Sabbath and first day. They arrived at the grave "while it was yet dark. I have no doubt that they would have set out as soon as the sabbath was over. Jesus' body was put in the grave at twilight, as the sabbath was approaching, and was raised exactly 72 hours later, at twilight. That satisfies all timings, In three days, On the third day, Three days and three nights and After three days.

Your chronology is off. See my post directly above. And my post [#60] this thread.

JacksBratt · Dec 14, 2019

Der Alter said:
That is not correct. Where did this phantom "Sabbath" come from? How does a "Sabbath" get in the middle of the week? The only other event that occurred in passion week was the Passover and the first day of Unleavened bread, which are on the same day. Neither Passover nor 1 ULB is a Sabbath. 1/7 ULB is a Holy convocation.

Exodus 12:15-16
(15) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
(16) And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
LXX Exo 12:16
(16) And the first day shall be called holy, and the seventh day shall be a holy convocation to you: ye shall do no servile work on them, only as many things as will necessarily be done by every soul, this only shall be done by you.
All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation, which in Greek is παρασκευη/paraskeue. The Greek word then and now for Friday is paraskeue/preparation.
There was only one paraskeue/preparation/Friday in passion week, the day before the Sabbath. Passover/1 ULB can fall on any day of the week. Regardless of which day of the week it falls on it does not have or need a day of preparation as the Sabbath does.

It's not a "phantom" sabbath.... Don't worry, I was at a loss of how on earth "Friday to Sunday" morning was 3 days and three nights too.

My dad, a biblical man, who has read the bible several time... used to constantly argue with my uncle, my mothers brother, who is a minister/preacher as a career... they would argue over this very topic.

My dad would always state that this 3 days and 3 nights was impossible and "Good Friday" was wrong.

It wasn't until I was told the truth of the Jewish calendar. I was ignorant of this religion... As many people are.

So... here...

The Seven Annual Sabbaths

Now, it makes perfect sense.

His student · Dec 14, 2019

Der Alter said:
Is there something missing from my post? I'm amenable to additional information which will support my post.

No - it reads pretty much as your previous post did. Thank you for the opportunity to read the material a fourth time. It's always informative to read material from early and later Christian era Jewish sources.

I say "pretty much" because in the first post you highlighted the "portion of a day counting as a full day" in red and the 2nd addition you merely put the quote in bold black letters.

Either way you did draw attention to the fact that a portion of a day counted by many as a full day. However - the same is true for any period of darkness counting as a full night.

There is obviously no possible way to get 3 nights out of any scenario other than the one I put forth - certainly not a Friday crucifixion. Some have posited that the period of darkness on the cross counted as one night period. But, since the Lord made it a point to tell us that He would be "in the heart of the earth" for 3 nights, that's an unfounded stretch to explain those 3 nights even if one accepts that there were 3 days.

Besides - He had already risen before dawn on Sunday and so there also can not be 3 days in the heart of the earth.

Although I am not the OP - I am reading along here and participating in the thread - so thank you for cutting and pasting the early and late Jewish sourced material for all of us.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2019

JacksBratt said:
It's not a "phantom" sabbath.... Don't worry, I was at a loss of how on earth "Friday to Sunday" morning was 3 days and three nights too.
...
It wasn't until I was told the truth of the Jewish calendar. I was ignorant of this religion... As many people are.
So... here...
The Seven Annual Sabbaths
Now, it makes perfect sense.

It appears that you found a book somewhere that supports your assumptions/presuppositions and ignore what the Bible says.
The first and seventh days of ULB are NEVER called a sabbath anywhere in the Bible they are both called מקרא־קדשׁ /holy convocations. They differ from a Sabbath in that the preparation and cooking of food is specifically permitted. Neither one is a Sabbath because some anonymous Rabbi says they are.

Exodus 12:16
(16) And in the first day there shall be to you a holy convocation, and in the seventh day a holy convocation; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done by you.

Three days and three nights in heart of earth?

How long was Jesus in the heart of the earth?

Three days and three nights, seventy two hours. (His burial to his resurrection).

From his burial on Friday to Sunday morning

From the time his spirit left his body until seventy two hours later.

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