Question for rapture people

Revealing Times

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2016
2,845
420
59
Clanton Alabama
✟108,106.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
About the worst and most wrong accusation against me, I have seen.
You have seen my posts, they usually include more scripture than any others, esp you.
You can post scriptures and not understand them. I back up my truths with scriptures, you post scriptures you say means THIS...........but it never does brother. Which is why I never reply to you. I see it as a waste of time when someone is off kilter on almost everything. You are a good guy, but you and I agree on nothing, so its a waste of my time discussing scripture with you tbh.

Your nonsense that The Jewish State of Israel is all of the people from the 12 tribes alive today, is totally unbelievable.
Sure it is............None of the other 10 tribes had seed living in Jerusalem, now that is just not even comprehensible. Just because you ASSUMED it a certain way, don't mean it was, nor does it make that way logical. Looking back, me understanding the same thing at one time you did, now makes ZERO SENSE, Jerusalem was the capital, of course every tribe had seed in Jerusalem !! The LOST TRIBES Sham came from Armstrong, a MAN.......Not God, God says over and over he has a Remnant of all the tribes, He says in the two sticks prophecy that they would become ONE NATION. Just because people can't grasp what God has done doesn't change what he has done.

More fables, totally bereft of any scriptural support.
No one goes to heaven, Jesus said so in plain Words. John 3:13
There is no transformation of our bodies before Judgment and the Book of Life is opened, which isn't until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Zechariah 8:1-8 is a beautiful description of how ALL the Lord's faithful people and their children will live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land.
Its a waste of my time.....

You can't even discern the Rapture.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.

Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

This ties into these passages.....

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions [ chambers ]; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Confirmation that my use of Isaiah 26 applies to the removal / rapture....

"By the heat he means the conflagration. And Isaiah speaks thus: 'Come, my people, enter thou into thy chamber, and shut thy door: hide yourself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation of the Lord be overpast'. And Paul in like manner: 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.'" (Hippolytus, AD240, "On The Antichrist" 64b)

Hippolytus was a student of Irenaeus. Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, Apostle John's student, and actually met and talked with John before John died.

And what did Irenaeus say on the issue?....

"When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, then it is said, 'There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be.'"
(Irenaeus, "Against Heresies" 5.29)

And in the Book of Enoch found in the Qumran scrolls, circa 150-100 BC, refers to a change and removal of the righteous before the tribulation period and gives the reason that it is a warning sign to the people of the earth to repent. (Ancient Book of Enoch 50.1-2)

Enoch is quoted in the NT, so while it is not a canonical book, it is viewed even in scripture as authoritative.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Let's throw in another little nugget that supports Isaiah 26.....

Zephaniah 2:1-3 (NKJV) Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,

2 Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you!
3 Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord's anger.


1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Check out "hidden" in Zephaniah and compare with "hide yourself" in Isaiah 26 in the previous post.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Believing the end times events according to Hippolytes, Enoch or those with theories of things not stated in the Bible, is an error of the worst kind, as it means that the Bible is secondary to them.

Both of the above posts make assertions that are not supported by the Bible prophets.
You don't like my posts because they say in plain Words, things that refute your beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
As those who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' theory, have yet to scripturally prove that the Lord will take His people to heaven, the idea of people Returning with Him, is way off the table.

How is it that many of the early church writers, some of whom knew the apostles, wrote about a removal / rapture of the church, along with several ancient manuscripts found in the Qumran discovery (Dead Sea Scrolls) that also support the view, and you come along and seem to be the fount of all wisdom on this issue?

Enoch has been quoted in the scripture. I didn't even bother to post the book of prophecy by Gad the Seer, which is mentioned in 2 Samuel and his book mentioned in 1 Chronicles 29. He also provides some insight to a removal of the righteous, 1000 years before Messiah.

If it is a matter of listening to you or taking heed to what folks like Irenaeus said.... no brainer... I will side with a early church writer who knew the Apostle John.

You have absolutely no shame. You are willing to attack everyone from the present time clear back to the Apostles simply because they disagree with you. You have an arrogance that is off the charts.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
[QUOTE="Copperhead, post: 74550103, member: 325470"
Check out "hidden" in Zephaniah and compare with "hide yourself" in Isaiah 26 in the previous post.[/QUOTE]
When is an 'undesirable nation' the same as a 'holy nation'?
Zephniah 2:3b....it may be that you will find shelter on the Day of the Lord's anger. REBible
This scripture follows on from Zephaniah 1:14-18 and refers solely to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. A day that we will all experience. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15-17, Luke 21:35

A classic examply of desperation of the 'rapture' believers to fine somwhere; anywhere, a scripture to support that false theory.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
2 Peter 3:7 does not talk about "us". It talks about ungodly men.

Likewise Isaiah 66 is talking about ungodly men. Eating swine flesh and such, that they will come to an end. Well, that would only apply to Hebrews. I am a Gentile and under the Noachide laws. I am allowed to eat anything as long as it is killed properly. Yes, even the Torah outlines the Noachide laws (Genesis 9) in the Mosaic Law, that they apply to gentiles, and Paul along with the Jerusalem council headed by James affirms that.

As for Luke, "those who dwell on the earth", you are a expositor giant, do a study on that idiom in scripture. It almost always refers to those who are not redeemed and judged for destruction.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you ask the LORD, He will show you what you are asking. It's all over the OT.

Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam, was shown all things written in the tablets of heaven, from the beginning of creation into the New Creation (which will begin after the 7,000 year millennial week of creation), and Enoch then wrote of them.
His writings lay the foundations of every doctrine used by all the holy prophets after him, from Genesis to Revelation, and for the reason that the foundations were laid down, those after him do not re-lay the foundations of what was, is, and is to come. Even our LORD and Savior was shown to Enoch, hidden with God, as God, in mystery, and who was to come, and in whose revealed name the righteous would be saved (who call on His revealed name).

In Enoch chapter 50, the prophet Enoch writes of the rapture and the change to the glory of the righteous before the tribulation, which will yet come.

From Moses' revelation of the Living Oracles, which were committed to the namesake people of the New Man Name of the One New Man/our Firstborn (and father by adoption into His name) so as to be a "show and tell" for the Person and work of the Firstborn who was to come and be our Redeemer, and then, on to the last book, the "Revelation of Jesus Christ", the prophets wrote of the Redeemer/Kinsman who would come (and is come, and shall come), and in whose name and by His once for all atonement the righteous would be redeemed.

And yes indeed, the rapture is in the OT, and in the NT, and Enoch first wrote of it it.

I have threads and posts on this forum in which I lay out the Scriptures that make mention of that by the prophets after Enoch, beginning with Moses.
In Leviticus 8, the garments made for beauty and for glory, which the baptized priests don which represent our new man flesh bodies of adoption, before they can enter the temple and be shut in for a seven day consecration period , are a "show and tell" of the entering into our chambers and being shut in, behind the temple in heaven's doors, when the LORD comes out of His place to judge the earth, but gathers His people unto Himself at the doors of heaven, to enter in and be hidden/shut in..

Isaiah 26: 19-21 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Psalm 50:3-5 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psalm 75:2 when I receive/laqach=rapture! the congregation, I will judge (vindicate) uprightly (with perfect justice).
Psalm 75: 3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved ( hearts faint for fear of those things coming): I (will) bear up= reset the pillars of it. Selah.
So Enoch 50, Psalm 50, Isaiah26 and Psalm 75, for beginners, all tell of the rapture before the tribulation -which is to come.

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Copperhead
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I concur with that. Especially Enoch. Just a side note, your post shows Isaiah 50:19-21. It obviously was a typo, as it should be Isaiah 26:19-21. :)
Yes, thank you. I wasn't payin' 'tention, to quote a grandson who fell in the creek once, after being warned not to go on the rocks :) I will correct.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
[QUOTE="Copperhead, post: 74550103, member: 325470"
...This scripture...refers solely to the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. A day that we will all experience.
...

Oh dear!
I have a more sure word of promise and will either be in heaven waiting to return with my LORD to meet the raptured ones in the air who remain alive, and we will all go in, in our regenerated, New Man bodies of flesh, to be shut in, behind the temple in heaven's doors and be consecrated in those bodies as priests and kings to serve Him ( as pr the Living Oracle of Leviticus 8 tells and shows Leviticus 8 and take our places as the "reset pillars" that will rule in the heavenlies for the millinnium, with Him, because when we go up, the principalities and powers, those rulers of darkness in the heavenlies (evil angels/satan's army),will be cast down and out, to earth for that period of the tribulation....
I will NOT be here, on earth, for that time.
1Th 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I will NOT be here, on earth, for that time.
Overconfidence breeds carelessness and to believe you will be taken to heaven without any trials and testing, is a contradiction of Bible teachings.

However, we shall soon see, as the end time events unfold as prophesied.
Those who have held to wrong theories and unbiblical fables, will be very embarrassed then. They won't lose their Salvation, provided they keep strong in their faith. But many will fall away, as prophesied and those who taught and promoted those false doctrines will face a severe judgment. James 3:1
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Overconfidence breeds carelessness and to believe you will be taken to heaven without any trials and testing, is a contradiction of Bible teachings.

No one, no matter of any pre, mid, pre-wrath whatever, is denying that the believers will have trials and testing, the big question is who is the instigator of that testing. It also a question of ecclesiology. And a major feature of that is the redeemed are no longer under condemnation. (Romans 8:1) The testing is only allowed by God in this present age, He is not the source of it. Whereas, the coming end time scenario, it is not a testing of the redeemed, it is a testing of the ungodly to get them to repent and turn to the Messiah.

Since the redeemed, by default, are not under condemnation, what would be the purpose of going thru that period which is intended to test the ungodly? All of our works are as filthy rags. Only the Messiah makes us pure. It would make more sense that we be kept from the trials and testing that will come upon the ungodly. (Revelation 3:10).

And as expounded on by Enoch and alluded to in the scripture, that removal would have a major purpose in being a warning sign to those who dwell on the earth. A major wake up call that what they have dismissed before is about to come crashing down on their heads. The Lord is not only showing His mercy in removing the righteous, but showing His mercy to those that were not a part of it by giving everyone a chance to repent before the calamities come upon the earth.

Just about everyone has some concept of a rapture or removal. Movies, TV, and even goofy date setters have planted the idea in peoples minds. Now it may not have been shown in a positive light or even made fun of, but the idea has still been ingrained in the minds of millions, even if they dismiss it as a hoax or myth. But if they experience seeing the results of it, this could cause many to wake up and realize something is going on. They will have time to repent before the destruction comes upon them.

We have no clue if any during Noah's flood repented when they saw the Lord secure Noah in the Ark 7 days before the flood. But just by doing that, the Lord was showing His mercy. If any did turn to Him after Noah went into the ark, they still were destroyed as a result of their procrastination. But they got one last chance. Likewise, those who turn to the Lord after they experience the removal of the righteous will still have to deal the calamities coming upon the earth and probably be killed for their belief. Again, the penalty of procrastination. But they get one last eye opening chance.

And Satan has gone to great lengths to explain away a removal / rapture. Hundreds of New Age channelers and such have written and spoken on this that the removal will be due to extraterrestrials taking people out that are preventing the earth from moving into a higher dimension. And it will happen suddenly without warning. Those that remain are considered enlightened to move into that higher dimension. Ingraining the idea in people that the removal is a bad thing. The point being, even Satan doesn't negate the idea of a removal. He just uses creative deceptive means to dismiss it away. Satan knows the scripture, and if the idea of a removal was not in there, He would not waste any time trying to explain it away.

So in some sense, how one perceives the Lord that influences their view on these things. Is He a God of mercy, and that mercy goes to great lengths to redeemed the ungodly, A God that desires to save every last person from condemnation so will give every opportunity of redemption possible, or is He a despot that desires to crush any and all quickly and unmercifully. That even up to the very last minute of the tribulation period, even an angel is sent throughout the earth to proclaim the redemption available thru Messiah as one last chance before pouring out His anger should give an idea of how far the Lord goes to reach every last person. (Revelation 14:6-7)

The removal is not only sparing the trials of the tribulation on the redeemed, but also a merciful warning sign to those still on the earth. He went to great lengths to redeem the worst of us. I believe that He will do the same for those during that time. And that will cause all of us to fall down and praise Him even more for all eternity.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: fwGod
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No one, no matter of any pre, mid, pre-wrath whatever, is denying that the believers will have trials and testing, the big question is who is the instigator of that testing. It also a question of ecclesiology. And a major feature of that is the redeemed are no longer under condemnation. (Romans 8:1) The testing is only allowed by God in this present age, He is not the source of it. Whereas, the coming end time scenario, it is not a testing of the redeemed, it is a testing of the ungodly to get them to repent and turn to the Messiah.

Since the redeemed, by default, are not under condemnation, what would be the purpose of going thru that period which is intended to test the ungodly? All of our works are as filthy rags. Only the Messiah makes us pure. It would make more sense that we be kept from the trials and testing that will come upon the ungodly. (Revelation 3:10).

And as expounded on by Enoch and alluded to in the scripture, that removal would have a major purpose in being a warning sign to those who dwell on the earth. A major wake up call that what they have dismissed before is about to come crashing down on their heads. The Lord is not only showing His mercy in removing the righteous, but showing His mercy to those that were not a part of it by giving everyone a chance to repent before the calamities come upon the earth.

Just about everyone has some concept of a rapture or removal. Movies, TV, and even goofy date setters have planted the idea in peoples minds. Now it may not have been shown in a positive light or even made fun of, but the idea has still been ingrained in the minds of millions, even if they dismiss it as a hoax or myth. But if they experience seeing the results of it, this could cause many to wake up and realize something is going on. They will have time to repent before the destruction comes upon them.

We have no clue if any during Noah's flood repented when they saw the Lord secure Noah in the Ark 7 days before the flood. But just by doing that, the Lord was showing His mercy. If any did turn to Him after Noah went into the ark, they still were destroyed as a result of their procrastination. But they got one last chance. Likewise, those who turn to the Lord after they experience the removal of the righteous will still have to deal the calamities coming upon the earth and probably be killed for their belief. Again, the penalty of procrastination. But they get one last eye opening chance.

And Satan has gone to great lengths to explain away a removal / rapture. Hundreds of New Age channelers and such have written and spoken on this that the removal will be due to extraterrestrials taking people out that are preventing the earth from moving into a higher dimension. And it will happen suddenly without warning. Those that remain are considered enlightened to move into that higher dimension. Ingraining the idea in people that the removal is a bad thing. The point being, even Satan doesn't negate the idea of a removal. He just uses creative deceptive means to dismiss it away. Satan knows the scripture, and if the idea of a removal was not in there, He would not waste any time trying to explain it away.

So in some sense, how one perceives the Lord that influences their view on these things. Is He a God of mercy, and that mercy goes to great lengths to redeemed the ungodly, A God that desires to save every last person from condemnation so will give every opportunity of redemption possible, or is He a despot that desires to crush any and all quickly and unmercifully. That even up to the very last minute of the tribulation period, even an angel is sent throughout the earth to proclaim the redemption available thru Messiah as one last chance before pouring out His anger should give an idea of how far the Lord goes to reach every last person. (Revelation 14:6-7)

The removal is not only sparing the trials of the tribulation on the redeemed, but also a merciful warning sign to those still on the earth. He went to great lengths to redeem the worst of us. I believe that He will do the same for those during that time. And that will cause all of us to fall down and praise Him even more for all eternity.

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,563
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,794.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
No one, no matter of any pre, mid, pre-wrath whatever, is denying that the believers will have trials and testing, the big question is who is the instigator of that testing. It also a question of ecclesiology. And a major feature of that is the redeemed are no longer under condemnation. (Romans 8:1) The testing is only allowed by God in this present age, He is not the source of it. Whereas, the coming end time scenario, it is not a testing of the redeemed, it is a testing of the ungodly to get them to repent and turn to the Messiah.

Since the redeemed, by default, are not under condemnation, what would be the purpose of going thru that period which is intended to test the ungodly? All of our works are as filthy rags. Only the Messiah makes us pure. It would make more sense that we be kept from the trials and testing that will come upon the ungodly. (Revelation 3:10).

And as expounded on by Enoch and alluded to in the scripture, that removal would have a major purpose in being a warning sign to those who dwell on the earth. A major wake up call that what they have dismissed before is about to come crashing down on their heads. The Lord is not only showing His mercy in removing the righteous, but showing His mercy to those that were not a part of it by giving everyone a chance to repent before the calamities come upon the earth.

Just about everyone has some concept of a rapture or removal. Movies, TV, and even goofy date setters have planted the idea in peoples minds. Now it may not have been shown in a positive light or even made fun of, but the idea has still been ingrained in the minds of millions, even if they dismiss it as a hoax or myth. But if they experience seeing the results of it, this could cause many to wake up and realize something is going on. They will have time to repent before the destruction comes upon them.

We have no clue if any during Noah's flood repented when they saw the Lord secure Noah in the Ark 7 days before the flood. But just by doing that, the Lord was showing His mercy. If any did turn to Him after Noah went into the ark, they still were destroyed as a result of their procrastination. But they got one last chance. Likewise, those who turn to the Lord after they experience the removal of the righteous will still have to deal the calamities coming upon the earth and probably be killed for their belief. Again, the penalty of procrastination. But they get one last eye opening chance.

And Satan has gone to great lengths to explain away a removal / rapture. Hundreds of New Age channelers and such have written and spoken on this that the removal will be due to extraterrestrials taking people out that are preventing the earth from moving into a higher dimension. And it will happen suddenly without warning. Those that remain are considered enlightened to move into that higher dimension. Ingraining the idea in people that the removal is a bad thing. The point being, even Satan doesn't negate the idea of a removal. He just uses creative deceptive means to dismiss it away. Satan knows the scripture, and if the idea of a removal was not in there, He would not waste any time trying to explain it away.

So in some sense, how one perceives the Lord that influences their view on these things. Is He a God of mercy, and that mercy goes to great lengths to redeemed the ungodly, A God that desires to save every last person from condemnation so will give every opportunity of redemption possible, or is He a despot that desires to crush any and all quickly and unmercifully. That even up to the very last minute of the tribulation period, even an angel is sent throughout the earth to proclaim the redemption available thru Messiah as one last chance before pouring out His anger should give an idea of how far the Lord goes to reach every last person. (Revelation 14:6-7)

The removal is not only sparing the trials of the tribulation on the redeemed, but also a merciful warning sign to those still on the earth. He went to great lengths to redeem the worst of us. I believe that He will do the same for those during that time. And that will cause all of us to fall down and praise Him even more for all eternity.
What you don't, or can't see, is how the Lord will protect His own DURING the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14
Two plainly stated scriptures prove that God's holy people are present on earth during the last few years of this Church Age. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

That you must use the ECF's, the Book of Enoch and the prevalence of the 'rapture' belief, to support that theory, shows up total lack of real Biblical proof of such an idea.

Re; Trials and testing.
We are about to experience the great test of this age, the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, Matthew 3:11-12, Psalms 50:1-3, +, which will winnow out the wicked and find out whose faith will stand up to this test.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

Then all the early church writers were wimps too, since they had no problem writing that a early removal of the righteous before the time of Jacob's trouble / end times tribulation period would occur. The first 200 years of church history, they were surprisingly unified on many issues. Best I can tell, none of them were from N. America.

And it was an established theme in the Essene community of Qumran. A early removal of the righteous is found in many scrolls we have from that community. One scroll from Gad the Seer, mentioned in 1 Chronicles 29 alludes to the same idea. The scroll of Enoch definitely talks about a removal before the end time tribulation period. Yeshua (Jesus) was baptized within 8 miles of that group. It is said that John the Baptist was intimately familiar with that group. The Essenes rejected the Pharisee philosophy.... stuff that makes up the modern Rabbinical Judaism. In their writings, they thought that is was their job to be "a voice in the wilderness to prepare the the way of the Lord" (Isaiah 40:3), the same calling as John the Baptist. In fact, in many of the scrolls from that community, they sound more like biblical Christianity of the Apostles. Again, doesn't seem to be any evidence that they were from N. America.

That this Viet Nam Veteran, N. American Wimp saved by the Grace of Messiah thinks the idea has some validity.... well... I am in very good company.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
What you don't, or can't see, is how the Lord will protect His own DURING the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

You are using a circular reasoning argument. Coming from a default position that the church is not removed before the tribulation period, and Revelation says those saints during that time suffer much during the persecution of the Tribulation period, it must the the church that is being persecuted and therefore there is no evidence of a removal beforehand. It is classic circular reasoning from Philosophy 101 at any university.
 
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
That you must use the ECF's, the Book of Enoch and the prevalence of the 'rapture' belief, to support that theory, shows up total lack of real Biblical proof of such an idea.

So then, you are implying that your view of the scripture is superior to those students that studied under the Apostles or those that studied under those Apostolic students? I am not referring to those that came later like the 4th century, even though there is good evidence even those held the same view. I am talking about those who had direct contact with the Apostles. And since those Apostles were in direct contact with Yeshua at one point, it seems that they would not pass on spurious ideas to their students. Especially John, who was referred specifically as the Disciple that Yeshua loved and entrusted His mother Mary to at the cross.

Yours is quite a claim to be more enlightened in the scripture than they were.... 20 centuries later.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: yeshuasavedme
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is a very judgmental post of yours. You aren't really addressing the replies I gave in answer to your question.
Do you always preach doom and gloom and God beating up His bride before he deems her worthy to come live with him? And how do you know what trials and tribulations I have gone through in my 73+ years of living on this earth? Do you not think that you can possibly be a bit self righteous in this matter of your beliefs?

I said "Oh dear!
I have a more sure word of promise and will either be in heaven waiting to return with my LORD to meet the raptured ones in the air who remain alive, and we will all go in, in our regenerated, New Man bodies of flesh, to be shut in, behind the temple in heaven's doors and be consecrated in those bodies as priests and kings to serve Him ( as pr the Living Oracle of Leviticus 8 tells and shows Leviticus 8 and take our places as the "reset pillars" that will rule in the heavenlies for the millennium, with Him, because when we go up, the principalities and powers, those rulers of darkness in the heavenlies (evil angels/satan's army),will be cast down and out, to earth for that period of the tribulation....
I will NOT be here, on earth, for that time.
1Th 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Th 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, "

Overconfidence breeds carelessness and to believe you will be taken to heaven without any trials and testing, is a contradiction of Bible teachings.

However, we shall soon see, as the end time events unfold as prophesied.
Those who have held to wrong theories and unbiblical fables, will be very embarrassed then. They won't lose their Salvation, provided they keep strong in their faith. But many will fall away, as prophesied and those who taught and promoted those false doctrines will face a severe judgment. James 3:1
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
777
✟97,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What you don't, or can't see, is how the Lord will protect His own DURING the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14...
In the Word of God, from the first prophet, Enoch, the seventh from Adam - who wrote of all things which he was shown that will come until the end of this present creation- to the last revelation of Jesus Christ shown to the Apostle John, the rapture of the congregation of the LORD at the time of the resurrection and regeneration of the body of flesh of all the righteous souls who wait in heaven for that day has been told.
Not one born again in Christ believer will remain on earth when the rapture and resurrection of the dead bodies of the righteous souls who wait in heaven for that day, is fulfilled. No, not one!
As the prophet Enoch first wrote, those who see the saints raptured to glory and see the great cloud of witnesses who come with the LORD in the air to receive their regenerated bodies, who then believe in the name of the Son of God -and in that name are saved- will have to go through the time of the outpouring of the wrath of God on this earth, and those who endure to the end (or are martyred), will be saved and receive the Holy Spirit of rebirth at the end of the time of that Great Tribulation, so says the Word of God.
They will be believers in His name, but they will be without the Glory until Jesus returns and judges them as worthy to enter into the Millennial reign, where all who enter that reign marry, have children, and live the thousand year "Day" before the end of this present millennial week comes.
Those who will be martyred during that time because they believe in His name, will receive their bodies of regeneration at the end of that time, and will reign in heaven, with the saints who were raptured and/or resurrected in bodies before the time of wrath.

Anyone can do the studies on these things. If they want to.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Copperhead
Upvote 0