Yes, murder CAN be justified...

GaveMeJoy said:

God commanded the Israelites to murder every man, woman, child and animal in entire cities. He killed all of the humans on earth except a half dozen. God never changes and Jesus is part of the trinity. God’s ways are above our ways and his acts are justified because he is God even if it doesn’t seem right to us

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OT. God killed sinners.
NT. Christ saved sinners.

Ahermit said:

NT. Christ saved sinners.

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At least, two died sinning in His Presence, but that wasn't brought about by human action...

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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Can you think of any NT examples where Christians warred or killed?

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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Jesus did not kill anyone. He did not lead an armed resistance. He told his disciples, “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.”

In Matthew 5 (WEB) he taught:
21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder; and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

Jesus told his followers if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn and offer the other cheek. He recommended not resisting.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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Killing and murder are not the same. When the state executes a criminal, it is not murder if the penalty for the crime is death. There is NO occasion when the Lord Jesus commands His people to wage war on other people. The Bible makes it clear that the Christian's warfare is spiritual and so are his weapons. How can you love your enemy while you are about to pull the trigger? It was a vexed question for me in the military. I was not likely to be shooting at anyone but the possibility was there. It was on that basis that I eventually secured a discharge.

The world is the world and the kingdom of God is the Kingdom God. We are meant to be preaching the gospel and making disciples. Waging war is not the way to go about it. There may be a case for self-defence. If a Christian kills an unbeliever, that unbeliever goes to hell. What if the person you are shooting at is a Christian? How is that loving the brethren?

Original Happy Camper said:

appears you have a problem here.

It is our interpretation that is flawed not the word of God printed through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

I disregard all Bibles printed based on the Hort and Westcott transcripts

Sola Scripture

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I have no problem. Only few things are needed for a perfect Christian life. You do not need to have 1000 pages of inspired perfect jewish history or jewish poems/songs to behave well and to love God.

There are no Bibles today printed based on the H&W. Nestlé Aland is the actual text for Bible translations.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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Sabbath observance under extreme conditions....

I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!


Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."

I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:


Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, 1 Machabees Chapter 2
...
"So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places."

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

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The actual commandment God gave is you shall not murder, not you shall not kill. Murder is the intentional, unlawful act of killing. God commanded the Jews to kill for many offenses against His commandments.

GaveMeJoy said:

yea I mean he had Joshua kill Achan’s entire family including his children and livestock because achan stole a wedge of Gold. The kids didn’t even know what was going on and God commanded the Israelites to stone him. Also the flood.

but I’m just going off what the Bible says because I believe it is the word of God. However i can respect and appreciate those who do not believe in the Bible

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Because humans breed, and teach their children their same twisted ideologies. It may not be hard to understand why you would kill the entire family as opposed to the one: at the very least revenge will kindle in the survivors, and people can be very patient.

When God orders someone to kill "everything," it is because (clearly) He is God and can see much further down the line than us. The Hebrews never listened anyway, which is why things like racists exists, and people who still remember their hate and want for Hebrews the people.

We always think we know better...

solid_core said:

I do not believe in the Bible, I believe in God.

In my opinion, Bible contains both inspired and uninspired texts.

But again, even if these jewish history records were true, then it would not qualify as a murder.

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God being omniscient and omnipresent had His reasons for killing them, even women & children. It very well could’ve been because of the evil they would’ve committed in their future had they been allowed to live. Many civilizations back then had zero morality and the strong took from the weak whatever they desired. Compassion was sometimes completely absent from entire civilizations where only the strong survived and the weak perished.

BNR32FAN said:

Many civilizations back then had zero morality and the strong took from the weak whatever they desired. Compassion was sometimes completely absent from entire civilizations where only the strong survived and the weak perished.

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Especially since Pentacost/Holy Spirit wasn't "directly" available to humans yet (by consequence). People were literally doomed unless the Most High God saw something in them (like election, or the want to follow His will despite ability).

Those patriarchs before Christ are impressive considering they "had no spirit within them," but still fought to do what the Most High God desired. We take for granted our spiritual conviction in this modern day.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi brothers and sisters of Christ.

About killing and murder... It is explicitly stated in one of the Ten Commandments that murder is wrong. Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher. And in my studies, Thomas Aquinas who was the greatest medieval Christian theologian mentioned THREE things that can make murder justified. But keep in mind, this is in the context of war. And war can be justified by three reasons.

Haha. Unfortunately, I can only remember ONE of those reasons, but I think it's the most provocative. And it is this. Legitimacy of the sovereign... Which basically means that if Jesus (a legitimate sovereign) commands you to wage war against evil entities, you wage war against evil entities.

What do you all think of this?

Click to expand...

We are att war with evil entities, demons. We are to pray for our human enemies, not murder them.

Kaon said:

Especially since Pentacost/Holy Spirit wasn't "directly" available to humans yet (by consequence). People were literally doomed unless the Most High God saw something in them (like election, or the want to follow His will despite ability).

Those patriarchs before Christ are impressive considering they "had no spirit within them," but still fought to do what the Most High God desired. We take for granted our spiritual conviction in this modern day.

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I don’t believe in total depravity. I do believe we are deprived to a point, that we are incapable of perfection but we are also capable of choosing to do good. Look at the story of Cain & Able. Able was, well able, to please God just as his father did but Cain did not. If you consider God’s reaction to Cain murdering Able you can see that Cain failed to meet God’s expectations. Therefore Cain had to have been capable of refraining from killing Able just like Noah was capable of refraining from evil which set him apart from everyone else who died in the flood. If Cain were not capable of restraint on his part then God’s expectations of him would’ve been impossible to meet and Able’s murder would’ve been of no fault on Cain’s part and God’s judgement on Cain could not have been justified.

Bee_Brian said:

Now, I'm not an avid Bible-reader, but I consider myself a philosopher.

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You disqualify your own self. This is like saying, "I have not read the Bible, but because I am a philosopher, I will comment on it.

Bee_Brian said:

What do you all think of

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I think that you are not drawing the proper distinction between murder (which can never be justified) and other species of homicide (which not only may be justified but can sometimes be obligatory).

dqhall said:

Jesus did not kill anyone. He did not lead an armed resistance. He told his disciples, “Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.”

In Matthew 5 (WEB) he taught:
21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder; and ‘Whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment. Whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ will be in danger of the council. Whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.

Jesus told his followers if someone strikes you on the cheek, turn and offer the other cheek. He recommended not resisting.

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Remember also that Jesus is the I AM of the Old Testament.

Aussie Pete said:

Killing and murder are not the same. When the state executes a criminal, it is not murder if the penalty for the crime is death. There is NO occasion when the Lord Jesus commands His people to wage war on other people. The Bible makes it clear that the Christian's warfare is spiritual and so are his weapons. How can you love your enemy while you are about to pull the trigger? It was a vexed question for me in the military. I was not likely to be shooting at anyone but the possibility was there. It was on that basis that I eventually secured a discharge.

The world is the world and the kingdom of God is the Kingdom God. We are meant to be preaching the gospel and making disciples. Waging war is not the way to go about it. There may be a case for self-defence. If a Christian kills an unbeliever, that unbeliever goes to hell. What if the person you are shooting at is a Christian? How is that loving the brethren?

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Jesus came to the rescue of the woman taken in adultery, while in the Old Testament it was death by stoning. I and most here, follow Jesus and aren't I glad.

By Dr J.M. Strawn

Murder is a world magnitude. There is no corner of the globe where this command has not suffered great violence. Murder is an assault on the dignity of man and the nature of God himself because man is created in the image of his Maker.

This commandment is laid across the entire spectrum of killing but is discriminatory because not all killing is murder. Murder is arbitrary, willful, and malicious. It is without legitimate purpose, and there is no inherent necessity for it.

Scripture never speaks of murder as being a matter of degrees; this is a human contrivance. Throughout time, God has only provided one penalty for murder – death.

The context of the meaning of murder is the will of God, not human situations or circumstances. Murder is an unwarranted violent reaction against another person in response to circumstances of whatever kind. This is what the legal apparatus refers to as motive. This commandment says there is no legitimate motive for murder.

By this single commandment, God legitimizes human existence and attaches meaning and value to human life. Murder is an attempt to delegitimize and devalue human life. God says you have no right to do this. There is no such thing as the right to murder. The right of murder has not been extended to governments nor to individuals, (David vs Uriah in 2 Samuel 11).

With each of these commandments, God is driving a wedge between the power to do something and the right to do something; and these are not the same thing. Man attempts to use legal power to overturn this divine prohibition by assigning its own definition to what constitutes life. Today, the fetus is denied protection from being murdered in the womb. From the legal point of view, the unborn has been fully delegitimized and devalued. It has been decreed by law that the fetus has no rights, not even the right to live. Thus, the power of deciding the right of life has been taken out of the hands of the Almighty and placed into human courts. The fetus has been labeled by the courts as a non-person. Thus, it is argued that it is not murder to kill an aggregate of protoplasm. The unborn child then has been completely dehumanized and the fetus now has value only as a marketable commodity.

This philosophy of human life has also affected the old and terminally ill who have become subject to euthanasia when their life becomes burdensome or inconvenient to others. They have simply been pushed aside and marginalized as having no intrinsic value. This also places the right to define the value of a person in the hands of the courts rather than God. Like abortion and all other forms of murder, this is the rationalization of the value of a human life verses the convenience or inconvenience of another person.

The idea is a very simple one, murder the Ten Commandments, then murder the people. We are witnesses to more than one holocaust emerging in our time. Murder is a crowning human overreach of power over the will of God.

This command “You shall not commit murder” generalizes to situations where one has the power to act but not the right to act. This inherently implies that man has the power to murder but, this power must be controlled, regulated, and made to conform to the will of God. The commandment forbids the exercise of this power to all, without exception, and regardless of circumstances.

Bee_Brian said:

Which makes it a mystery why you're disagreeing with me.

I mentioned Legitimacy of the Sovereign, and you said God's ways are higher than man's ways. So why were you disagreeing with me?

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Christ commands that we turn the other cheek and that we love our enemies. We have the explicit command from our King and Sovereign Lord to refuse to harm and to instead love unconditionally.

So the whole premise of "justified murder", in a Christian context, is utter nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

The word murder by definition means the unjustified taking of life.

"Justified murder" is an oxymoron.